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The Death Penalty

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ainsworth74

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However, the vast majority of cases where people are convicted of murders that they didn't commit are due to procedural errors on the part of investigators and prosecutors.
Plus police and CPS are suffering massive budget cuts and we're also making it harder and harder to access Legal Aid to ensure that people get an effective defence. These are not the conditions that encourage great faith that the right decision will always be reached and miscarriages of justice avoided.

I suppose one mitigation might be for the Legal Aid rules to be altered so that in capital cases the test for who qualifies for Legal Aid could be removed or at least the bar set considerably higher but that doesn't magically fix the CPS and police issues. For instance there is a backlog of 25,000 devices waiting processing for digital forensics:

Police are overwhelmed and ineffective when it comes to digital forensics - with a backlog of more than 25,000 devices waiting to be examined, inspectors have found.

A report, by His Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services (HMICFRS), looked at how effective the police are at capturing evidence from digital devices, including smartphones and computers.

It concluded that some forces are overwhelmed and do not have a clear understanding of what digital forensics are.

Inspectors found that it had led to huge delays in examining electronic devices, with knock-on effects on the prosecutions of offenders and the well-being of victims.

Are confident that those 25,000 devices will actually be properly processed and the evidence correctly linked and contextualised?

And is DNA really all that? Juries might like it but it's not without it's problems:
For David Butler, it began with a knock on the door early one November morning, seven years ago. When he opened it, officers from the Merseyside police were standing on his doorstep. The retired taxi driver was being arrested for murder.

The police said they had evidence connecting Butler to the death of Anne Marie Foy, a 46-year-old sex worker who had been battered and strangled in Liverpool in 2005.

Butler’s DNA, it turned out, had been logged into the UK national database after a 1998 investigation into a break-in at the home he shared with his mother. A partial match had been made to DNA found on Foy’s fingernail clippings and cardigan buttons. This, combined with CCTV evidence of a distinctive taxi seen near the scene, led the prosecutor to tell the jury in Butler’s trial that the DNA information “provides compelling evidence that the defendant was in contact with Anne Marie Foy at the time immediately before she died”.

The case seemed conclusive. Yet Butler was adamant: he had not met Foy.

“You do see an assumption being made that a DNA profile is evidence of contact – case closed – whereas it is actually a lot more complicated than that,” says Ruth Morgan, the director of the Centre for the Forensic Sciences at University College London. “We are only beginning to realise quite how complex it is.”

Since DNA was first used in a police investigation 31 years ago, to solve the murder of Dawn Ashworth, a 15-year-old schoolgirl who was raped and strangled in Leicestershire, the technique has attained an aura of being bulletproof. Certainly, in some cases, evidence of a DNA match to a suspect can be powerful. “There will be times when you get a really clear [DNA] profile, and it is very clear how that material got to the crime scene. And it is [also] very clear that it was during the course of an illegal activity,” says Morgan. “The classic [example] would be semen on the clothing of someone who is underage.”

But Butler’s case is just one of many that highlight growing questions in the world of forensic science: what exactly are fingermarks, DNA or gunshot residue actually evidence of – particularly now that even tiny traces can be detected?

It’s a riddle whose answer may have profound consequences. According to research published by Morgan and her colleagues, rulings for 218 successful appeal cases in England and Wales between 2010 and 2016 argued that DNA evidence had been misleading, with the main issues being its relevance, validity or usefulness in proving an important point in a trial.

It is not the first time forensic science has come under scrutiny. In 2015, the FBI and co-authors released a report that put the final nail in the coffin of hair analysis, while the matching of fingermarks (found at crime scenes) and fingerprints (taken from suspects) has also been in the spotlight.

In a seminal paper from 2005, the neuroscientist Itiel Dror and colleagues revealed that, in the case of ambiguous marks, those examining the evidence could be swayed in their conclusions by the context of a case, with a match more likely to be made when the crime had been depicted as harrowing.

After initial resistance, the impact of such work has been dramatic. “Fingermarks are now presented in court in a completely different way – it is really, really rare that you get someone saying unequivocally: ‘This is an identification,’” says Morgan.

But with technology now allowing the recovery of minute traces of DNA, new challenges have arisen. Not only is it often unclear whether trace DNA is from skin cells, saliva or some other body fluid, but such DNA samples often contain material from multiple individuals, which is difficult to tease apart.

