Ticket office closures

[MikeWM]

Hmmm. If I've done the conversion correctly, that's a penalty of around £7 (per ticket?) for not having a smartphone. Lovely!

At some point we really are going to have to seriously question how reasonable and sensible it is to expect people to have to pay large amounts of money, and have large amounts of highly personal data amassed by, one or other of two huge multinational corporations - merely in order to operate in the world.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Hmmm. If I've done the conversion correctly, that's a penalty of around £7 (per ticket?) for not having a smartphone. Lovely!

Yup that’s about right!

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed Sweden, having already shut all ticket offices, including that at its Capital City - Stockholm Central is now moving onto the next phase of shutting all ticket machines with people without smartphones having to pay a supplement to have their tickets printed at station shops!!

What a dreadful idea.

I thought Sweden was supposed to be a sensible country.

 

[Bald Rick]

But I hadn't bought it as an e-ticket, and I'm not going to for a plethora of reasons.

Your choice of course. Most people find it much easier and more convenient.

 

[Thirteen]

What a dreadful idea.

I thought Sweden was supposed to be a sensible country.

Sweden is well ahead in terms of cashless society, I do think getting rid of ticket machines is not going to happen here for quite some time.

 

[AdamWW]

What a dreadful idea.

I thought Sweden was supposed to be a sensible country.

It also seems a little disengenious to justify removing ticket machines by the low percentage of tickets sold via them when you have already removed them from most stations.

Sweden is well ahead in terms of cashless society, I do think getting rid of ticket machines is not going to happen here for quite some time.

"Cashless society" is one thing, but this isn't just removing the ability to use cash at a ticket machine, it's making life hard for anybody without a (functioning) smartphone.

It doesn't seem very helpful to make life more expensive for someone who can't afford a smartphone.

 

[Mabs]

Easy. Either:

1) you buy it as an e-ticket, and get the refund that way
2) even easier, You check if the train is running before buying a ticket, and don’t even buy it.

There is often a £10 cancellation fee.
Staff in ticket office can waive the fee for a valid reason but a computer most likely won't.

 

[Bald Rick]

Staff in ticket office can waive the fee for a valid reason but a computer most likely won't.

Well that will have to change then!

 

[Mabs]

That's fair enough but of course people that use ticket offices are usually not regular rail commuters. They are more likely infrequent travellers who are not quite so au fait with the type of tickets available, the restrictions applicable to their use and routes available to get to an unfamiliar destination.

I found the regular commuters are fine doing their daily run they've been doing for the last 20 years but as soon as there is cancellations/ diversions. They need as much or if not then need even more help plan their route than those infrequent passengers.

Sweden is well ahead in terms of cashless society, I do think getting rid of ticket machines is not going to happen here for quite some time.

Last week Mastercard was down for the whole of England for the whole day. A lot of people relied on that single card. Not a good position to be in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Something that's not in the public domain is the proportion of the 12% transactions at ticket offices that are for "simple" on the day walk-up tickets e.g. a pro-union friend of mine always uses Aldershot's ticket office although he's only buying One Day Travelcards, day returns to Frimley and the like.

Most Merseyrail ticket offices spend the day selling returns to Liverpool, day tickets and Saveaways.

 

[AdamWW]

There is often a £10 cancellation fee.
Staff in ticket office can waive the fee for a valid reason but a computer most likely won't.

If someone decides not to travel due to disruption, they're entitled to their money back without an admin fee, aren't they?

 

[MikeWM]

Your choice of course. Most people find it much easier and more convenient.

I fail to see it would be more convenient than the process I had this morning:

- Get to station, TVM, press four or five buttons, put in cash, get ticket.
- Go through barrier.
- See nothing is moving, guess nothing is going to move for a while (a reasonable guess, nothing moved for over 2 hours in the end, line has only just reopened).
- Show ticket to guy on gate, say 'want a refund', get let through
- Ticket office, say 'want a refund', a few buttons are pressed, cash is back in my pocket.

Trivial. No forms to fill in, no explanations required as to why my ticket was 'used' in the barriers, got my money back immediately without question.

 

[AdamWW]

Your choice of course. Most people find it much easier and more convenient.

If you're travelling as a family, do you:
1) Have all the e-tickets on one phone and swipe through each one at a ticket check (I'm not sure what you would do at barriers - all try to get through a wide one?)
2) Email everyone their own ticket (assuming children have their own smartphone)
3) Print out all the tickets (side of A4 each) - if you're buying them at home and you have a printer
or
4) Go to a machine and get a convenient set of bits of card which can all be easily shown together on trains but handed out to individuals when going through barriers?

 

[WelshBluebird]

If someone decides not to travel due to disruption, they're entitled to their money back without an admin fee, aren't they?

The point still stands though, quite often "computer says no" is the outcome even though apps / websites should recognise that there has been disruption and to waive the fee, they do not always do so.

 

[bramling]

With respect, I’d question how many ticket office staff are in the habit of leaving their office to come out and deal with ‘weirdos’ or anti social behaviour, particularly ‘late evening’. Admittedly they may call for assistance I suppose, but given the huge focus on conflict avoidance that most TOCs follow, I’d imagine placing oneself directly into harm’s way might be actively discouraged? However, if said staff were already employed to floor walk, or man the gateline or platforms, the deterrent is already in place!

I’m not convinced that’s what happens in practice. A member of staff in an office can keep an eye on what is going on, especially if they have access to CCTV views. By having the ticket window there it makes them accessible, whilst at the same time everyone can see that the station is being monitored.

