NSW Trains CAF Civity XPT replacement

[Greetlander]

The Explorer service to Canberra seems to fly along at a much better speed than the interstate XPTs manage. The other issue for these regional services is that they run intercity style in the cities (major stations only) but once out in the country they're basically a local train. Even given the long distances involved, the need to serve every community added to the shocking track standards, means any travel above 100kmh only happens in short bursts.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Explorer service to Canberra seems to fly along at a much better speed than the interstate XPTs manage. The other issue for these regional services is that they run intercity style in the cities (major stations only) but once out in the country they're basically a local train. Even given the long distances involved, the need to serve every community added to the shocking track standards, means any travel above 100kmh only happens in short bursts.

I think the Canberra run is limited to 120km/h (75mph) to the junction near Goulburn, and slower south of there on the branch.
In UK terms it's very similar to a long run in a 158 DMU, but with bigger seats, more space and some decent catering.
Some nice scenery through the Southern Highlands, and in the hills approaching Canberra.
They stop at Bowral, Don Bradman's home town - must stop off next time for the museum.
Then there's the field alongside the line near Canberra with at least 50 kangaroos having a team meeting*, which isn't a common sight in the UK.

*all gone on the return journey a couple of hours later...

 

[185]

A comment from one of the NSW staff last week. Many of them know very well the issues faced by their British colleagues with wobbly bangy new trains built by CAF, and the current XPT fleet may be living on a little bit longer - given their union has final say on whether or not CAFs contraptions will be safe to work on, especially given the state of the track in places.

 

[HamBuoy]

A comment from one of the NSW staff last week. Many of them know very well the issues faced by their British colleagues with wobbly bangy new trains built by CAF, and the current XPT fleet may be living on a little bit longer - given their union has final say on whether or not CAFs contraptions will be safe to work on, especially given the state of the track in places.

Meanwhile in Scotland the unions want rid of HSTs asap because of safety concerns

This is before we get to the elephant in the room. As things stand, ASLEF in Scotland have stated that they will instruct drivers not to drive these machines after the third anniversary of Carmont. It seems a bit of a surprise to learn that a contract is being put to tender of WSP given that they are unlikely to be in service for another autumn period. It sounds like there may be some brinkmanship at play here - ScotRail really need to look into another fleet if they don’t want to end up with an emergency timetable next year. Another considerable expense in an already incredibly expensive failure. Next time ScotRail talk about passenger numbers and subsidies when responding to demands they reintroduce services, remember the money thrown at this.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Meanwhile in Scotland the unions want rid of HSTs asap because of safety concerns

There's not much connection between the GB HSTs and the XPT - just some elements of the original power cars.

 

[43096]

There's not much connection between the GB HSTs and the XPT - just some elements of the original power cars.

Say what?

There's some in the photo two posts up from yours.

 

[Beebman]

I was briefly in Sydney a couple of weeks ago on my first-ever visit to Oz, I managed to get a photo of an XPT alongside an Xplorer at Central:

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Say what?
There's some in the photo two posts up from yours.

From the Wikipedia article:

New South Wales XPT - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The High Speed Train design was significantly modified, with the power cars being 50 cm (19.7 in) shorter, the Paxman Valenta engine downrated from 2,250 to 2,000 bhp (1,680 to 1,490 kW), gearing lowered for a top operating speed of 160 km/h (99 mph), suspension modified to operate on inferior track, and air filters and the cooling system modified to cater for hotter and dustier Australian conditions. However, the XPT is theoretically capable of reaching speeds of 200 km/h (120 mph).[9] A different light cluster was fitted along with three high-beam spotlights mounted to the roof. The passenger trailer cars were based on a Budd design, with the British Rail Mark 3 trailers considered unsuitable.

 

[43096]

From the Wikipedia article:

New South Wales XPT - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Obviously you didn’t look at the photo I referenced. There’s plenty of Mark 3 features internally: aircon grilles, lighting and panelling at the vehicle ends is all a straight lift from the Mark 3. Externally, the bogies on the first batch of trailers were variants of the BT10.

For the power cars, engines are the obvious similarity, both original and re-engined, but the electrical system is from Brush, including alternators and traction motors, the bogies are a modified version (for Australian conditions) of the HST power car bogie and cooler groups are an enlarged version (to suit the climate) of the Serck type used in 43153-198 as built.

I’d say your assertion that “there's not much connection between the GB HSTs and the XPT - just some elements of the original power cars” is fundamentally incorrect.

 

[AdamWW]

Obviously you didn’t look at the photo I referenced. There’s plenty of Mark 3 features internally: aircon grilles, lighting and panelling at the vehicle ends is all a straight lift from the Mark 3. Externally, the bogies on the first batch of trailers were variants of the BT10.