What’s more, working out when the DNA was deposited, and for how long it might have been present, is an enormous problem. “If you get a mixed profile on an item of clothing, is the major profile the last person who wore it, or is it somebody who regularly wore it?” Morgan asks.

And it gets more complicated. “In different scenarios, some people leave DNA and some people don’t,” she says. Indeed, studies from several groups have looked at a number of factors affecting how much DNA is left behind, which can be influenced by such things as how long it was since somebody washed their hands and which hand a person touched an object with. And some people simply shed more. “We’ve had some experiments where the person whose DNA we were looking for left either a partial profile or not really a viable profile – but there was other DNA [from a person] who we were able to identify as a close partner who hadn’t touched the item; they hadn’t been in the lab.”

To Butler, such issues proved pivotal. The DNA samples from Foy’s nails were a complex mixture of profiles and only a partial match was found with Butler’s DNA. Further analysis of the initial examination notes also revealed that Foy had been wearing glittery nail varnish. “That is going to retain more DNA for a longer time because there is more opportunity; more things for it to stick to,” says Sue Pope, a DNA expert who worked on the case, and is now co-director of Principal Forensic Services Ltd.

And there was another significant factor: Butler had a condition which led to him having flaky skin. “He was depositing a lot more cells that you might expect from a single touch,” says Pope. The findings, argued the defence, meant that Butler’s DNA could have found its way on to Foy’s hands and hence her clothing by entirely innocent means – for example by Foy handling coins that had previously been touched by Butler. After eight months on remand, Butler was acquitted.

The case exemplifies the puzzles Morgan and her colleagues are hoping to tackle by means of a host of experiments, from looking at how DNA can be transferred between individuals to how long particles such as quartz grains can cling to footwear – an important consideration given that the shape and texture of such grains can be linked to specific environments. “One poor student had to wear the same pair of shoes most days for four months,” says Morgan.

The results were intriguing. The outsides of the shoes showed a rise in particular types of quartz grain as the student visited each of five known locations, with the quantity of each type dropping off over time. At the end of the study, grains from just two locations were found on each shoe.

But there was a surprise. “Inside [the shoe] we had every single location,” said Morgan. That, counterintuitively, means the inside of a pair of shoes could offer up more clues than the outside when it comes to tracing a suspect’s movements.

Meanwhile, research by the team carried out after the Rotherham abuse scandal not only revealed that DNA from semen could be found on clothes laundered several months after the fluid was deposited, but also threw up another result. “We found the ‘suspect’s’ DNA on other items that had never had any of that bodily fluid on them, indicating you are getting transfer in a washing machine,” says Morgan.

The question of how and when DNA can be transferred, and its implications for the justice system, was thrown into sharp relief by the murder of Meredith Kercher in November 2007. Among the evidence was the fact that DNA from Raffaele Sollecito – the boyfriend of Kercher’s flatmate, Amanda Knox – was found on the clasp of Kercher’s bra.

While it was argued that the DNA cropped up as a result of contamination, Morgan points out that when people are under the same roof there are multiple opportunities for transfer, from handling each other’s laundry to touching the same objects. Yet just how much DNA is transferred, and in what circumstances, remains unknown.

The upshot is that, although the technology is more powerful than ever, the presence of trace DNA is far from a magic bullet. Indeed, the 2015 annual report from the UK government’s chief scientific adviser into forensic science warned that for many substances now detectable at trace levels “our ability to analyse may outstrip our ability to interpret”.

But funding, says Morgan, is largely directed towards inventing new gadgets and miniaturising existing technology, adding that UCL has had to turn to crowdfunding to raise money for a centre dedicated to the interpretation of forensic evidence.

Georgina Meakin, an expert in DNA analysis, also based at UCL, says that public understanding is another thing lagging behind advances in technology. One potential area of confusion is just what DNA analysis involves. Rather than sequencing the whole genome, only certain areas of the DNA are examined. Since 2014, in England, it has generally been at 16 sites, plus an additional marker that indicates whether the sample is from a man or woman. “These [sites] consist of repeating sequences of DNA, and we are interested in the number of repeats that are present; it is the number of those repeats that can differ between individuals,” says Meakin.

But, she stresses, trace DNA is often far from conclusive, with analysts often having to turn to statisticians to unpick mixed profiles. It’s a situation that some have sought to commercialise, among them Cybergenetics – the company behind an algorithm-based technology known as TrueAllele which claims to be able to untangle mixed profiles and “produce accurate results on previously unsolvable DNA evidence”.

