CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Bikeman78]

Does anybody know what the formation of Birmingham international to Aberystwyth and Pwhelli services will be (obviously they must split at Machynlleth so must either be 2+2,2+3 or 3+3.)

Only 21 two cars are having ERTMS fitted initially.

 

[craigybagel]

Only the two coach units have ETCS fitted so any train to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli will be four coaches dividing in to two separate two coach portions. I suppose there may be some two coach working too on the services that do not divide. Possibly some 6 coach workings could be used too on busy services. But none of the three coach units will be used on this line.

Only 21 two cars are having ERTMS fitted initially.

But this can be very easily rectified in future if needs be.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Does anybody know what the formation of Birmingham international to Aberystwyth and Pwhelli services will be (obviously they must split at Machynlleth so must either be 2+2,2+3 or 3+3.)

Only the two coach units have ETCS fitted so any train to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli will be four coaches dividing in to two separate two coach portions. I suppose there may be some two coach working too on the services that do not divide. Possibly some 6 coach workings could be used too on busy services. But none of the three coach units will be used on this line.

The Dec 2023 timetables that TfW were consulting on a little while ago show all trains on the Cambrian to be formed of two or four coaches. Six coaches between Shrewsbury and Birmingham only, and even then only twice a day each way. Between Shrewsbury and Machynlleth generally seems to alternate between two and four coaches, with some exceptions. In other words, little or no train lengthening on the Cambrian along with the introduction of unacceptably inferior rolling stock. On the plus side, the remaining gaps should be filled to get an hourly service.

 

[topydre]

The pattern on the proposed timetables is every 2 hours a 4-car train (2+2) between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury with Aberystwyth and Pwllheli portions splitting/joining at Machynlleth with the gaps filled by a 2-car train between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury. Portion working leaves/arrives Shrewsbury at approximately half past the odd hour, Aberystwyth only leaves/arrives Shrewsbury at approx half past the even hour. Exceptions as follows:
08:30 from Aberystwyth joins the 06:30 from Pwllheli at Machynlleth to form an extra through working from the coast.
19:30 ex-Shrewsbury is 4-car to Aberystwyth only (coast line train leaves 1 hour afterwards). Obviously, the 21:30 Aberystwyth - Machynlleth is thus 4-car also
The following train is 2-car to Aberystwyth and coast passengers have to change at Machynlleth for the last train along the coast line

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The Dec 2023 timetables that TfW were consulting on a little while ago show all trains on the Cambrian to be formed of two or four coaches. Six coaches between Shrewsbury and Birmingham only, and even then only twice a day each way. Between Shrewsbury and Machynlleth generally seems to alternate between two and four coaches, with some exceptions. In other words, little or no train lengthening on the Cambrian along with the introduction of unacceptably inferior rolling stock. On the plus side, the remaining gaps should be filled to get an hourly service.

Once again, I say to you, it’s only inferior in your personal opinion, and “unacceptably” is ridiculous hyperbole. There’s nothing wrong with the trains themselves, they just need to be running longer ones.

The pattern on the proposed timetables is every 2 hours a 4-car train (2+2) between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury with Aberystwyth and Pwllheli portions splitting/joining at Machynlleth with the gaps filled by a 2-car train between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury. Portion working leaves/arrives Shrewsbury at approximately half past the odd hour, Aberystwyth only leaves/arrives Shrewsbury at approx half past the even hour. Exceptions as follows:
08:30 from Aberystwyth joins the 06:30 from Pwllheli at Machynlleth to form an extra through working from the coast.
19:30 ex-Shrewsbury is 4-car to Aberystwyth only (coast line train leaves 1 hour afterwards). Obviously, the 21:30 Aberystwyth - Machynlleth is thus 4-car also
The following train is 2-car to Aberystwyth and coast passengers have to change at Machynlleth for the last train along the coast line

I’m more concerned about the downgrade of most ex Birmingham services from 4 coaches to 2 between Holyhead and Shrewsbury. Running 6 coaches to Shrewsbury and THEN dropping 2 to Aberysytwyth was what I had thought they would be doing, either that or running the extra Abers as a shuttle from Shrewsbury.

