Cross Country HST withdrawals?

[XAM2175]

You could make it good with all the 221s and 222s in long formations with low density seating, though, or even better get some 80x in and stop Birmingham New St stinking like a giant exhaust pipe.

Even something as simple as replacing the seats with thinner-backed models and turning a few of them here and there to create more table bays would be a palpable upgrade.

 

[GoneSouth]

Yes

… for long distance passengers it does nothing better than National Express does, being fairly slow and cramped.

That’s incredibly unfair!

Some randomly selected example journey times

Leeds to Bristol
NX anything over 6:00, typically 6:15
XC 3:30

York to Plymouth
NX Fastest 11:40, typically over 13:00
XC 6:00

Manchester to Oxford
NX fastest 5:20, typically 5:30 to 6:40
XC 2:50

Cheltenham to Sheffield
NX fastest 4:25, typically 4:40
XC 2:05

Leicester to Birmingham
NX fastest 1:20
XC 0:55

Stoke to Taunton
NX fastest 8:25
XC 3:12

Cardiff to Nottingham
NX fastest 4:50
XC 3:18

Whats terrible about NX is the random timetable and routes, the fastest times quoted are generally once per day and there are very few alternatives. It’s just not a viable way of travelling long distance. I’ll stick to the Voyager where I can get a coffee or glass of wine and not get dumped in Birmingham for 45 minutes waiting for a change.

I’d say XC is definitely doing a better job than anything NX has to offer, I’d never choose to travel by coach with those journey times.

What about cost? Well, there are some very reasonably priced advanced tickets on NX, but not always. After that there really isn’t that much difference between coach and train, especially if single tickets become half the cost of the return as speculated elsewhere.

Anyway, back to HSTs, I’d be incredibly upset if this is an acceleration of managed decline of cross country services. I’ll miss the HSTs as they give a nice peaceful ride without an engine chugging away under your feet.

 

[Mikey C]

For all the talk about this government, have Labour said ANYTHING about fleet reductions and services being shortened/removed?

 

[Annetts key]

Anyway, back to HSTs, I’d be incredibly upset if this is an acceleration of managed decline of cross country services. I’ll miss the HSTs as they give a nice peaceful ride without an engine chugging away under your feet.

Yes, that’s another annoying thing with the 80X when running on the ICE. And just as bad, if you are in a station on the opposite platform to a 80X with its ICE running, they are especially noisy.

The current railway is lucky that I’m not in overall charge. Any glorified DMU would be the train that would be sent to the shredder, yes, that means the all the Voyagers (dreadful trains, trying to compete with the 80X for the most uncomfortable seats) with carriages that often vibrate like a special gift for a lady, 80X with their self destruct feature (the cracking). Although these may get a reprieve if mostly running under the OHL. Turbos would be going the same way. Unfortunately, the lack of stock would sadly mean that all this would take rather a while to implement

Anyway, back on topic, do we know what the future timetable for CrossCountry is likely to look like after all the HSTs have been withdrawn?

 

[Brubulus]

Getting the entire voyager and meridian fleets re-ordered into 26 7 coach Voyagers, 22 5 coach Voyagers and 22 6 coach Meridians with 60 Voyager driving coaches scrapped and 10 Meridian driving coaches scrapped. I would rebalance the timetable if possible to deliver 2tph on Birmingham-Leeds with only 1tph to Manchester as LNWR could provide an extra hourly EMU from Birmingham on that flow. Ditching the irregular extensions entirely would be a large cost saving (crew training in particular) with little extra cost to the core network and the additional patronage and ticket sale opportunities are huge for XC with a large amount of extra capacity. Overall, compared with the current situation (including HSTs and depending on lease costs) , such an expansion of XC could be cost neutral for the DfT given that longer units are cheaper to run per coach than shorter ones with more capacity. Ensuring 2tph on most key XC flows is critical as that is what really drives patronage. Consolidating the entire Bombardier high speed DMU fleet in XC is also very operationally convenient for maintainance etc.

 

[RobShipway]

Getting the entire voyager and meridian fleets re-ordered into 26 7 coach Voyagers, 22 5 coach Voyagers and 22 6 coach Meridians with 60 Voyager driving coaches scrapped and 10 Meridian driving coaches scrapped. I would rebalance the timetable if possible to deliver 2tph on Birmingham-Leeds with only 1tph to Manchester as LNWR could provide an extra hourly EMU from Birmingham on that flow. Ditching the irregular extensions entirely would be a large cost saving (crew training in particular) with little extra cost to the core network and the additional patronage and ticket sale opportunities are huge for XC with a large amount of extra capacity. Overall, compared with the current situation (including HSTs and depending on lease costs) , such an expansion of XC could be cost neutral for the DfT given that longer units are cheaper to run per coach than shorter ones with more capacity. Ensuring 2tph on most key XC flows is critical as that is what really drives patronage. Consolidating the entire Bombardier high speed DMU fleet in XC is also very operationally convenient for maintainance etc.