It has been used in hundreds of cases in the US. But there is a hitch: experts have argued that neither they, nor the defendants, have been allowed access to the system’s source code – meaning, among other things, that it is difficult to know what assumptions are built into the technology. “There is a lot of concern,” says Morgan. “People aren’t happy that it is essentially a black box.”

But the company puts the case that both defence and prosecution are welcome to test the software on their own data, adding that the maths behind the system has been disclosed.

Nonetheless, Pope argues that independent validation of software for DNA analysis is crucial. “A courtroom setting is not the best place for looking at really detailed questions about how statistics have been done.” And, even if the technology is accepted as being reliable, questions remain. It “tells you something about the potential source of the DNA, but nothing at all about the activity involved in the DNA coming to be where it was found”, she says.

That became apparent in the case of the Massereene barracks murders – the shooting of two British soldiers in Antrim, Northern Ireland, in March 2009. Among the evidence were findings from TrueAllele, which included a match between mixed-profile DNA taken from a mobile phone found in the partly burnt-out getaway car and one of the suspects, Brian Shivers. As Mark Perlin, founder of TrueAllele, testified, the DNA on the phone was six billion times more likely to be that of Shivers than it being a coincidence.


Together with other DNA evidence, the finding proved pivotal in the outcome of the trial. Shivers was found guilty and sentenced to at least 25 years in jail, with his poor health making it likely he would die in prison.

Yet in 2013, there was a retrial. The reasoning hung not on the evidence, but on its interpretation. Shivers’ DNA, the judge concluded, might have turned up on the phone and on other evidence from an innocent touch, or even a handshake.

“Have the prosecution eliminated other possibilities than the guilt of the accused? Am I satisfied beyond reasonable doubt of the guilt of the accused?” he asked.

The answer was clear. No. Shivers was acquitted.


That was from 2017 looking at cases from years prior. Things have gotten worse since with ever more overworked police, overworked CPS, overworked forensics teams...
 
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najaB

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Or to push your question back to you, who determines the right of Ukrainian soldiers to kill Russian soldiers? I rather suspect that you wouldn't doubt that Ukrainian soldiers have that moral right given the current situation in Ukraine.
That's an easy one - putting on the uniform of the nation represents a commitment to kill or be killed in the effort to fulfil orders given by their senior officers.

It's the primary difference between soldiers and civilians.
 

Sorcerer

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Likewise, if someone kidnapped and locked up a family member of yours and in return you kidnapped them and locked them up for some years, you would certainly not be let off the hook for doing so. Yet funnily enough, we don't have any objection to the state doing that... it's called prison!
The thing, someone who usually goes to prison is there for the safety of society if they are found guilty of a crime, not for some ransoms or for the giggles. But anyone who is wrongly convicted can receive some form of compensation for wrongful imprisonment. You can't do that with someone whose dead.
Realistically, you need a way to punish people/deter crime/remove hardened criminals from society/etc. and the only way to achieve that is to allow the state (after following due process) to take actions that you would never allow an individual person to do. That's a perfectly accepted part of our society. In that regard, prison is no different from the death penalty, if we had it. It does not therefore make logical sense to oppose the death penalty on the basis that you (rightly) don't allow individual people to kill other people - by that logic, you would have no criminal justice system at all!
Prison is different from the death penalty though for reasons stated above. Also not everyone supports the current prison system and believes justice should be rehabilitation than retribution-based.
I'd argue that what gives the state that moral right in some circumstances is pragmatism: The recognition that we don't live in a perfect World: Rather, we have to do the best we can in a real World that contains some very bad individuals who would commit heinous crimes if we don't stop them, and that stopping them sometimes requires us to take actions that we'd normally prefer not to take - in order to prevent greater wrongs from being done.
Not living in a perfect world is good reason to not have a death penalty because people make mistakes, as will the justice system, and that's fine if you're willing to accept some people will be wrongfully executed. Personally, I am not, and pragmatically speaking, the death penalty does not deter crime, therefore there is no pragmatic argument in favour of it.
Or to push your question back to you, who determines the right of Ukrainian soldiers to kill Russian soldiers? I rather suspect that you don't doubt that Ukrainian soldiers have that moral right.
There is a fine line that has been crossed between executing someone who has already been contained and is no longer a threat to society and fighting off an invading force in a kill-or-be-killed situation.
 

ainsworth74

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In that regard, prison is no different from the death penalty, if we had it.
Once you're dead you're dead. If you're still in prison you can be released and the State can attempt to make ammends for it's failure. That's quite a fundamental difference.
 

the sniper

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The "squeamishness" is twofold. Firstly is the irrevocable nature of the punishment, second is the question of if it actually is anything other than institutionalised revenge - how does imposition of a death sentence represent more of a punishment than a whole life tariff?