 

[berneyarms]

The Dec 2023 timetables that TfW were consulting on a little while ago show all trains on the Cambrian to be formed of two or four coaches. Six coaches between Shrewsbury and Birmingham only, and even then only twice a day each way. Between Shrewsbury and Machynlleth generally seems to alternate between two and four coaches, with some exceptions. In other words, little or no train lengthening on the Cambrian along with the introduction of unacceptably inferior rolling stock. On the plus side, the remaining gaps should be filled to get an hourly service.

I think that you missed the words “in my opinion” there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It'll be interesting to see if they stick to what is in the timetable. Sometimes services not shown as through are, and vice versa. It's like Mach is a law unto itself at times.

I think that you missed the words “in my opinion” there.

@Rhydgaled Have you tried it yet? I liked it more than I thought I would.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It'll be interesting to see if they stick to what is in the timetable. Sometimes services not shown as through are, and vice versa. It's like Mach is a law unto itself at times..

Absolutely. Wait at Barmouth or wherever and it’s pot luck whether or not the train terminates at or is swapped at Machynlleth.

@Rhydgaled Have you tried it yet? I liked it more than I thought I would.

I beg that you don’t trigger a baseless rant that we’ve heard a hundred times, especially outside of the Speculative Discussion.

 

[craigybagel]

I’m more concerned about the downgrade of most ex Birmingham services from 4 coaches to 2 between Holyhead and Shrewsbury. Running 6 coaches to Shrewsbury and THEN dropping 2 to Aberysytwyth was what I had thought they would be doing, either that or running the extra Abers as a shuttle from Shrewsbury.

To be fair, most of those services are 2 car already. And this is only the 2023 timetable - there may well be different formations in 2024. Also, by 2024 Chester - Shrewsbury should be half hourly which will help ease the load, combined with the extra North Wales services from 2023.

It'll be interesting to see if they stick to what is in the timetable. Sometimes services not shown as through are, and vice versa. It's like Mach is a law unto itself at times.

Unfortunately, when you have a very limited fleet that's also getting on a bit, last minute set swaps are unavoidable if units develop faults during the day. Hopefully for various reasons I've discussed above it should be better with the 197s.

 

[Neptune]

@Rhydgaled Have you tried it yet? I liked it more than I thought I would.

After all this time of endless repetitive subjective rants do you really think @Rhydgaled will be saying anything different even if they don’t really feel that way about them?

I honestly didn’t think I’d like 195’s/331’s when they were ordered but kept an open mind, stayed quiet about my thoughts and when I finally went on one whilst there are certain elements that I don’t like about them there are many more things that I like and I am more than happy to travel either long or short distances on them.

What I’m saying is that the trick is not to play your hand too early and spout about what you don’t like before they’re even in service because it might just come back to bite you on the bum when you do actually try them out. Apart from annoying all the people keeping open minds until you’ve actually tried one you may find you actually don’t mind them after all.

Your options then are either losing face and admitting you jumped the gun but at least then people know your genuine opinion of them. Alternatively if you don’t want to lose face you have to keep a false thought going for a long long time meaning nobody knows what you actually think from here on in because you shouted too loudly, too soon. The crux of that is though that if you genuinely don’t like them people might think you’re on the cover up because you actually do like them.

 

[craigybagel]

After all this time of endless repetitive subjective rants do you really think @Rhydgaled will be saying anything different even if they don’t really feel that way about them?

I honestly didn’t think I’d like 195’s/331’s when they were ordered but kept an open mind, stayed quiet about my thoughts and when I finally went on one whilst there are certain elements that I don’t like about them there are many more things that I like and I am more than happy to travel either long or short distances on them.

What I’m saying is that the trick is not to play your hand too early and spout about what you don’t like before they’re even in service because it might just come back to bite you on the bum when you do actually try them out. Apart from annoying all the people keeping open minds until you’ve actually tried one you may find you actually don’t mind them after all.

