It’s an interesting discussion which keeps coming up, there really needs to be a sprinter / turbo replacement program across the uk. Sadly though I can’t see it happening any time soon, I know some operators (Scotrail and SWR) have long term aims to replace their diesel fleet, but whether they’re suitable to cascade to other operators is a thread for another day.
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GWR Class 165/166 Turbo Diagrams
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HamworthyGoods
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The 158s/159s being aluminium bodied stock where you can’t repair corrosion easily are destined for once place when they are replaced, scrap. They’ll be 35-40 years old!
The December 2019 briefly saw most Portsmouth to Cardiff trains as five carriages
The current situation is embarrassing and it's the Government to blame
Kite159
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Yes it's the fault of the government that the 769s for use in the Thames Valley are so late...
RPI
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[Sarcastic face] Yes, partly the government are to blame for reopening the Okehampton line, I mean that uses two 150's a day that weren't used then.......
(I cant believe that I'm almost defending this poor excuse for a government!)[Sarcastic face] Yes, partly the government are to blame for reopening the Okehampton line, I mean that uses two 150's a day that weren't used then.......
At the risk of the admins getting their naughty stick out, if more electrification had been carried out (either 3rd Rail or OHLE) we could have cascaded more diesels west rather than scrapping a micro fleet of 15 year old Desiros or warm storing the 379s. Even better OHLE Newbury to Plymouth/Exmouth/Paignton and use the 379s on Exmouth!!
CR165022
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I know it wont be happening any time soon, but something has emerged recently suggesting that chiltern are looking to order new stock, if this were to go ahead, and the new stock ended up replacing the 165s, they could head over to GWR, that is if they even need them by then!
HamworthyGoods
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And GWR is also looking to order new stock… the 165s are over 30 years old now and reaching life expiry.
Snow1964
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All GWR DMUs (classes 150, 158, 165, 166) are over 30 years old. I think average age is 32 or 33 years.
It would probably take at least 3 years to get a full replacement fleet in service (and could easily be nearer 5 years)
The problems with the diagrams is that aging units become unreliable and spares can be hard to get, so need to gradually reduce number (or percentage) of units expected to be available for service over time. GWR are currently being unrealistic and multiple trains are now short formed every weekday.
Snow1964
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Currently on 1F12 09:23 Portsmouth-Cardiff with a 2car 158.
6 mins late approaching Bath Spa, 14 mins late leaving due to platform congestion and churn. Including a photo to show how rammed it was
What bright spark thought 2car trains are suitable for Portsmouth-Cardiff line.
6 mins late approaching Bath Spa, 14 mins late leaving due to platform congestion and churn. Including a photo to show how rammed it was
What bright spark thought 2car trains are suitable for Portsmouth-Cardiff line.
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Bath Spa is absolute chaos at the moment, all thanks to the Christmas markets.
It seems GWR were perfectly happy to cancel all services on the strike day last week, swamping the bus network so their services wouldn’t be busy, but pretend to not know of any event when it comes to deciding what services are short formed.
Huh? They didn't have any choice in the matter if the drivers were all on strike.
During the strikes the still run an hourly Bristol Temple Meads to London service, this was running as with every other strike, but the decision was made to not stop at Bath as they normally do. As I understand it this was to avoid crowding from the Christmas Markets.
RPI
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Bet you'd sooner have a 5 car turbo.... oh, wait, they're not suitable either according to many on here....
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
I definitely would rather have a 5 car Turbo, especially since the aftermath of a complaint I made (about a guard hammering his fist on the window at me) put a stop to them wrongfully closing all declassified first class sections out of use.
HamworthyGoods
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No bright spark decided 2 car trains are suitable, however if you have a 4 car and 2 cars fail with no replacement available would you prefer 2 car or 0 cars?
It's rather obvious a 5 car train is better than a 2 car.... However the answer quite simply is that there are times of day that they aren't. The 5 car trains are often loaded to the point of full and standing around Bath and Bristol at rush hour, you cannot argue that at that point they are not suitable.
Perhaps not that a 2 car is suitable, but with GWR being very aware that the Bath Christmas Markets are happening would it not have been a better idea to allocate a 3 car from for example the Severn Beach Line, and make sure as many trains as possible through Bath have capacity.
Snow1964
Established Member
As the 2car was uncomfortable and squashed, probably 0 cars, at least that way could get money back through delay repay.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
I agree if my journey was for leisure or did not rely on tight connections. I personally believe if the conditions are clearly unacceptable, customers should be able to choose whether to squeeze on, or take the next train at no extra cost and be compensated for the longer journey. This was LNER's practice during COVID-19 whenever a 5 carriage service was put on in lieu of a 9 or 10 carriage one.
RPI
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And then 2 trainloads try to squeeze onto the following train taking you back to square one.
