Qualified Driver Jobs??

[TTDARL]

What a load of tosh, problems drivers lol.
No one said its a given to get a job but surely having a clean safety record is more important then whether you know the values of a company that most dont even stick to anyway themselves lol.
We are train drivers, if you've proved yourself over the last 10 years without having any incidents then that should go a long way, im not against having assessments etc but they at least need to be relevant to the job which many aren't. Tocs love to promote customer service but let's be fair a driver is one area that probably has the least interaction with people on the railway operationally, yes we carry them and talk to them on a PA but thats different to being face to face.
I'm not saying we should go back to BR days with who you know etc but companies don't seem to actually look at your history much about how you've done the job but more about meeting requirements normally set by people who've never done the job themselves.

Train driving in 2022 onwards is not just about the driving. With all TOCS now, they want someone with the capability and recognition that the role does / can involve a customer service element whether face to face or the way you drive the train etc. Researching the TOC to which you are applying shows that you have some motivation to join that specific TOC and are displaying the skills and motivation to go above and beyond to get the job. A perfect safety record tells only part of a drivers history. The interviews and assessments for qualifieds are designed to assess various micro skills which can help build a picture to establish whether there are likely to be company / driver incompatibility issues in the future. They don’t want a driver set in their ways. They want to see flexibility / open mindedness to the change, not someone set in their ways bringing them issues / bad habits / problems. A number of drivers at my place with good safety records and no issues have been unsuccessful at moving from my place to other TOCS as they’ve solely relied on their experience and safety record as a given they’ll get the job.

 

[Class2ldn]

Incompatible in what way? Sorry but you sound like some bod who's trying to make the job out to be more then it is, we drive trains, it doesn't matter if its up north or down south , commuter or express, we all do essentially the same thing.
I'm all for researching the company and having a good rules knowledge but going into micro skills etc is just ridiculous.
Its not a complicated job is it, all these new micro skills and NTS etc are a complete waste of time.
A good manager will know whether the person sitting in front of them is a good match, problem now is a lot of managers are all getting the job after 2-3 years of driving which is nowhere near enough time to be assessing other people's skills when they are still learning the job themselves.
I remember going to a job once and you had to do a presentation and the 2 managers said the last 2 candidates walked out lol, said it was something HR set up and they just had to score them and report back.
If you think that sort of approach is a good thing then god help the railway in the future .

 

[TTDARL]

Incompatible in what way? Sorry but you sound like some bod who's trying to make the job out to be more then it is, we drive trains, it doesn't matter if its up north or down south , commuter or express, we all do essentially the same thing.
I'm all for researching the company and having a good rules knowledge but going into micro skills etc is just ridiculous.
Its not a complicated job is it, all these new micro skills and NTS etc are a complete waste of time.
A good manager will know whether the person sitting in front of them is a good match, problem now is a lot of managers are all getting the job after 2-3 years of driving which is nowhere near enough time to be assessing other people's skills when they are still learning the job themselves.
I remember going to a job once and you had to do a presentation and the 2 managers said the last 2 candidates walked out lol, said it was something HR set up and they just had to score them and report back.
If you think that sort of approach is a good thing then god help the railway in the future .

Times change as we all know. This is how it is whether we agree or disagree with it. There are a lot more factors involved in the job nowadays other than just driving the train. You are set in your opinion and mindset I see. Each to their own.

 

[Class2ldn]

Indeed, good to have different opinions as if nothing else it makes a good debate lol

 

[Need2]

There are a lot more factors involved in the job nowadays

Such as?

 

[TTDARL]

Non technical skills
Incidents (everything is recorded these days in comparison to years ago when drivers had incidents that went unrecorded)
A lot more TPWS on the infrastructure for example leading to a lot more incidents.
More pressure to tick the right boxes within the TOC
Diagrams more intense leading to fatigue often
TOCS / Customer are more demanding these days
Colleagues encouraged to report everything nowadays whereas years ago things could be dealt with between said parties without the need for escalation.

 

[12LDA28C]

Non technical skills
Incidents (everything is recorded these days in comparison to years ago when drivers had incidents that went unrecorded)
A lot more TPWS on the infrastructure for example leading to a lot more incidents.
More pressure to tick the right boxes within the TOC
Diagrams more intense leading to fatigue often
TOCS / Customer are more demanding these days
Colleagues encouraged to report everything nowadays whereas years ago things could be dealt with between said parties without the need for escalation.

Despite your claims to the contrary, a good train driver is still a good train driver. Someone who has a clean record probably has good 'non technical skills' anyway and just because they've been given a fancy new name, doesn't make them any more or less desirable than they have ever been. A TPWS 'incident' is frequently a lot of fuss about very little, and although diagrams may be more 'intense' (I assume you mean productive) I am sure the Hidden recommendations are being adhered to - if not maybe you should speak to your Union rep if 'illegal' diagrams are being produced without sufficient breaks, Rest Days etc.

