• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Mark Harper will be on Laura Kuenssberg's programme today (27/11/2022 BBC1 09:00)

Status
Not open for further replies.

brad465

Established Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
8,684
Location
Taunton or Kent
With this government it would not surprise me. Lay the blame at the RMT for the Xmas strikes
I'm not in the industry so can't speak for RMT members, but I could see a scenario where it is just about accepted, for a combination of reasons that include fear of backlash if Christmas strikes go ahead, avoiding loss of pay if those strikes go ahead, and at the same time hope that before April 2024 things improve enough to avoid compulsory redundancy.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

800001

Established Member
Joined
24 Oct 2015
Messages
5,276
I'm not in the industry so can't speak for RMT members, but I could see a scenario where it is just about accepted, for a combination of reasons that include fear of backlash if Christmas strikes go ahead, avoiding loss of pay if those strikes go ahead, and at the same time hope that before April 2024 things improve enough to avoid compulsory redundancy.
Things won’t improve. TOC I work at been told to save £100million per year.
 

Mike395

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
3,102
Location
Bedford
I'd be amazed if that deal was accepted outright without a members' vote on it. A solid basis for further negotiation I suspect is the best we can hope for in terms of it leading to any progression on resolving the dispute.
 

The Middle

Member
Joined
18 Jun 2022
Messages
130
Location
Uk
I feel as thought the fact the offer is being released likely means it has been rejected in negotiations and is just a means of stepping up the PR war.
 

Annetts key

Established Member
Joined
13 Feb 2021
Messages
2,908
Location
West is best
Surely accepting that deal will be electoral suicide for Mick Lynch
It’s not Mick’s decision. The RMT National Executive Committee will look at the details and decide if it’s worthwhile putting it to the members. As well as the details from the companies/RDG, they will take feedback from the representatives, who in turn receive feedback from the membership.
 

brad465

Established Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
8,684
Location
Taunton or Kent
Now has a BBC article:


The group representing train companies in the rail dispute has made its first offer to the RMT union in a bid to stop strikes in the run-up to Christmas.
The latest round of strikes by RMT members at Network Rail and 14 train companies is due to begin in nine days.
The Rail Delivery Group said its offer includes a pay increase for staff of up to 8% over two years.
It urged the RMT to put the offer to its members to "remove the threat" of industrial action over Christmas.
In the ongoing row over pay, working conditions and job security for rail workers, industrial action is currently due to take place across four 48-hour periods on 13-14 and 16-17 December, and 3-4 and 6-7 January.
The RDG described the offer it made on Sunday is an "outline framework agreement", which includes a package of proposed changes to current working practices like repurposing or closing ticket offices, with staff having new multiskilled roles, and Sunday working where it is not in place already.
These would help to fund a pay rise for staff of 4% this year, backdated to the beginning of the financial year, followed by another 4% next year.
It also includes a guarantee of no compulsory redundancies until April 2024.

The group called on the union to avoid "upsetting the travel plans of millions and cause real hardship for businesses which depend on Christmas custom".
A spokesperson for the Rail Delivery Group said: "This is a fair and affordable offer in challenging times, providing a significant uplift in salary for staff.
"If approved by the RMT, implementation could be fast-tracked to ensure staff go into Christmas secure in the knowledge that they will receive this enhanced pay award early in the New Year alongside a guarantee of job security until April 2024."
If the RMT union accepts this outline offer, it would then go to individual train companies and local representatives to decide whether or not to accept it.
It did not immediately respond to the BBC's request for comment, but its boss Mick Lynch has said after recent talks that he was "hopeful" and that the dispute was "definitely moving".
Other proposals by the Rail Delivery Group include a move to driver-only trains where possible.
The group said there would be opportunities for redeployment and voluntary redundancy programmes for those rail workers who wished to leave.
But this is separate to negotiations with Network Rail, which employs about half of the workers in the dispute.
Network Rail, which maintains the railways throughout Britain, first made an offer back in the summer and is still in negotiations to try to agree some areas of change which might allow its current pay offer to increase.
Those talks have been continuing over the weekend.
But it says that if strikes are to be called off, it will need to happen by the end of Monday to avoid disruption for passengers.

Noticed also that the Network Rail side of things has yet to be decided.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
9,102
Doesn't look different to what they have already rejected at NR. So basically no further forward at all.
 

winks

Member
Joined
11 Jun 2009
Messages
599
Do they (the RDG etc) need to be more explicit in terms of how DOO saves money? As guards or On Board staff are still needed ?
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
8,389
It is all about vote share. With FPTP you can win a tonne of seats with 45% and barely any with 25% (See LD in 2010,)

Tories are currently polling well under 30% - If that were to happen with Lab at 45% they are in wipeout territory
Not neccessarily, you also need to concentrate your vote.

1983 General Election:- Labour and the Liberals had a similar vote share at 25% each but Labour still got many more seats than the Liberals did despite the similar vote share.
 

Annetts key

Established Member
Joined
13 Feb 2021
Messages
2,908
Location
West is best
I understand that Network Rail have verbally discussed a new possible offer. There will be another meeting tomorrow.

Let’s see if they make a better, improved offer in writing, that takes account of the areas of concern from the unions.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,638
Do they (the RDG etc) need to be more explicit in terms of how DOO saves money? As guards or On Board staff are still needed ?
3 decades since there have been guards on second members of staff on Southern, Southeastern, Anglia metro services , Thameslink, most Chiltern services or GW Thames valley services might suggest otherwise...

