Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[computerSaysNo]

The 14 isn't really that bad, the worst route by far for anti-social behaviour at the moment is the 29 (and 48) between Eskbank/Dalkeith and Birkenside. Quite a few evenings recently buses have been pulled out from Gore Avenue and Birkenside.

I wonder if people who can afford to use the train are using it between those destinations, so you're left with a higher proportion of young and poor people on the bus. Bit concerning though, what are you meant to do about it? I'm never really around there, other than passing through on the train, so I had no idea.

There’s only a higher proportion of young people on the bus on those sections simply because they travel for free and have nothing better to do. In most cases it doesn’t matter how busy a bus is either; they simply have no respect or care for anyone but themselves. It’s just general anti-social behaviour.

Right on cue, services 29 and 48 were withdrawn from Gorebridge Station and Birkenside areas again about an hour ago. I believe they risked running until about 6pm last night.

I've tried looking around the internet for an answer to my question but I can't find one. What are drivers allowed to do, both by company policy and legally, about people acting in an anti-social manner? I would expect that legally if a (legal adult) was acting like that you could kick them off the bus. I can't seem to find a straight answer as to whether you're allowed to do that if the person is under 18 though? And how severe does the behaviour need to be before you can consider taking any action at all - is someone smoking on the bus bad enough? Or do they have to be threatening violence?
If this would be better in a thread of its own then let me know and I'll start one.

 

[eh1]

I've tried looking around the internet for an answer to my question but I can't find one. What are drivers allowed to do, both by company policy and legally, about people acting in an anti-social manner? I would expect that legally if a (legal adult) was acting like that you could kick them off the bus. I can't seem to find a straight answer as to whether you're allowed to do that if the person is under 18 though? And how severe does the behaviour need to be before you can consider taking any action at all - is someone smoking on the bus bad enough? Or do they have to be threatening violence?
If this would be better in a thread of its own then let me know and I'll start one.

Shouldn't be getting out the cab, if in doubt most will radio control who are brilliant at helping us out. Some drivers will get out and kick people off, however it depends if you're putting yourself in a position of danger.

 

[Bus9120UK]

I’m assuming that buses will automatically revert to going down Leith Walk again since it reopens fully tomorrow?

This is correct and has been the plan since November.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Hi all, is there a site/document somewhere that lists the PVR for Lothian bus routes, similar to this website https://londonbuses.co.uk/menus/rl001-100.html ? If not, are there any tricks for calculating those numbers myself?

The only one I personally know of is this: Lothian Group Fleetlist, if you go to pages 9 and 10 there is the PVR of each route, but it is obviously out of date (as it lists the 300 but not the 400, amongst other inaccuracies). I don't know of a more up to date one, sorry.

 

[A330Alex]

I’m assuming that buses will automatically revert to going down Leith Walk again since it reopens fully tomorrow?

I think the date given was “Week commencing” so could be a few days still, although it seemed pretty much ready today. I suspect Lothian might give a few days notice along with graphics before the full switch over though.

 

[Graeme Duncan]

I reside in Morningside and the routes 11 and 16 are predominantly XLBs with the occasional 1 or 2 random deckers.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Just spotted 1004 returning from paint following repair. It's in madder and white.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

This almost guarantees that 1003 and 1013 will indeed be painted into Madder & White.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

This almost guarantees that 1003 and 1013 will indeed be painted into Madder & White.

1028 when it’s needed too will probably switch across to Lothian. 1004 as I suggested previously may well have only received this now as it had been away for repair, otherwise it would’ve likely gone into reserve still with its green and cream.

1030-1032 remain at Seafield and as yet haven’t moved. All three look like they will probably remain at Lothian Country.

 

[stevenedin]

1028 when it’s needed too will probably switch across to Lothian. 1004 as I suggested previously may well have only received this now as it had been away for repair, otherwise it would’ve likely gone into reserve still with its green and cream.

1030-1032 remain at Seafield and as yet haven’t moved. All three look like they will probably remain at Lothian Country.

It would be nice for East Coast buses to get some of these. They are nice buses on fast roads but I do notice that the Lothian country batch don’t sound too health recently. I think that they are starting to become worn out.