There may be more perceived 'pressure' than in the 'good old days' but train driving is still essentially the same job. If you can keep your nose clean and, more importantly, own up if you make a mistake, you should still have a job for as long as you want it.

 

[TTDARL]

Nowhere in any of my posts do I use the word ‘illegal’

Despite your claims to the contrary, a good train driver is still a good train driver. Someone who has a clean record probably has good 'non technical skills' anyway and just because they've been given a fancy new name, doesn't make them any more or less desirable than they have ever been. A TPWS 'incident' is frequently a lot of fuss about very little, and although diagrams may be more 'intense' (I assume you mean productive) I am sure the Hidden recommendations are being adhered to - if not maybe you should speak to your Union rep if 'illegal' diagrams are being produced without sufficient breaks, Rest Days etc.

There may be more perceived 'pressure' than in the 'good old days' but train driving is still essentially the same job. If you can keep your nose clean and, more importantly, own up if you make a mistake, you should still have a job for as long as you want it.

Nowhere in any post have I used or inferred ‘illegal’ as YOU put it. I was asked a question to which I’ve simply answered from my point of view. A comparison of now to way back when. We are all humans and are susceptible to errors. Having a clean safety record alone, does not make a driver a good driver. There are drivers that have had incidents but on paper have a ‘clean’ record which isn’t the case. I’m sure some have had luck on their side and have had reportable incidents that have gone undetected for whatever reason.

 

[12LDA28C]

Nowhere in any of my posts do I use the word ‘illegal’

Nowhere in any post have I used or inferred ‘illegal’ as YOU put it. I was asked a question to which I’ve simply answered from my point of view. We are all humans and are susceptible to errors. Having a clean safety record alone, does not make a driver a good driver.

Intriguing. What, in your opinion makes a good driver?

 

[TTDARL]

Attitude
NTS skills
Safety record
Ability to follow rules and procedures
Flexibility
Openness to change
Recognition that they are not always right and can accept valid criticism/ feedback
The list goes on

 

[Class2ldn]

Attitude
NTS skills
Safety record
Ability to follow rules and procedures
Flexibility
Openness to change
Recognition that they are not always right and can accept valid criticism/ feedback
The list goes on

Most of them are part of being a driver anyway ? Like I said before NTS skills are a waste of time and are just something someone who gets paid a lot of money to think that rubbish up has implemented.
Attitude I understand but its not hard to apply it for an interview.
How would you show recognition that you are not always right in an interview? Not really seeing the connection between that and a good driver tbh, the railway is always evolving so its part of it anyway and not really something you can self promote in an interview and imo doesn't have much relevance tbh.
To me if you can drive a train with a good safety record, be a team player , confident on your own and fit in well with your colleagues then you are far ahead of some of the people on the railway and would go much further in my eyes to prove you are good at this job rather then some silly NTS rubbish.

 

[12LDA28C]

Attitude
NTS skills
Safety record
Ability to follow rules and procedures
Flexibility
Openness to change
Recognition that they are not always right and can accept valid criticism/ feedback
The list goes on

Just a suggestion, but if a driver does not have those attributes (especially for example NTS skills and following Rules, in particular) then the chances are they would not have a clean safety record, although I agree that of course anyone can make a mistake, the thing is to accept that you've done so and learn from it going forward.

Flexibility comes as part of the job as regards shiftwork and any additional flexibility is usually part of Ts & Cs built into a roster for example a driver can be moved X-amount of hours off Spare, and volunteering to work additional overtime / anything not on your schedule card, whilst helpful and desirable from the company's point of view, rarely if ever gets recorded and would be unlikely to come up in discussion or references if a qualified driver were applying for a vacancy at another operator.

Most qualified driver positions you see advertised (for example Colas, recruiting right now) do not ask for excellent technical skills, nor 'openness to change' - they ask for a clean driving record which is the best measure of how 'good' a driver is.

 

[387star]

Incompatible in what way? Sorry but you sound like some bod who's trying to make the job out to be more then it is, we drive trains, it doesn't matter if its up north or down south , commuter or express, we all do essentially the same thing.
I'm all for researching the company and having a good rules knowledge but going into micro skills etc is just ridiculous.
Its not a complicated job is it, all these new micro skills and NTS etc are a complete waste of time.
A good manager will know whether the person sitting in front of them is a good match, problem now is a lot of managers are all getting the job after 2-3 years of driving which is nowhere near enough time to be assessing other people's skills when they are still learning the job themselves.
I remember going to a job once and you had to do a presentation and the 2 managers said the last 2 candidates walked out lol, said it was something HR set up and they just had to score them and report back.
If you think that sort of approach is a good thing then god help the railway in the future .