Whilst the above is in an ideal world, there are going to be few times where 7 coach voyagers and 6 coach Meridians maybe too much for the capacity and this is despite me asking the question in another thread about perhaps inserting the Advanti class 221 non driving carriages into the XC class 221 fleet to make the majority of its fleet 7 carriage trains, with the 4 carriage XC 221's being made up to five carriage.

Whilst I will miss the HST trains, the problem with such trains is that parts are difficult to get and it is more expensive to maintain separate engines to carriages. Hence, why I believe much of the market for such trains back in the 1990's went for the power being within the trains, rather than in separate units at the end of the carriages for the trains. You look at the trains that are within the next few years going to be replacing the XPT (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSW_TrainLink_Regional_Train_Project). They are bi-mode trains, they look to possible have much like the class 231/755/756 to have the power unit within the middle of the train as an example as to how trains are going moving forward.

 

[The Planner]

Nothing or tinkering at the edges will happen to the base. There certainly won't be any re-writes.

 

[Wynd]

Not great news as a semi-regular XC customer. This pushes me that step closer to full time driving.

 

[yorksrob]

For all the talk about this government, have Labour said ANYTHING about fleet reductions and services being shortened/removed?

Labour would need to do something about the DfT if it gets in.

Anyhow, the current lot have had enough opportunity to screw everything up.

 

[Merseyrailfan]

Why don’t they get Class 222s as 7 car units, to improve capacity. 7 cars should be the bare Minimum for intercity trains. 4/5 cars are unsuitable for an operator that does the longest intercity services in this country, though to be fair to cross country, it actually Virgin faults as they introduced them.

 

[lammergeier]

Why don’t they get Class 222s as 7 car units, to improve capacity. 7 cars should be the bare Minimum for intercity trains. 4/5 cars are unsuitable for an operator that does the longest intercity services in this country, though to be fair to cross country, it actually Virgin faults as they introduced them.

For exactly the same reason as the HST's are going - money. All treasury/DfT led.

 

[JonathanH]

Why don’t they get Class 222s as 7 car units, to improve capacity. 7 cars should be the bare Minimum for intercity trains. 4/5 cars are unsuitable for an operator that does the longest intercity services in this country, though to be fair to cross country, it actually Virgin faults as they introduced them.

It adds extra costs and is therefore beyond their budget, not to mention there is nowhere set up to service 7-car 22x units at the moment (other than Etches Park, which isn't available).

 

[Trainbike46]

But are they willing to pay what that better service would cost.
for the businessman the downside is lack of door to door, and lack of flexibility.
I‘m not a parent but from observation I would suggest its more stressful on the train for long distance trips as you are in public and have less flexibility (and much less stuff).

voyagers have relatively low numbers of seats. a refit or new stock would offer way more capacity for the same unit length - and depending on how much the voyagers cost in lease may not actually be more expensive, so would drop the per seat cost. I do really think increasing capacity at a reduced per seat operating cost is the way forward for XC.

For comparison, a 5-car 802 has 326 seats (GWR) or 342 seats (TPE), a 5 car voyager has ~250 seats. That is a lot of extra seat within the same number of coaches, so same staffing costs, lower fuel costs (as bimode). So it would really come down to how much of a difference the leasing costs make.

and if new stock is ordered, it should include an option to add extra coaches within the existing trains when the demand increases - as I think is highly likely

 

[12LDA28C]

And for the record I don't class 40 year old HSTs as good, I've never really liked the Mk3 coach. You could make it good with all the 221s and 222s in long formations with low density seating, though, or even better get some 80x in and stop Birmingham New St stinking like a giant exhaust pipe.

You must be the only person in the world who prefers a 221 to a Mk3 coach.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Why don’t they get Class 222s as 7 car units, to improve capacity. 7 cars should be the bare Minimum for intercity trains. 4/5 cars are unsuitable for an operator that does the longest intercity services in this country, though to be fair to cross country, it actually Virgin faults as they introduced them.

Exactly my thought - converting them to 7-car units with say 1 and a half First Class coaches should be reasonable enough. With 23 x 5-car and 4 x 7-car 222's, you'd have 11 or 12 7-car trains.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

How many families go on holiday by train anyway

Who do you think took the Eurostar to Disneyland Paris - Mickey Mouse himself?

(Though of course that's been dropped this year... good ol' Brexit.)

 

[Mikey C]

Labour would need to do something about the DfT if it gets in.

Anyhow, the current lot have had enough opportunity to screw everything up.

Labour are meant to be the His Majesty's Official Opposition, there to hold the government to account etc

Have they said anything about the withdrawal of rolling stock without replacement, such as the Southern 455s, the Castle HSTs and now the Cross Country HSTs? Or the 379s sitting in sidings?

They were happy to "commit" to HS2 in full though...