Your options then are either losing face and admitting you jumped the gun but at least then people know your genuine opinion of them. Alternatively if you don’t want to lose face you have to keep a false thought going for a long long time meaning nobody knows what you actually think from here on in because you shouted too loudly, too soon. The crux of that is though that if you genuinely don’t like them people might think you’re on the cover up because you actually do like them.

There's been a bit of that amongst drivers as well to be fair. A lot of people were pretty wary about the 197s before they came, but every driver I know who's done the course has come back pretty positive. They're not perfect, but they're a massive improvement over everything we have now.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

But none of the three coach units will be used on this line.

Unless they feel that the capacity is required and they can fit some of the standard only 3-cars with ETCS quickly if needed.

I have seen a few 3 car units running milage accumulation past the Crewe web cam. Sometimes in conjunction with other 3 or two car units.

Like I said, it's the last I heard. Will still be a while though as I believe they have to go through the higher mileage threshold as a new subclass.

 

[AlexNL]

Do TfW have the option to extend their 197s by adding coaches to them, should the need arise in the future?

 

[NewClee153]

After all this time of endless repetitive subjective rants do you really think @Rhydgaled will be saying anything different even if they don’t really feel that way about them?

I honestly didn’t think I’d like 195’s/331’s when they were ordered but kept an open mind, stayed quiet about my thoughts and when I finally went on one whilst there are certain elements that I don’t like about them there are many more things that I like and I am more than happy to travel either long or short distances on them.

What I’m saying is that the trick is not to play your hand too early and spout about what you don’t like before they’re even in service because it might just come back to bite you on the bum when you do actually try them out. Apart from annoying all the people keeping open minds until you’ve actually tried one you may find you actually don’t mind them after all.

Your options then are either losing face and admitting you jumped the gun but at least then people know your genuine opinion of them. Alternatively if you don’t want to lose face you have to keep a false thought going for a long long time meaning nobody knows what you actually think from here on in because you shouted too loudly, too soon. The crux of that is though that if you genuinely don’t like them people might think you’re on the cover up because you actually do like them.

I was expecting a lot more from them, that’s probably where I went wrong

I get the OP's perspective though, while the galley is a nice addition, the compromise on space is bigger than I imagined. Something that will be felt on busier services, and I could spend all day complaining about the ride quality

Despite that, I think they’re ok, and the 158s would’ve had to have been replaced anyway

 

[Bevan Price]

To me, the main problem with Class 197 (2 car) seems to be that they have about 20 fewer seats than Class 158, so overcrowding of busy services is likely to be much worse.

 

[berneyarms]

To me, the main problem with Class 197 (2 car) seems to be that they have about 20 fewer seats than Class 158, so overcrowding of busy services is likely to be much worse.

That'll depend on how they are deployed.
On the Cambrian mainline there will be additional trains, which will mean that the loadings will spread out more.

 

[anthony263]

Do TfW have the option to extend their 197s by adding coaches to them, should the need arise in the future?

I asked this question to tfw and they said they can order extra units or carriages if required in the future

 

[william.martin]

The pattern on the proposed timetables is every 2 hours a 4-car train (2+2) between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury with Aberystwyth and Pwllheli portions splitting/joining at Machynlleth with the gaps filled by a 2-car train between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury. Portion working leaves/arrives Shrewsbury at approximately half past the odd hour, Aberystwyth only leaves/arrives Shrewsbury at approx half past the even hour. Exceptions as follows:
08:30 from Aberystwyth joins the 06:30 from Pwllheli at Machynlleth to form an extra through working from the coast.
19:30 ex-Shrewsbury is 4-car to Aberystwyth only (coast line train leaves 1 hour afterwards). Obviously, the 21:30 Aberystwyth - Machynlleth is thus 4-car also
The following train is 2-car to Aberystwyth and coast passengers have to change at Machynlleth for the last train along the coast line

That makes sense now, my local lines's timetable has always confused me more than any others!
It's a bit of a funny line as sometimes it's full and sometimes it's empty E.G in ATW days I was on a service to Pwhelli (I was making the short journey from a seaside day in Barmouth back to Dyfryyn Ardudwy) and at Barmouth they were turning passengers down it was that packed...
The next day in the summer holidays (Saturday) I caught the same train and it was almost empty!
On that line I have seen it all from Hen parties to some very lost Americans trying to find the way to their caravan.
Strangely the once I was at the crossing at Dyfryyn Ardudwy station and I couldn't cross because there was a 4 car 158 sticking out the end of the platform.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I asked this question to tfw and they said they can order extra units or carriages if required in the future

Only if someone provides the money.
The design is at least up to date and with ETCS fitted will be a versatile unit.
Designs do obsolete though especially if standards change, or if nobody else buys a related design.
TfW might also want a bi-mode design next time.