There are some that argue a whole life tariff is more of a punishment than the death penalty... For me it's more of a matter of, why do we spend millions of pounds maintaining the existence of someone in jail for the rest of their life, who's existence only made the world worse in the first place. I don't think we owe the most evil anything beyond a fair trial. That cell might be better used by someone else, who still has something to offer society back.

'We' have killed more innocent/better people in war with little thought than worthless oxygen wasters we maintain in prison, who've had a great deal of thought. Many good people have died as a result of the health care system's failures, in places due to a lack of resources. The State's resources are not infinite and I'm not sure the moral pursuit of maintaining the existence of evil need's to be very high on the list of priorities.

One thing that has moved to the forefront of people’s minds since this thread started: would you trust a police force (any police force, not just the Met.) to be utterly scrupulous when dealing with murder cases? Even ignoring all the other justifications, if people are wrongly put to death, then it wrecks all the arguments in favour except for that of revenge, and such an emotion should not be part of the system: it is a justice system.

Are you expecting new evidence in the Wayne Couzens case?

Are there not cases in this day and age where the evidence is clearly irrefutable?
 

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AlterEgo

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The "squeamishness" is twofold. Firstly is the irrevocable nature of the punishment, second is the question of if it actually is anything other than institutionalised revenge -
I don't see any of those as cogent arguments. That is the nature of justice. The system takes revenge on criminals in other ways, perhaps by making them work for no pay, sometimes by taking their money and their possessions, and very often, taking their freedom and imprisoning them. The justice system by design inflicts calculated harms on people who have transdgressed. There is no such thing as making good an unjust 25 year prison sentence either - this can also not be undone.

how does imposition of a death sentence represent more of a punishment than a whole life tariff?
Would you rather be killed or put in prison for the whole of your life?
 

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Are you expecting new evidence in the Wayne Couzens case?

Are there not cases in this day and age where the evidence is clearly irrefutable?

This is irrelevant to the argument. Of course there are cases, probably the overwhelming majority, where the police do a good job, but if you are going to the extent of the ultimate sanction, society must be satisfied that every such case is dealt with with absolute thoroughness. Can one be satisfied that every police officer has carried out his role with scrupulous honesty and care? As things stand I, and (I suspect) quite a few others, cannot.

No, I was not thinking of Couzens, but more the almost daily reports of officers who have been disciplined, sacked or convicted of serious offences. If policeman can be found guilty of murder, rape, assault, drugs offences, etc., who is going to say, “Ah, but they do carry out their investigations with total integrity”?
 

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Capital punishment is the most extreme and permanent form of retribution-based justice where it gives some people a feeling of avengement that they often confuse for justice. But despite people's natural fear of death, there is little to no evidence that it deters crime
The justice system is there to dispense justice. That is its principal aim.
 

najaB

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Would you rather be killed or put in prison for the whole of your life?
Would I rather a quick, painless death or to rot away in solitary confinement for 30-plus years? Is that even a question?

(Assuming I committed the crime.)
 

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There are some that argue a whole life tariff is more of a punishment than the death penalty... For me it's more of a matter of, why do we spend millions of pounds maintaining the existence of someone in jail for the rest of their life, who's existence only made the world worse in the first place. I don't think we owe the most evil anything beyond a fair trial. That cell might be better used by someone else, who still has something to offer society back.

'We' have killed more innocent/better people in war with little thought than worthless oxygen wasters we maintain in prison, who've had a great deal of thought. Many good people have died as a result of the health care system's failures, in places due to a lack of resources. The State's resources are not infinite and I'm not sure the moral pursuit of maintaining the existence of evil need's to be very high on the list of priorities.



Are you expecting new evidence in the Wayne Couzens case?

Are there not cases in this day and age where the evidence is clearly irrefutable?