Out of interest how long do you think you should be driving before you become a Manager?
I've been driving almost six years which is nothing although passing five certainly felt like a milestone

 

[Class2ldn]

Well personally I think 7-10 years , 5 at least for an instructor.
Dont get me wrong there may be some good managers with less experience but from personal experience all the ones with a couple of years are terrible, have no people skills to deal with other drivers and tend to be on a power trip.
Problem is there's not many people who want to be managers so they'd probably have no-one to fill the vacancies.
I also don't think you should be able to jump straight into the role, I think it should be a progression from something like an instructor.

 

[Amex88]

Attitude
NTS skills
Safety record
Ability to follow rules and procedures
Flexibility
Openness to change
Recognition that they are not always right and can accept valid criticism/ feedback
The list goes on

Yes and no. as the other person stated, Companies want a clean record. Normally this means you are a good driver as you have followed the rules and maintained the knowledge you were taught ( assuming it was correct ) and kept on implimenting that. I am dead sure 98% of driver do not think they are always right. This whole NTS for me personally is a little too deep. I think its more about using your brain and doing your upmost not to mess up

 

[secretd.river]

Yes and no. as the other person stated, Companies want a clean record. Normally this means you are a good driver as you have followed the rules and maintained the knowledge you were taught ( assuming it was correct ) and kept on implimenting that. I am dead sure 98% of driver do not think they are always right. This whole NTS for me personally is a little too deep. I think its more about using your brain and doing your upmost not to mess up

Yeah I definitely think it’s more about your record.

Most companies only tend to talk about NTS in interviews for Instructor and management roles.

Ask 90% of drivers what NTS are that they use and they won’t list them.

Driving record and experiences tell employers enough. My opinion anyway.

 

[43066]

Yeah I definitely think it’s more about your record.

Most companies only tend to talk about NTS in interviews for Instructor and management roles.

Ask 90% of drivers what NTS are that they use and they won’t list them.

Driving record and experiences tell employers enough. My opinion anyway.

Yep.

Ultimately, why are NTS a big thing? To prevent incidents. If you have two candidates for a driver position in front of you: one has had a clean record for ten years, the other talks a good game about NTS but has a record as long as your arm. Who would you hire? Someone who has driven consistently without making mistakes clearly implements a version of NTS that works for them!

The customer service guff always makes me laugh - obviously it’s pushed and you need to say the “right” thing in interview, but it’s a tiny part of the job. It’s basically limited to PA announcements, and not even that if you have a guard! Anyone who wants to spend a lot of time interacting with passengers should not become a train driver.

 

[Amex88]

Yep.

Ultimately, why are NTS a big thing? To prevent incidents. If you have two candidates for a driver position in front of you: one has had a clean record for ten years, the other talks a good game about NTS but has a record as long as your arm. Who would you hire? Someone who has driven consistently without making mistakes clearly implements a version of NTS that works for them!

The customer service guff always makes me laugh - obviously it’s pushed and you need to say the “right” thing in interview, but it’s a tiny part of the job. It’s basically limited to PA announcements, and not even that if you have a guard! Anyone who wants to spend a lot of time interacting with passengers should not become a train driver.

Bang on the money. Well said. Thats a fact. This job is not all its made out to be. I find we dont get paid to 'drive a train' but to make the right decisions while doing that. And plus putting our own life at risk at high speeds, not the best feeling in the world while others make a hell of a lot more.

 

[baz962]

EMR just put an advert for qualified at Kettering.

 

[Rockhopper]

Just to put it out there - if you're prepared to atleast say you'll go through the process, I can't see for a second why a qualified driver couldn't apply as an apprentice - say if you desperately needed you relocate etc and were prepared to take the pay cut for 9 months or so.

It could well be that they would take you on as qualified anyway if you impressed at an interview stage.

Unless I'm very much mistaken - though it must fall foul of discrimination rules if they were to say anyone but qualified drivers can apply - surely having a key or not doesn't actually matter if you're prepared to go back to training school?

You are indeed very much mistaken! There are certain "protected characteristics" that it's illegal to discriminate against.

• age
• gender reassignment
• being married or in a civil partnership
• being pregnant or on maternity leave
• disability
• race including colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin
• religion or belief
• sex
• sexual orientation

Being qualified to do the job isn't one of them!

 

[Class2ldn]

I'm pretty sure there's a 99% chance no qualified driver would go through training again just to get a job, normally if you drop HR a message they let qualified apply for trainee positions,obviously depends on the TOC.