 

[Benjwri]

Labour are meant to be the His Majesty's Official Opposition, there to hold the government to account etc

Have they said anything about the withdrawal of rolling stock without replacement, such as the Southern 455s, the Castle HSTs and now the Cross Country HSTs? Or the 379s sitting in sidings?

They were happy to "commit" to HS2 in full though...

There is an extremely limited amount of time available to bring issues up in public forums, such as parliament, and I hate to say it but the country has bigger issues than some capacity on the railways. We don’t know what the shadow government is saying behind closed doors.

 

[ashley84]

I am thinking about writing to my MP about this issue. Does anyone know of any easily accessible overcrowding stats specifically for XC? I can see lots of general stuff by city but I can't seem to find it broken down by route or operator anywhere.
Thank you.

 

[Meerkat]

Who do you think took the Eurostar to Disneyland Paris - Mickey Mouse himself?

(Though of course that's been dropped this year... good ol' Brexit.)

That was non-stop end to end, and weekend based wasn't it?
The first bit makes it more like a flight and the second reduces luggage (and you don't really need much stuff when the place is supposed to provide all entertainment etc)
Do families generally go for weekends away? The only market I could see would be second homers travelling light, but that would be a tricky market to entice (though the alternative being a Friday night slog down the motorway would help)

 

[O L Leigh]

Why don’t they get Class 222s as 7 car units, to improve capacity. 7 cars should be the bare Minimum for intercity trains. 4/5 cars are unsuitable for an operator that does the longest intercity services in this country, though to be fair to cross country, it actually Virgin faults as they introduced them.

Lengthening beyond 5 cars removes the ability to double them up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lengthening beyond 5 cars removes the ability to double them up.

If you go to 7 or 8 you don't need to double them up. There's a lot of wasted space in the cab end coaches, and 10-car is often overkill. Plus you save money that way by only needing one guard and one member of catering crew.

 

[Mikey C]

There is an extremely limited amount of time available to bring issues up in public forums, such as parliament, and I hate to say it but the country has bigger issues than some capacity on the railways. We don’t know what the shadow government is saying behind closed doors.

It doesn't have to be in parliament. Indeed most politics these days happens in the media

 

[Benjwri]

It doesn't have to be in parliament. Indeed most politics these days happens in the media

The opposition still has limited media time, and as I mentioned this is better spent on more pressing issues, of which many of the issues in the railway are a symptom.

As I say we do not know how much pressure is being put in in closed door meetings.

 

[yorksrob]

Labour are meant to be the His Majesty's Official Opposition, there to hold the government to account etc

Have they said anything about the withdrawal of rolling stock without replacement, such as the Southern 455s, the Castle HSTs and now the Cross Country HSTs? Or the 379s sitting in sidings?

They were happy to "commit" to HS2 in full though...

There is an extremely limited amount of time available to bring issues up in public forums, such as parliament, and I hate to say it but the country has bigger issues than some capacity on the railways. We don’t know what the shadow government is saying behind closed doors.

Good and valid points.

I wonder if the transport select committee are aware of this situation.

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder if the transport select committee are aware of this situation.

If there was a call for evidence, it would be pointed out that the reduction in train fleet size firstly removes old rolling stock from the network, secondly matches a reduction in ridership and thirdly meets budgetary constraints.

The committee would be fairly powerless to act on anything.

 

[yorksrob]

If there was a call for evidence, it would be pointed out that the reduction in train fleet size firstly removes old rolling stock from the network, secondly matches a reduction in ridership and thirdly meets budgetary constraints.

The committee would be fairly powerless to act on anything.

But the first point is a irrelevance, and the second is surely open to question, given levels of overcrowding on the XC network.

 

[O L Leigh]

If you go to 7 or 8 you don't need to double them up. There's a lot of wasted space in the cab end coaches, and 10-car is often overkill. Plus you save money that way by only needing one guard and one member of catering crew.

How many saved shifts would be needed to recoup the cost of expanding Central Rivers to cope with these longer formations?

Fact of the matter is that Voyagers are not going to be lengthened. However much it might make sense, it would require a massive investment of the sort the Government is not prepared to make. Heck, according to internal sources, the department is not even prepared to pay for the modest modifications needed to permit a cascade of units from AWC to XC.

 

[yorksrob]

How many saved shifts would be needed to recoup the cost of expanding Central Rivers to cope with these longer formations?

Fact of the matter is that Voyagers are not going to be lengthened. However much it might make sense, it would require a massive investment of the sort the Government is not prepared to make. Heck, according to internal sources, the department is not even prepared to pay for the modest modifications needed to permit a cascade of units from AWC to XC.

All the more reason then, not to remove the HST's which already have the infrastructure in place to look after them.

 

[Wynd]

All the more reason then, not to remove the HST's which already have the infrastructure in place to look after them.

Ideology beats practicality.
Penny wise and pound foolish.

Other versions of cognitive dissonance are available. Just not applicable within 1 hour of the M25.