The fact is that GWR have their hands tied with an aging fleet of DMU'S that probably won't be replaced anytime soon, the engineering guys at Exeter and I'm sure other depots literally bend over backwards to get what they can into service.
They can't magic units out of thin air for Bath Market, taking units off the Beach line is just robbing peter to pay Paul.
My point is that they could move a 3 car that was running on the Beach line today to the Cardiff - Portsmouth, and the 2 onto the beach line, considering loading on the Beach line is much lighter. As much as two lines are suffering, I’d say it’s better than one line suffering far worse.
Taking one unit, 158747, Left Bristol this morning 5:30, has been to Exmouth, then to Penzance, then a return to Plymouth and back to Exeter, covering a grand total of 596 miles according to RTT. Yes, I know there's stock shortages, however for a 30-year-old piece of kit that is insane. You could not expect your car to do that!
The Point is, you are going to get wear and tear, shortforms will happen, having something is better than nothing. The current situation is far from ideal, however GWR are doing their best and it is clear to see that with the resources they have got.
I am honestly happy with whatever turns up, as it really is miracle after doing that many miles every day that the units still manage to be out in service every day, the maintenance turnaround times at the minute must be insane, but you have got to give some slack to (and I know it differs every day) a 30-year-old train doing 600 miles every day.
I know they should have been replaced, or should be being replaced now, but I am more than happy with whatever comes around the corner, as long as me and my fellow passengers can get where we are going, regardless of it being a 158, 165, 166, 150 or Castle
The Point is, you are going to get wear and tear, shortforms will happen, having something is better than nothing. The current situation is far from ideal, however GWR are doing their best and it is clear to see that with the resources they have got.
I am honestly happy with whatever turns up, as it really is miracle after doing that many miles every day that the units still manage to be out in service every day, the maintenance turnaround times at the minute must be insane, but you have got to give some slack to (and I know it differs every day) a 30-year-old train doing 600 miles every day.
I know they should have been replaced, or should be being replaced now, but I am more than happy with whatever comes around the corner, as long as me and my fellow passengers can get where we are going, regardless of it being a 158, 165, 166, 150 or Castle
I must admit, I don't know Salisbury's Finest 100%, but there has always seemed to be more flexibility in the fleet.
If it were as simple as that it would have been done - a number of the 16x fleet aren’t allowed through the Severn Tunnel owing to ongoing reliability issues with the inter-car sliding doors for but one example of why it may not have been possible.
158s are very, very much not ideal for the Beach line too.
I think the issue is 2 car units are often daily occurrence on that route, and fairly often on more than one diagram - and the capacity issues have been made even worse by the Bath Market.
A quick look on JourneyCheck a couple of Fridays ago showed 3 services in a row short formed to 2 coaches with reports of them being full and standing from Fratton or Southampton towards Bristol. GWR may have their hands tied with aging (and seemingly increasingly unreliable) stock, but it’s the passengers who suffer. Would be good if the short forming was shared out with other routes as it seems the Cardiff - Portsmouth passengers have to put up with more than their fair share of it!
RPI
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The short forming moat definitely is shared out though, a day doesn't go by where at least one Devon metro diagram isn't short formed or one Barnstaple diagram.
Snow1964
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It’s not just the 4 weeks of Bath market affecting GWR Wessex and West, if you add in school summer holiday to beaches of Weymouth and St Ives, Cheltenham festival, Henley Regatta week etc (more events than I intend to list), can find 30+ weeks a year where services need strengthening on an unelectrified GWR operated line (luckily not all at same time).
I know GWR is short of diesel units (and being 30+ years old is a further problem, as unable to maintain them all to unrestricted standards due to defects), but just doing nothing until the 769s might one year eventually enter service isn’t a very good contingency plan (did DfT really think they could just wait indefinitely).
To put it into perspective, GWR diagrams for 30 weeks needing strengthening all day (even if different lines different weeks) is about 3 times the service time each year of a unit doing one morning and one evening rush hour extra in London area.
RPI
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You're not wrong, but what alternative is there? 150202 has been away nearly a year, a 158 was written off, it seems everywhere on the the former Wessex Trains patch is bursting at the seams, I'd like nothing more than for these short formings to be a thing of the past as I spend every working day having to put up with it. But until some other units become available or a new fleet is ordered, it just won't get better sadly.
What I do know is that those within GWR on the front line, those in train planning/Area Operations managers really do bend over backwards to get the fleet out as best as they can.
An IET to Axminster the other night is a prime example, it would have been easy to cancel the train but an effort was made to get an empty IET up from Laira to run the service. A few weeks back we saw several Exmouth Paignton services operated between Exeter St Davids and Paignton using 2+4 sets on a couple of days when all but about 2 of the Metro diagrams were short formed.
In those circumstances it would have been quite easy to just carry on and cancel/short form using the usual excuses, but certain people pulled out the stops, including traincrews who helped out.
150249
Member
Did the iet go up to Barnstaple?
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