Who knows. Were we expecting new evidence in the case of the Birmingham Six ?

Whatever the technology, there will always be the potential for miscarriages of justice.

I repeat that we are lucky as a country, to have whole life tariffs that mean that there is always a sentence proportionate to the crime.
 

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Would I rather a quick, painless death or to rot away in solitary confinement for 30-plus years? Is that even a question?
Yes it is - because you are suggesting the benefit of 30 years in prison is that you do eventually get out, and if you're wrongly convicted and are innocent your punishment can be undone perhaps at some point along the line - perhaps 20 years into the sentence - and the harm to you lessened.

So which actually would you prefer, and which is the better punishment?
 

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The justice system is there to dispense justice. That is its principal aim.
I would not dispute that, but killing people isn't justice, it's a feeling of avengement that is often confused for justice.

Yes it is - because you are suggesting the benefit of 30 years in prison is that you do eventually get out, and if you're wrongly convicted and are innocent your punishment can be undone perhaps at some point along the line - perhaps 20 years into the sentence - and the harm to you lessened.
While in the long-term you will eventually get out of prison in a 30 year sentence, you will be trapped for 20 years locked away with a routine lifestyle. People will not do well in this sort of lifestyle because it's not our nature to be locked away and to do those sort of things. You might then argue that with that line of reasoning that we should not go for that either, and I would argue that it is indeed preferable to not have to lock people away for life by focusing on actual rehabilitation which will have societal benefits as well as individual benefits. However, unlike the death sentence, life imprisonment can at least be undone in erroneous convictions.
 

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I presume you're talking about the Iraq war (for example). I agree, I was very much against that and was very disturbed to see the bombing of innocent citizens in Baghdad.
Most people weren't against it - I was ambivalent at the time. It is difficult to find anyone who will admit to have supported it. But, as a society, we were quite comfortable with that. And we were very politically comfortable with the collateral of killing civilians in our own country too as "collateral" during the Troubles.

But the death penalty isn't even a response to a perceived emergency that a war might be seen as. As @Typhoon has said the Birmingham Six will have been dead if the death penalty had existed in 1974.
So what? Not that it's not an interesting case, but I find the professed concern about the Birmingham Six and other cases to be chillingly at odds with the grim reality of regular civilian deaths - some unlawful, but some not - in the pursuit of justice, safety and security in Northern Ireland. "Just collateral". There's something which wasn't even a war but everyone was quite accepting of for a long time.

You can release people from jail, but you can't bring them back from the dead.
Quite.
 

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So which actually would you prefer, and which is the better punishment?
It's possible you quoted my post before I edited it, but the quick and painless death would be preferable assuming I was guilty and there was no realistic chance of getting away with it by exploiting a loophole.

However, if I was wrongly convicted I would obviously prefer the life sentence since there is no possiblity of proving my innocence after I've been executed.
 
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AlterEgo

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I would not dispute that, but killing people isn't justice, it's a feeling of avengement that is often confused for justice.
Why is not justice? If you deliberately remove the life of someone, in cold blood, why is it not justice to lose your life in return?
 

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Yes it is - because you are suggesting the benefit of 30 years in prison is that you do eventually get out, and if you're wrongly convicted and are innocent your punishment can be undone perhaps at some point along the line - perhaps 20 years into the sentence - and the harm to you lessened.

So which actually would you prefer, and which is the better punishment?

If people deserve to be released after thirty years. That may not always be the case.
 

yorksrob

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Most people weren't against it - I was ambivalent at the time. It is difficult to find anyone who will admit to have supported it. But, as a society, we were quite comfortable with that. And we were very politically comfortable with the collateral of killing civilians in our own country too as "collateral" during the Troubles.


So what? Not that it's not an interesting case, but I find the professed concern about the Birmingham Six and other cases to be chillingly at odds with the grim reality of regular civilian deaths - some unlawful, but some not - in the pursuit of justice, safety and security in Northern Ireland. "Just collateral". There's something which wasn't even a war but everyone was quite accepting of for a long time.


Quite.

Your point about Northern Irelend is quite right. It's an aberration that a territory of the United Kingdom was subjected to such destruction ( and it was more subject to destruction from its own terrorists than the state).

That situation should in no way act as a blueprint for how the state dispenses justice, in NI or here in GB.
 