I'm not surprised by the offer and it is a massive failure by the unions not to notice the seismic shift that is going to occur whether they like it or not. The industry can't afford not to deal with all the cans kicked down the road previously.

Lots of new rolling stock around or will be shortly that enables another wave of DOO on the scale of what BR did.

I haven't used a ticket office window since 2008 (machine, online, oyster, contactless, smartcard instead) and new initiatives like Project Oval (rolling out in 2024...) will deliver another wave of reductions in ticket sales by staff.
 

Towers

Established Member
Joined
30 Aug 2021
Messages
2,540
Location
UK
Do they (the RDG etc) need to be more explicit in terms of how DOO saves money? As guards or On Board staff are still needed ?
Depends which road they want to go down. Southern OBS style means salaries stay the same but big savings in training and ongoing competence management. If they went to extremes then potentially mass redundancies in 2024 and replacement with a cheap tickets-only grade.
 

fishwomp

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2020
Messages
895
Location
milton keynes
Depends which road they want to go down. Southern OBS style means salaries stay the same but big savings in training and ongoing competence management. If they went to extremes then potentially mass redundancies in 2024 and replacement with a cheap tickets-only grade.
As soon as OBS are seen as not safety critical, it removes the leverage RMT have via strikes - so its obvious why RMT will fight every time it comes up..
 

td97

Established Member
Joined
26 Jul 2017
Messages
1,449
Do they (the RDG etc) need to be more explicit in terms of how DOO saves money? As guards or On Board staff are still needed ?
The delay minutes attributable to slow guard door opening (Northern 195/331 routes) must be tens of thousands per year. It's typical for 15-40 seconds to elapse between the train stopping and doors opening. With many stops booked for a 30s dwell...
 

fishwomp

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2020
Messages
895
Location
milton keynes
The delay minutes attributable to slow guard door opening (Northern 195/331 routes) must be tens of thousands per year. It's typical for 15-40 seconds to elapse between the train stopping and doors opening. With many stops booked for a 30s dwell...
Could not agree more about door opening and its cost..

- the 'door opening disputes' are way more nonsense than the DOO itself. I like having a second safety trained individual on board, but whether they open the door or not is not something I believe stands scrutiny. Not least because it's working fairly safely for Cross Country already..
- the current procedure of the guard getting out and checking the platform is there before opening everyone else's doors is costing time too - why enhance rail speed at such significant cost, when there's 10-15 seconds per stop to be had from the rules...
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
8,203
RMT have rejected the offer and requested an urgent meeting tomorrow to discuss further with RDG.
 

winks

Member
Joined
11 Jun 2009
Messages
599
As soon as OBS are seen as not safety critical, it removes the leverage RMT have via strikes - so its obvious why RMT will fight every time it comes up..
OBS staff earn same if not more than Guards so no savings re salary costs.
 

td97

Established Member
Joined
26 Jul 2017
Messages
1,449
Could not agree more about door opening and its cost..

the current procedure of the guard getting out and checking the platform is there before opening everyone else's doors is costing time too - why enhance rail speed at such significant cost, when there's 10-15 seconds per stop to be had from the rules...
The guard release procedure on routes with modern stock (and likely ASDO) is absolute nonsense. A move to driver release, guard close for these routes seems a reasonable compromise to get through both RMT & ASLEF in the present climate. TPE managed this a few years ago for their 802 routes.
 

KM1991

On Moderation
Joined
3 Sep 2013
Messages
216
Offer has already been rejected, and rightly so. Hopefully the meeting tomorrow will come with an offer that isn’t so patronising. Rip up a bunch of terms and conditions & only guarantee jobs for just over another year…no union in their right mind will put that to the membership. More complete nonsense from this government.
 

MrB

Member
Joined
3 Jan 2016
Messages
388
Location
London
4% when inflation is running at 14% honestly why do they even bother.
Tell me how many people in the private sector are getting pay rises in line with inflation. Not many! Most would be thankful to get 4%.
 

LoogaBarooga

Member
Joined
11 Jul 2019
Messages
252
Offer has already been rejected, and rightly so. Hopefully the meeting tomorrow will come with an offer that isn’t so patronising. Rip up a bunch of terms and conditions & only guarantee jobs for just over another year…no union in their right mind will put that to the membership. More complete nonsense from this government.
Not surprised. That was a horrendous offer.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
8,203
The guard release procedure on routes with modern stock (and likely ASDO) is absolute nonsense. A move to driver release, guard close for these routes seems a reasonable compromise to get through both RMT & ASLEF in the present climate. TPE managed this a few years ago for their 802 routes.
I generally favour driver door release, there's a middle man at EMR though - provided the guard has watched the train in through a droplight window they can release the doors immediately on stopping, which actually makes it faster than driver door release, given a driver is expected to focus on the stopping task and then switch focus to checking for door release.
 

RHolmes

Member
Joined
19 Jul 2019
Messages
641
The guard release procedure on routes with modern stock (and likely ASDO) is absolute nonsense. A move to driver release, guard close for these routes seems a reasonable compromise to get through both RMT & ASLEF in the present climate. TPE managed this a few years ago for their 802 routes.
ASDO is not a completely reliable method of opening the correct number of doors and carriages.

My TOC have been using C-ASDO retrofitted to units for around two years now and atleast once a week I have to resolve an ASDO issue, where the computer systems have failed to open the correct number of doors at usual platforms.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top