Yep... Crazy.
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LU/Elizabeth Line 4G update
- Thread starter mrmartin
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JonnyM
Member
If I was in the depths of a large station, say Bank/Monument, and made a 999 call over the station WiFi via WiFi calling how would then the location information be sent to the emergency services?
Generally there's an "emergency address" configured when you set up WiFi calling, which is typically your home address, so presumably that.
Which yes, seems rather useless doesn't it!
JonnyM
Member
Wouldn’t the best position be the the station control room? Each station has one and presumably the existing emergency points within the station and platforms connect here? The emergency services would probably call at the control room first anyway?
At present, each station has Rendezvous Points (you will see RVP signage outside stations, example here) where Fire Brigade / Ambulance service will first attend, unless otherwise advised in the call.
This works because, at present, the only people who (are supposed to) call Fire Brigade or Ambulance is the London Underground Control Centre. When calling Ambulance or Fire Brigade, the staff at the LU Control Centre give the emergency services operator at the other end what is called a “HLUL code” which is a three digit code (four digits for sections between stations), and this pinpoints the location of the applicable RVP on the LAS/LFB computer systems.
Gigabit
Member
Surprised they can't get a location lock underground, I thought there were ways to do this using a combination of triangulation and the cells programmed to report their location
If you're the network or a government agency, you can use cell locations and coverage to work out a likely area a person is in.
CDMA used in the USA, China and various other countries for 3G did include broadcasting the phone site's exact GPS coordinates as part of the spec, but that didn't ever get adopted for 4G/5G, nor WCDMA as we used here.
Your phone will use its own database of cell sites and WiFi networks to help improve GPS location, though, but this is different and relies on other users with GPS having connected or seen these cell sites and WiFi networks in the past for the data to be accurate.
This is why Google Maps will show your location in deep level tube when on WiFi — people have gotten GPS fixes as they leave the station, and Google has recorded these and can infer your location as a result. Similarly, on the Copenhagen Metro, no matter where you are in the tunnels, Google Maps will think you're in the Metro maintenance facility since that's the only place you get underground-style 4G while also having GPS!
matt_world2004
Established Member
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- 5 Nov 2014
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- 4,578
The tunnels at Heathrow central (HEx Elizabeth line) show their location as Hayes and Harlington station when on 4g .I always assumed that is where the signal was routed via
It'll just be that people stay on the tunnel 4G signal for a few seconds after they leave the tunnel, so Google sees the GPS location kick in, and the ID for the 4G coverage in the tunnel, so adds 2 and 2 to get 8.
Gigabit
Member
How come some stations on the Underground don't have any GPS lock? At South Ken it always thinks I'm still at Earl's Court
Because it's rather difficult to get a satellite signal when you're 20 metres below the ground...
IndianPacific
Member
If you'll let me indulge in a bit of pedantry, the actual satellite signal maybe, but a GPS feed isn't that difficult any more.
GNSS repeaters have been around for a while, more often used in road tunnels to keep peoples sat navs working, e.g;
SubWAVE Underground GNSS Coverage - Chronos Technology
Syntony SubWAVE solution can provide 100% GPS GNSS coverage in subterranean locations which are computable by standard receivers.
chronos.uk
So, like a lot of things, the problem is solvable but needs a bit of money so probably wont happen.
But the issue then is installing the infra for that too... We've all seen how long it takes for just 4G and other mobile connectivity.If you'll let me indulge in a bit of pedantry, the actual satellite signal maybe, but a GPS feed isn't that difficult any more.
GNSS repeaters have been around for a while, more often used in road tunnels to keep peoples sat navs working, e.g;
SubWAVE Underground GNSS Coverage - Chronos Technology
Syntony SubWAVE solution can provide 100% GPS GNSS coverage in subterranean locations which are computable by standard receivers.
So, like a lot of things, the problem is solvable but needs a bit of money so probably wont happen.
ThameslinkUser
Member
Very interesting, thanks. They are basically the same stations promised for Dec '22, so looks like the rollout is about 9 months delayed. It may be they can launch loads of new stations quick(er/ly) after they turn stuff on.
Still no mention of the elizabeth line as well. My understanding is the equipment is installed but can't be turned on for another strange reason?
bcarmicle
Member
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- 293
That last sentence isn't true, is it? Anyone on an MVNO won't have station WiFi access.
JonnyM
Member
Thanks, good find. It’s interesting to see what it doesn’t say rather than what it does.
As MrMartin stated, what’s happened to the Elizabeth line? Not mentioned at all.
It looks like ”end of 2024” has been dropped.
Wasn‘t Bank one of the origin stations promised last year? Due to its size, maybe too ambitious at the moment?
This is the map of 'summer' coverage:
Most will. giffgaff/Tesco/etc get WiFi Extra through O2. Voxi will get it through Vodafone fine. Can't remember about the rest, but most should be fine.
jumble
Established Member
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- 1,253
Indeed how about people using a voip softphone or something like the 3CX app back to a hosted exchange on WiFi if they have no calling credit left?
How could that possibly be tracked by emergency services ?
Also worth mentioning 999 calls will also transmit GPS location to the emergency services when using WiFi Calling, too.
Adam Williams
Established Member
It was already really poor how little progress has been made here, and now they're dropping the "by the end of 2024" commitment?
JonnyM
Member
The dropping of the 2024 deadline isn’t confirmed, however it is no longer mentioned in the TfL report.
On the TfL website they are still promising full 5G coverage of the whole by the end of 2024. Take with a pinch of salt though.
matt_world2004
Established Member
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This is how tfl started pushing the idea the Elizabeth line was delayed drop all mention of date then announce a few months later of a delay
Voxi absolurly
Initially it isn't essential as you want the biggest customer base to begin with, so that's still 4G right now.
I guess it will be pretty easy to add 5G support later, ready for the eventual activation/switch to Standalone 5G that will see a big drop in latency.
Initially it isn't essential as you want the biggest customer base to begin with, so that's still 4G right now.
Virgin Mobile is an example of one that uses the O2 network and hasn't got access to Wi-Fi - even though it is part of the same group as O2 and used to run the Wi-Fi on the underground. They say customers will get it in the next few months only once customers transfer over to an O2 contract (having initially said that customers had it, then that it was down to a technical issue, and finally admitted that customers could not use it).
Brilliant. TFL should put up an official Tube map on their site which shows the sections with mobile coverage.
JonnyM
Member
They did something very similar when the (then) Virgin Media WiFi was rolling out just before the Olympics. It was very useful.