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Why is not justice? If you deliberately remove the life of someone, in cold blood, why is it not justice to lose your life in return?
Because killing is arguably not just behaviour or treatment regardless of motives. The only time I think that one can justify killing is when it is a proportionate response to their situation such as when there is a threat to someone else's life or your own that cannot be resolved in any other effective way. Killing someone who is imprisoned and no longer a threat to society is not one of those situations.
 

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And if you rape someone...?
It would in theory be justice for you to suffer the same horror, but of course states don't sanction that as a punishment because rape is a crime of abuse, enjoyment and exploitation. States cannot engage in that sort of behaviour because a state cannot derive the perverse enjoyment from it that a rapist does. The dispassionate removal of life is not the same.

Consider the following:

I punch a man, unprovoked in the face, hurting him. He punches me back to punish me for it. Who can say that was not a just outcome? But if I punch a man, and he goes to the police, of course, the justice system doesn't mete out for someone to punch me in the face in court, do they?

Or, perhaps think about if I commit murder, and am sentenced to a whole life tariff with no chance of parole. In prison, after a year, I am killed by another inmate. Most people would think this a just outcome even if it was extrajudicial.

Many of the objections to the death penalty come from an idea of revenge or the state taking pleasure in administering the penalty. In my view it's just public squeamishness which is hypocritical given the state's many and varied ways of committing grosser injustices which attract nothing like the sort of resistance the death penalty does, and that would involve maybe a few miscarriages of justice a decade if you were unlucky. Really, people were worried about the state killing six innocent Irish people only when it was going to happen in a courtroom and not at the barrel of a soldier's gun. We deleted 100,000 people in Iraq yet claim to be concerned about a few miscarriages of justice. There is collateral everywhere in the justice system!

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Because killing is arguably not just behaviour or treatment regardless of motives. The only time I think that one can justify killing is when it is a proportionate response to their situation such as when there is a threat to someone else's life or your own that cannot be resolved in any other effective way. Killing someone who is imprisoned and no longer a threat to society is not one of those situations.
What about killing key Nazis in peacetime after Nuremberg, why couldn't they all have lived in prison?

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Your point about Northern Irelend is quite right. It's an aberration that a territory of the United Kingdom was subjected to such destruction ( and it was more subject to destruction from its own terrorists than the state).

That situation should in no way act as a blueprint for how the state dispenses justice, in NI or here in GB.
Easy to say that now. I'm afraid societies - including me - do routinely, consciously or not, choose to turn a blind eye to rank injustices of a much greater scale than a handful of miscarriages of justice. We are *very* comfortable with collateral damage, whether that is human life or not.
 

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There have been cases where people have given someone else a thump and they've died. These have tended to fall into the life imprisonment category
 

yorksrob

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It would in theory be justice for you to suffer the same horror, but of course states don't sanction that as a punishment because rape is a crime of abuse, enjoyment and exploitation. States cannot engage in that sort of behaviour because a state cannot derive the perverse enjoyment from it that a rapist does. The dispassionate removal of life is not the same.

Consider the following:

I punch a man, unprovoked in the face, hurting him. He punches me back to punish me for it. Who can say that was not a just outcome? But if I punch a man, and he goes to the police, of course, the justice system doesn't mete out for someone to punch me in the face in court, do they?

Or, perhaps think about if I commit murder, and am sentenced to a whole life tariff with no chance of parole. In prison, after a year, I am killed by another inmate. Most people would think this a just outcome even if it was extrajudicial.

Many of the objections to the death penalty come from an idea of revenge or the state taking pleasure in administering the penalty. In my view it's just public squeamishness which is hypocritical given the state's many and varied ways of committing grosser injustices which attract nothing like the sort of resistance the death penalty does, and that would involve maybe a few miscarriages of justice a decade if you were unlucky. Really, people were worried about the state killing six innocent Irish people only when it was going to happen in a courtroom and not at the barrel of a soldier's gun. We deleted 100,000 people in Iraq yet claim to be concerned about a few miscarriages of justice. There is collateral everywhere in the justice system!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


What about killing key Nazis in peacetime after Nuremberg, why couldn't they all have lived in prison?

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Easy to say that now. I'm afraid societies - including me - do routinely, consciously or not, choose to turn a blind eye to rank injustices of a much greater scale than a handful of miscarriages of justice. We are *very* comfortable with collateral damage, whether that is human life or not.