Yes - having read that the coaches were completely different to an HST, I was suprised when I travelled on an XPT to find that a lot of the interior looked rather familiar.

The sleeper coaches are really rather different though. I never thought I'd have a shower on an "HST".

 

[matt]

That was my thought when I travelled on one that the interiors definitely reminded me of a mark 3

 

[AdamWW]

That was my thought when I travelled on one that the interiors definitely reminded me of a mark 3

Indeed. But with more kangaroos outside.

 

[185]

Right down to the floor mat operated saloon doors

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

Obviously you didn’t look at the photo I referenced. There’s plenty of Mark 3 features internally: aircon grilles, lighting and panelling at the vehicle ends is all a straight lift from the Mark 3. Externally, the bogies on the first batch of trailers were variants of the BT10.

For the power cars, engines are the obvious similarity, both original and re-engined, but the electrical system is from Brush, including alternators and traction motors, the bogies are a modified version (for Australian conditions) of the HST power car bogie and cooler groups are an enlarged version (to suit the climate) of the Serck type used in 43153-198 as built.

I’d say your assertion that “there's not much connection between the GB HSTs and the XPT - just some elements of the original power cars” is fundamentally incorrect.

Would have a lot to do with Comeng licensing the drawing off off the BR. Then Comeng designed the XPT off it. Some of the visual apperance of a Mk3 was kept but the rest of it was Comeng. The construction was much more simpler than the Mk3.
Comeng did a lot of research and ground work into the design to make it work in Australia. Comeng stood by thier products.
They were an ideas company as aswell. They even proposed an electric version of the XPT.

The story of the XPT is covered in John Dunn's excellent book series. A History of Commonwealth Engineering. The XPT is covered in Volume 4.

 

[AdamWW]

Would have a lot to do with Comeng licensing the drawing off off the BR. Then Comeng designed the XPT off it. Some of the visual apperance of a Mk3 was kept but the rest of it was Comeng. The construction was much more simpler than the Mk3.
Comeng did a lot of research and ground work into the design to make it work in Australia. Comeng stood by thier products.

The fact that they are still in service suggests that they didn't do too badly.

 

[Speed43125]

The fact that they are still in service suggests that they didn't do too badly.

Well in fairness the corrosion from the likes of Dawlish probably haven't affected them as much as the ex (G)WR HST trailers here!

 

[43096]

Would have a lot to do with Comeng licensing the drawing off off the BR. Then Comeng designed the XPT off it. Some of the visual apperance of a Mk3 was kept but the rest of it was Comeng. The construction was much more simpler than the Mk3.
Comeng did a lot of research and ground work into the design to make it work in Australia. Comeng stood by thier products.
They were an ideas company as aswell. They even proposed an electric version of the XPT.

The story of the XPT is covered in John Dunn's excellent book series. A History of Commonwealth Engineering. The XPT is covered in Volume 4.

Thanks for that. The electric version is an interesting what-if, as BR proposed the same with their HST design (as 125 Group members will know).

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

There was also a planned metre gauge version for Thailand.

In 1986, agreement was reached to build a fleet of XPTs for the State Railway of Thailand. To allow it to be built to the narrower 1,000 mm (3 ft 3+3⁄8 in) metre gauge and retain the same fuel capacity, it was proposed to extend the power cars by 2.7 to 20 metres (8 ft 10 in to 65 ft 7 in) and mount them on Bo′Bo′Bo′ bogies. The negotiations were sufficiently advanced for the Prime Minister of Thailand to announce it on television, however the Australian Department of Trade withdrew its support at the last moment and the deal fell through.

New South Wales XPT - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[gordonthemoron]

Latest estimate for introducing the XPT replacement trains, from Sydney Morning Herald

The Spanish manufacturer’s forecast date for delivering the first train is May 2025, which is 35 months late. In August, CAF, which built trams for Sydney’s inner west line, gave the agency a revised schedule that reduced the delay to about 27 months, but that was subject to reaching a commercial settlement.

 

[railfan99]

Latest estimate for introducing the XPT replacement trains, from Sydney Morning Herald

Plus A$1 billion cost blowout (up from A$827m as previous estimate).

The Explorer service to Canberra seems to fly along at a much better speed than the interstate XPTs manage. The other issue for these regional services is that they run intercity style in the cities (major stations only) but once out in the country they're basically a local train. Even given the long distances involved, the need to serve every community added to the shocking track standards, means any travel above 100kmh only happens in short bursts.

The 'track standards' are not disastrous.

I suspect you are thinking of numerous curves on lines like Maitland to Brisbane, and much of the Sydney-Melbourne line, especially between Goulburn and Cootamundra. The XPT can be driven hard through these.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I took the XPT last night for an hour’s ride - here it is alongside a classmate at Sydney under the sunset - and was very impressed by the comfort of the seats, far more comfortable than they look.