 

[elmogrouchland]

And how severe does the behaviour need to be before you can consider taking any action at all - is someone smoking on the bus bad enough?

Strictly speaking failure to comply with any of the Conditions of Carriage is enough for someone to be denied travel or asked to leave the bus IMHO. Actually achieving that and living to tell the tale is another matter.

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On another contentious note it is about time for pay negotiations to start. With all the strikes in other industries lately I wonder if Lothian is ready to offer a rise that will see off any dissent before it starts. There is also the issue of different rates of pay and terms and conditions across different branches of the 'Lothian Family'! What do the bus enthusiasts of this forum think? Should Lothian City, East Coast and Lothian Country drivers all be on the same rate of pay? If not, why not?

 

[computerSaysNo]

They are nice buses on fast roads but I do notice that the Lothian country batch don’t sound too health recently. I think that they are starting to become worn out.

Do they sound any worse than the 2010 B9s at East Coast?

Strictly speaking failure to comply with any of the Conditions of Carriage is enough for someone to be denied travel or asked to leave the bus IMHO. Actually achieving that and living to tell the tale is another matter.

Aren't there safeguarding issues with asking under-18s to leave the bus though?

Should Lothian City, East Coast and Lothian Country drivers all be on the same rate of pay? If not, why not?

On the face of it I would say no, as the City drivers look like they have more difficult driving conditions in terms of narrow roads etc. That said I don't know if there are other non pay factors which make up for that.

 

[Scotrail88]

What’s the changes next month?

It's strange that McGills are changing on the same date.

 

[Bus9120UK]

What’s the your changes next month?

Strange that McGills changing on same date

Are you able to provide further context? There's no changes next month from my understanding.

 

[alexf380]

On the face of it I would say no, as the City drivers look like they have more difficult driving conditions in terms of narrow roads etc. That said I don't know if there are other non pay factors which make up for that

Go on, I'll bite...
Pay and conditions is a very emotive subject at our garage.
You could argue the city drivers should be on less as they're not going anywhere sitting in traffic all day. Obviously that's a completely ridiculous suggestion and a bus driver should be paid the same whether the bus is red or green, considering we're all supposed to be part of the "Lothian family."

 

[GordonT]

Hi all, is there a site/document somewhere that lists the PVR for Lothian bus routes, similar to this website https://londonbuses.co.uk/menus/rl001-100.html ? If not, are there any tricks for calculating those numbers myself?

If I wanted this information I would simply lodge a Freedom of Information (FOI) Request as they are a public company rather than being privately owned. The following link is a good starting point. https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/lothian_buses

 

[computerSaysNo]

Go on, I'll bite...
Pay and conditions is a very emotive subject at our garage.
You could argue the city drivers should be on less as they're not going anywhere sitting in traffic all day. Obviously that's a completely ridiculous suggestion and a bus driver should be paid the same whether the bus is red or green, considering we're all supposed to be part of the "Lothian family."

I think it also comes down to where they need the drivers I think. If the City is a less attractive environment to work in then they'll need to do something to attract people to it otherwise everyone will leave to try and work at Country or East Coast.

 

[ScotRail158725]

It would be nice for East Coast buses to get some of these. They are nice buses on fast roads but I do notice that the Lothian country batch don’t sound too health recently. I think that they are starting to become worn out.

1013 and 1040 are the only ones that sound “off” in recent experience; the rest all sound in working order.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Feb 2023 ==

On the face of it I would say no, as the City drivers look like they have more difficult driving conditions in terms of narrow roads etc. That said I don't know if there are other non pay factors which make up for that.

What about the narrow country roads such as on the 113 beyond Tranent, the 124 beyond Longniddry, Kirknewton etc.?

 

[Scotrail88]

Are you able to provide further context? There's no changes next month from my understanding.

The tours have variations appearing today of VOSA

Just seemed like a coordinated change.

Didn’t know if moves afoot at St Andrews Sq

 

[Bus9120UK]

The tours have variations appearing today of VOSA

Just seemed like a coordinated change.