 

[william.martin]

I was genuinely surprised when neither these or WMR's 196's were bi-mode when a good portion of there routes will be electrified in the coming 5-10 Years.

TfW might also want a bi-mode design next time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was genuinely surprised when neither these or WMR's 196's were bi-mode when a good portion of there routes will be electrified in the coming 5-10 Years.

Is New St-Shrewsbury high up the list for electrification? I'd have thought the Snow Hill Lines would be far higher up the list.

 

[craigybagel]

Only if someone provides the money.

That is always the issue. They're already stumping up enough for a massive expansion as it is.

TfW might also want a bi-mode design next time.

At least they'll have experience of such units at the Cardiff end of the franchise - but of course if you run Stadlers to the North you then lose the benefits of a large compatible fleet that the 197s bring. And they're not cheap.

CAF bi-modes would get around this, but it's not yet been proven that their design can be adapted for the British loading gauge
- especially given how big their fuel tanks would need to be given the very limited extent of electrified track TfW operate over, and how hilly it is.

Is New St-Shrewsbury high up the list for electrification? I'd have thought the Snow Hill Lines would be far higher up the list.

Members of this forum who work for NR have suggested that it's not especially high. I would expect electrifying Shrewsbury station to be problematic and expensive, which won't help the business case much.

Midlands Connect have produced some figures that suggest a miraculous transformation of the line with electrification and speed increases for some very low prices but it all sounds rather dubious.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

@Rhydgaled Have you tried it yet? I liked it more than I thought I would.

I'm in shock. Never thought I'd read those words coming from you

 

[L401CJF]

150213 covering the Liverpool circuit today.

 

[william.martin]

Is New St-Shrewsbury high up the list for electrification? I'd have thought the Snow Hill Lines would be far higher up the list.

I was thinking that they could put the panto down at Wolves while passengers board and when they run on the cross city lines when going to Hereford they could put the panto down wherever cables end down there.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I was thinking that they could put the panto down at Wolves while passengers board and when they run on the cross city lines when going to Hereford they could put the panto down wherever cables end down there.

TfW go Wolverhampton-Birmingham International under the wires, and don't use the cross-city line.
The complication there is that King's Norton-Longbridge is only wired on the slow (outer) lines, which wouldn't suit Worcester/Hereford services (or XC), which use the fast.

TfW also run Warrington-Manchester Airport, Crewe-Manchester Piccadilly, Runcorn-Liverpool Lime St and Newport-Cardiff under the wires.

 

[craigybagel]

TfW also run Warrington-Manchester Airport, Crewe-Manchester Piccadilly, Runcorn-Liverpool Lime St and Newport-Cardiff under the wires.

Which sounds like a lot but put all together still only makes up a small percentage of the TfW network....

 

[william.martin]

TfW go Wolverhampton-Birmingham International under the wires, and don't use the cross-city line.
The complication there is that King's Norton-Longbridge is only wired on the slow (outer) lines, which wouldn't suit Worcester/Hereford services (or XC), which use the fast.

TfW also run Warrington-Manchester Airport, Crewe-Manchester Piccadilly, Runcorn-Liverpool Lime St and Newport-Cardiff under the wires.

Sorry, was on about the 196's.

 

[childwallblues]

A Class 158 started out on the CHR-LIV service yesterday but was then swapped out for 197002.
Was this the first day in service for 197002?

 

[FrodshamJnct]

A Class 158 started out on the CHR-LIV service yesterday but was then swapped out for 197002.
Was this the first day in service for 197002?

It was also out on Saturday.