 

[12LDA28C]

You are indeed very much mistaken! There are certain "protected characteristics" that it's illegal to discriminate against.

• age
• gender reassignment
• being married or in a civil partnership
• being pregnant or on maternity leave
• disability
• race including colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin
• religion or belief
• sex
• sexual orientation

Being qualified to do the job isn't one of them!

Notwithstanding the fact that a qualified driver would be mad to take a 60-70% drop in pay during the training process before becoming 'qualified' as a driver, again! Also, I very much doubt that the ORR would issue a new ETDL to a driver who already holds one.

 

[driverd]

You are indeed very much mistaken! There are certain "protected characteristics" that it's illegal to discriminate against.

• age
• gender reassignment
• being married or in a civil partnership
• being pregnant or on maternity leave
• disability
• race including colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin
• religion or belief
• sex
• sexual orientation

Being qualified to do the job isn't one of them!

It's not a protected characteristic, no, but to rule out a candidate as unsuitable for a role because they already do the role would likely be something you could challenge in court if the job description doesn't explicitly forbid it. You'd be discriminating against someone who may really want the apprenticeship qualification (you never know) on the basis that they're already displaying the necessary skills etc.

Notwithstanding the fact that a qualified driver would be mad to take a 60-70% drop in pay during the training process before becoming 'qualified' as a driver, again! Also, I very much doubt that the ORR would issue a new ETDL to a driver who already holds one.

I simply highlighted it as there's every possibility someone could be desperate to relocate (ie: if their partner needs to move for work etc). How would re-issuing an ETDL differ from someone who has left the grade long enough for the status as a qualified driver to lapse? Surely it'd just be a re-issue of the licence under the CMS of a different operator, much as when someone changes employer.

 

[12LDA28C]

It's not a protected characteristic, no, but to rule out a candidate as unsuitable for a role because they already do the role would likely be something you could challenge in court if the job description doesn't explicitly forbid it. You'd be discriminating against someone who may really want the apprenticeship qualification (you never know) on the basis that they're already displaying the necessary skills etc.



I simply highlighted it as there's every possibility someone could be desperate to relocate (ie: if their partner needs to move for work etc). How would re-issuing an ETDL differ from someone who has left the grade long enough for the status as a qualified driver to lapse? Surely it'd just be a re-issue of the licence under the CMS of a different operator, much as when someone changes employer.

If I worked for the ORR, and was asked to issue a load of new ETDLs for recently qualified drivers I would certainly flag up the fact that one candidate was already in possession of a current valid licence which would be decidedly irregular.

Anyhow, I don't believe a TOC or FOC HR department would allow a current qualified driver to join a trainee driver apprenticeship scheme - and would the Government agree to subsidise a trainee driver to the tune of £20k+ to do training they had already done? I doubt it.

 

[43066]

to rule out a candidate as unsuitable for a role because they already do the role would likely be something you could challenge in court if the job description doesn't explicitly forbid it

It wouldn’t.

 

[Rockhopper]

Absolutely agree, it wouldn’t and you’d be mad to push it that far.

 

[driverd]

Absolutely agree, it wouldn’t and you’d be mad to push it that far.

Of course, I'm not encouraging or suggesting doing that - just taking it to, what I thought was, the logical extreme.

So, from the conversation I've had with one of the reps they'd suggest you could take it on that road on the basis that, assuming all other things being equal (which is about as hypothetical as it gets really), you're no less suitable than anyone else to undertake that training, thus you'd be ruled out for something that's out of your control, and that's the unfair bit that you'd challenge.

I have absolutely no expertise in this field and won't pretend that I do - so, out of interest, what bit of this is wrong? Is this more akin to an internal process?

 

[43066]

I have absolutely no expertise in this field and won't pretend that I do - so, out of interest, what bit of this is wrong?

Essentially it’s not a prohibited type discrimination, as per the equalities act examples outlined above (and there are one or two others such as union membership, spent criminal convictions etc.). Even for most of these indirect discrimination can be permitted if it can be objectively justified. In the UK you can generally discriminate, just so long as it isn’t on the basis of a reason prohibited by law.

To put another way, if it’s fine for companies to specify a minimum level of qualifications and discriminate on that basis, why wouldn’t the opposite also be true?

It’s a difficult to see where he’s coming from with that.

 

[LeGrimpeur]

Bumping this. Mods is it possible to make this a sticky?

 

[Firestarter]

EMR looking for qualified Drivers for St Pancras

Job Vacancy at East Midlands Railway: Qualified Mainline Driver - London St Pancras

We are proud to be One Team at East Midlands Railway (EMR). We are passionate about keeping people safe, delighting our customers, doing the right thing and putting customers at the heart of our sustainable railway for the East Midlands. With...

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