Are there any design drawings/impressions of the CAF replacements that someone might kindly share please?

Edit: Seen one here:

New South Wales R set - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Image description: Two XPT power cars are lined up at the buffers at Sydney Central. The sky overhead is a gradient of blue and purple. The power cars are rather dirty and both have their tail lights on.

 

[railfan99]

I took the XPT last night for an hour’s ride - here it is alongside a classmate at Sydney under the sunset - and was very impressed by the comfort of the seats, far more comfortable than they look.

Are there any design drawings/impressions of the CAF replacements that someone might kindly share please?

I understand the seats in the CAF railcars are unsuitable for long distance travel: they are suitable for European trips of say two hours. Allegedly poorly padded, but then numerous airlines with horrible 'slimline seats' in economy class get away with these for up to 17 hours journeys, so 'if you can't beat 'em....'

Yes,. the XPT seats are excellent.

On day trips, you can book via the call centre in car A if travelling in first class: this puts you in the sleeper where it's three to a compartment, and every second one faces backwards. You can't recline those seats.

Don't forget about the excellent value NSW TrainLink Discovery Pass!

 

[gordonthemoron]

I understand the seats in the CAF railcars are unsuitable for long distance travel: they are suitable for European trips of say two hours. Allegedly poorly padded, but then numerous airlines with horrible 'slimline seats' in economy class get away with these for up to 17 hours journeys, so 'if you can't beat 'em....'

Yes,. the XPT seats are excellent.

On day trips, you can book via the call centre in car A if travelling in first class: this puts you in the sleeper where it's three to a compartment, and every second one faces backwards. You can't recline those seats.

Don't forget about the excellent value NSW TrainLink Discovery Pass!

I’m intending doing Melbourne to Sydney overnight first class seats in December, saves the bus to Melbourne airport, a major airport with no railway station ‍♀️

 

[ge-gn]

Having done the seats from Sydney to Melbourne twice overnight, I can say that while they are indeed comfortable, it is a long, long journey and they don’t recline. Get booked early for a sleeper berth (I didn’t…).

 

[gordonthemoron]

Having done the seats from Sydney to Melbourne twice overnight, I can say that while they are indeed comfortable, it is a long, long journey and they don’t recline. Get booked early for a sleeper berth (I didn’t…).

I thought 1st class reclined 40 degrees, and 2nd class 28 degrees? I could get the stepdaughter to book the sleeper, but the missus says it’s too expensive

 

[matt]

Seems a lot just to avoid the bus to Melbourne Airpot.

 

[ge-gn]

I thought 1st class reclined 40 degrees, and 2nd class 28 degrees? I could get the stepdaughter to book the sleeper, but the missus says it’s too expensive

Maybe I’ve been unlucky, or possibly my memory is failing me! But I can say both journeys were the longest 12 hours of my iife!

If you’ve ever travelled in Coach overnight on Amtrak, by comparison XPT seats are not as comfortable (in my opinion).

 

[LesS]

It is recommended that overnight XPT journeys be in a sleeper; otherwise do not go.

The cost of the Skybus from Melbourne airport is expensive. there is a regular bus service available. Route901 with normal fares. Take this to Broadmeadows suburban station and change to the suburban train. It will save a lot of money.

Political ideology saw the CAF purchase as being an "off the shelf" cheap deal. Modifications were requested which became expensive if they were even at all possible. It has been a political and financial disaster for the residents of NSW. Do not expect to see anything operating for several more years.

The XPT cars are in excellent condition, no rust or corrosion. The interiors have been well maintained. They are suitable for several more decades of service with the interiors given an upgrade. The real need is for new power units, pretty much new everything. They have been overused. A carset will leave the depot at 2.00pm each day for a return trip to Brisbane. It will return to the depot around 10.00pm the next evening. Everything has been kept running continuously over this period. Following servicing the set will be reissued next morning for a return trip to Melbourne, another 24 hours with everything kept running.

 

[railfan99]

It is recommended that overnight XPT journeys be in a sleeper; otherwise do not go.

The cost of the Skybus from Melbourne airport is expensive. there is a regular bus service available. Route 701 with normal fares. Take this to Broadmeadows suburban station and change to the suburban train. It will save a lot of money.

It isn't route 701, but 901. myki can be used for both this SmartBus and Metro train: $4.60 for an adult two-hour (based on touch-on times) ticket.

 

[the sniper]

Sounds like you could have just done with scaled down Siemens Chargers, with a version of Viaggio/Venture carriages if they wished to push the boat out. I dread to think what a CAF unit will be like with your legendarily rough PWay!