This is true. Which is why its all the more important to have a justice system that is level headed and proportionate (which is what I think we have with whole life tariffs, life sentences etc...).
 

najaB

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It would in theory be justice for you to suffer the same horror, but of course states don't sanction that as a punishment because rape is a crime of abuse, enjoyment and exploitation.
Rape is very rarely a "crime of enjoyment".
States cannot engage in that sort of behaviour because a state cannot derive the perverse enjoyment from it that a rapist does. The dispassionate removal of life is not the same.
States don't engage in that sort of behaviour because, unlike three-year olds, we recognise that punishment doesn't have to replicate the crime.
What about killing key Nazis in peacetime after Nuremberg, why couldn't they all have lived in prison?
Because the death penalty was on the statue books as an appropriate punishment for their crime.
Easy to say that now. I'm afraid societies - including me - do routinely, consciously or not, choose to turn a blind eye to rank injustices of a much greater scale than a handful of miscarriages of justice.
So it's okay for the state to intentionally and purposefully kill an innocent person for a crime they didn't commit because it only happens "a handful" of times.
 

AlterEgo

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I mean yeah, why couldn't they?
What do you think would have happened? Do you think that a suitable punishment for orchestrating the calculated and mechanical death of 6 million people is....life in jail?
 

najaB

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What do you think would have happened? Do you think that a suitable punishment for orchestrating the calculated and mechanical death of 6 million people is....life in jail?
Yes.

Killing them let them off way too lightly.

They should have been granted the long life that they denied so many others, knowing that they would never, ever, get to see anything outside the walls around them.

No books, no TV, no radio, no family visits... just the four walls and a descent into insanity.
 

AlterEgo

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States don't engage in that sort of behaviour because, unlike three-year olds, we recognise that punishment doesn't have to replicate the crime.
Of course it doesn't. But if I, for example, torture and kill someone over a week, disembowel them and then burn their body, the state doesn't do that to me. And never would. Death would be administered (comparatively) peacefully and in no way a replication of the crime.

Because the death penalty was on the statue books as an appropriate punishment for their crime.
Obviously not the thrust of the question!

So it's okay for the state to intentionally and purposefully kill an innocent person for a crime they didn't commit because it only happens "a handful" of times.
No, it is society being intellectually dishonest and hypocritical to suddenly care about, for example, six people getting put to death by the state in a courtroom, and for society to care little about harms which are several orders of magnitude greater than that. In any case, it is a bad faith answer - one assumes we are both fine with lengthy jail terms for murderers and rapists, but neither of us think it's "okay for the state to intentionally and purposefully incarcerate innocents because it only happens a handful of times". We both accept this as necessary collateral - the risk of doing unimaginable harm to innocent people for the sake of pursuing justice in the wider sense.

As you yourself said, you'd prefer (if guilty) to be put to death than spend life in prison - so I can take it that life in prison is such an unimaginable harm that given the choice you'd rather die than suffer it. But you're still comfortable with putting people in prison, even if that sometimes sweeps up innocents.

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Yes.

Killing them let them off way too lightly.

They should have been granted the long life that they denied so many others, knowing that they would never, ever, get to see anything outside the walls around them.

No books, no TV, no radio, no family visits... just the four walls and a descent into insanity.
Why would you want them to go insane? This seems like something prison isn't actually designed to do.
 

Sorcerer

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What do you think would have happened? Do you think that a suitable punishment for orchestrating the calculated and mechanical death of 6 million people is....life in jail?
I don't see what we could've gained from killing those sorts of people during peacetime after the fall of their tyrannical regime and the death of their diabolical dictator aside from a feeling of avengement for the 12-16 million lives they had taken. That will unfortunately not bring those people back though, and as despicable as the Nazis were, they were still humans with a right to life, and them violating those rights of millions other does not undo that. I despise Nazis and all they stand for, but it is not mine nor anyone else's place to decide whether someone gets to live or die. The Nazis thought they had that right, but they did not, and never will. Spending the rest of their days in prison powerless and unable to harm anyone again is a just sentence.
 

AlterEgo

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I don't see what we could've gained from killing those sorts of people during peacetime after the fall of their tyrannical regime and the death of their diabolical dictator aside from a feeling of avengement for the 12-16 million lives they had taken.
Nuremberg happened in the context of denazification and the deaths of key Nazis was an important part of this. Killing the worst ones ensured Nazism died as a mainstream political ideology as well.
 
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