Didn’t know if moves afoot at St Andrews Sq

You're right - looks like the tours are moving to Waterloo Place?

 

[CN04NRJ]

You could argue the city drivers should be on less

I'll admit that made me giggle! I've got nothing I want to add to that discussion though

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Feb 2023 ==

You're right - looks like the tours are moving to Waterloo Place?

Yes. Should be more "fun" than St Andrew Square.

 

[stevenedin]

I'll admit that made me giggle! I've got nothing I want to add to that discussion though

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Feb 2023 ==



Yes. Should be more "fun" than St Andrew Square.

It is a bit out of the way for people to join the tour buses. Is Waverley Bridge permanently closed now?

 

[computerSaysNo]

What about the narrow country roads such as on the 113 beyond Tranent, the 124 beyond Longniddry, Kirknewton etc.?

Yes I recognize those as being comparable to City conditions, but what about the long stretches on the A1 at East Coast?
... Admittedly I can't really think of many more places with "easy" driving. Maybe the pay gap should just be less than what it is currently? Although I haven't looked at what it is recently.

 

[buslad1988]

Yes I recognize those as being comparable to City conditions, but what about the long stretches on the A1 at East Coast?
... Admittedly I can't really think of many more places with "easy" driving. Maybe the pay gap should just be less than what it is currently? Although I haven't looked at what it is recently.

Definitely a sore issue! It’s a difficult one with compelling arguments on both sides. Historically “town” and “country” operators were usually seperate competitors so pay discrepancies were just a part of that. With Lothian taking on East Coast/Country it’s brought the issue to the forefront. Yes all drivers are part of one “family” and effectively do the same job however there are differences in terms of intensity of the types of work etc. and aren’t the same in many ways. Tours for example is an obvious one and they do have alternative hourly rates for those drivers. Everyone wants to be paid more but as stated who’d want to stay driving busy city routes when you could move to ECB and get the same pay for what’s perceived as a relatively easier job.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Yes I recognize those as being comparable to City conditions, but what about the long stretches on the A1 at East Coast?
... Admittedly I can't really think of many more places with "easy" driving. Maybe the pay gap should just be less than what it is currently? Although I haven't looked at what it is recently.

£15.78 basic after 3 years at Lothian, around £18 for weekday overtime and £25.22 for weekend overtime.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

What’s the changes next month?

It's strange that McGills are changing on the same date.

Nothing has been confirmed yet, but the last proper service changed was back in September? (November for LCB) so it’s been enough time to justify a service change for the Lothian Network!

Have McGills posted a service change list?

 

[Bus9120UK]

Nothing has been confirmed yet, but the last proper service changed was back in September? (November for LCB) so it’s been enough time to justify a service change for the Lothian Network!

Have McGills posted a service change list?

It's the tours moving to Waterloo Place, as mentioned above.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

It's the tours moving to Waterloo Place, as mentioned above.

That’s disappointing, was hoping we’d get a proper network review! especially with the tram project moving ahead!

 

[elmogrouchland]

You could argue the city drivers should be on less as they're not going anywhere sitting in traffic all day.

Not to mention a far simpler ticketing system for City drivers.

I'll admit that made me giggle! I've got nothing I want to add to that discussion though

I assume you are a Lothian City driver. Why would you not want to add your thoughts to the discussion? We're all friends here!

Yes I recognize those as being comparable to City conditions, but what about the long stretches on the A1 at East Coast?
... Admittedly I can't really think of many more places with "easy" driving.

I'd have thought barrelling down the A1 at 60mph with a standing load is far from "easy" given the risks involved. In fact, it's probably the riskiest driving any driver in the 'Lothian Family' has to do (there may be equivalents for Lothian Country. I don't know the routes well enough to comment.). All done with nae seatbelt either, so it's not just the punters that suffer if it goes wrong!

 

[duncanp]

That’s disappointing, was hoping we’d get a proper network review! especially with the tram project moving ahead!

I would imagine that Lothian Buses are currently working on a review of the network, to be implemented when the tram extension opens.

Since they don't know the date for the opening yet, they can't announce any details.