Easy. Either:

1) you buy it as an e-ticket, and get the refund that way
2) even easier, You check if the train is running before buying a ticket, and don’t even buy it.

Hmm. I tried that at Cardiff Central the other week, albeit with a paper ticket. The train was shown as “on time” before, at, and after departure time, even though it was becoming apparent from OTT maps that it wasn’t going to run (as the incoming working had been turned short and was now running ECS). Being the last Cardiff to Rhymney service of the day that didn’t involve having to take a bus back, we decided not to bother. Needless to say there was zero information from station staff, nor on the CIS screens.

 

[AdamWW]

The point still stands though, quite often "computer says no" is the outcome even though apps / websites should recognise that there has been disruption and to waive the fee, they do not always do so.

I have never tried it but I'd hope that with some persistance one would succeed.

Of course this is not as convenient as just getting your money back straight away at a ticket office.

 

[RailWonderer]

Was there uproar when they closed the travel centres? Another victim of progress I guess?

It's not progress, it's regress.

What a dreadful idea.

I thought Sweden was supposed to be a sensible country.

It's called Nordic minimalism. Little of everything.

 

[Mabs]

If someone decides not to travel due to disruption, they're entitled to their money back without an admin fee, aren't they?

Customers will have to apply online in the future and take it from there. Millions of people probably won't bother so therefore making more money for the Government.

Do we really want a system similar to booking flights online. One spelling mistake, date or destination mistake could cost a lot of money to fix depending on the number of passengers travelling and total number of tickets.

In the airline business all mistakes costs money to fix unless you pay extra to book that allows changes for free.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you're travelling as a family, do you:
1) Have all the e-tickets on one phone and swipe through each one at a ticket check (I'm not sure what you would do at barriers - all try to get through a wide one?)
2) Email everyone their own ticket (assuming children have their own smartphone)
3) Print out all the tickets (side of A4 each) - if you're buying them at home and you have a printer
or
4) Go to a machine and get a convenient set of bits of card which can all be easily shown together on trains but handed out to individuals when going through barriers?

1)

 

[Buzby]

Do many people still use ticket offices? I travel thousands of miles per month on rail and never do - its all apps or website. Don't want to see anyone out if a job mind and always preferable to have a staffed station than not.

Sadly, I do because my main purchases are tickets the TVM doesn’t sell! Apparently they did in the beginning but because of high fraud levels they removed them, requiring a ticket office purchase by showing the relevant ID or on-train. If the collector doesn’t come by it’s a free trip. I’ve stopped feeling guilty about it as I have no other opportunities to purchase.

PS I think Clydebank ticket office has closed already - it’s never open when I go there at weekend.

 

[AdamWW]

1)

What do people do at barriers? Just show one of the tickets and all waltz through the wide one?

I've seen people being told they aren't allowed to do that - one person, one ticket.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I have never tried it but I'd hope that with some persistance one would succeed.

Of course this is not as convenient as just getting your money back straight away at a ticket office.

Indeed but as you say it isn't as easy. I had to deal with an offshore live chat thing 2 weeks ago (that took 20 minutes and me repeating the fact I was entitled to a refund without the admin fee because my train had been cancelled about 4 times) to get a refund. I can tell you right away my parents just wouldn't have bothered.

 

[Mabs]

What do people do at barriers? Just show one of the tickets and all waltz through the wide one?

I've seen people being told they aren't allowed to do that - one person, one ticket.

When I work at the Gateline for TFL. I report all passengers travelling without a valid ticket eg Forcing the gate open, jumping over the barrier or double gating.

This is done quickly on the tablet. What happens after I'm note sure but there is lots of cctv cameras at the gateline and it's easy to catch people doing double gating especially when one of them paid by card.

I even told a mother off. I said your daughter is 14 or 15 and you're teaching her to double gate. It's stealing, you're on camera. Pay up or il report you.

She got scared and paid up.

 

[AlterEgo]

What do people do at barriers? Just show one of the tickets and all waltz through the wide one?

I've seen people being told they aren't allowed to do that - one person, one ticket.

Yes, or stand there and use the decide to open the gates with each code, then going through last. It is very easy.

 

[ainsworth74]

It strikes (perhaps a poor choice of word ) me that the extremes on both sides of this issue are extremely unhelpful and, to be honest, likely to be a detriment to everyone.

Is it correct that ticket offices play a significantly reduced role in issuing tickets? Yes, unarguably so. Anyone who pretends otherwise is being daft all the numbers tell us that fewer tickets are being sold by ticket offices to fewer passengers.

Is it correct that still, in some situations, ticket offices play an important role in retail matters? Yes, unarguably so. Anyone who pretends otherwise is being daft and everyone can think of situations where a member of staff with detailed training on retailing tickets will be the best way for a passenger to access the railway. Whether that's granny Smith going from Bognor Regis to visit the grandchildren in Bolton needing a ticket clerk to help sort out her reservations and tickets, a member of railway staff wanting to buy a Priv rate ticket, a tourist fresh of the plane with no knowledge of the UK railway network or an enthusiast after a rover or ranger.

Arguing the toss about those two different positions wastes everyone's time and energy on matters which are, frankly, irrelevant.

For more useful is probably to try and take a slightly more objective view of where it makes sense to deploy staff behind traditional counters dedicated to retailing tickets (airport stations, major London/other large city stations, tourist hotspots all seem logical places), where it make sense to have staff in a more hybrid role where they're roving slightly more around the station (so they might be helping with passenger assistance, helping passengers with general queries, helping passengers who need a ticket but are struggling, etc) and where, fundamentally, it might make more sense to just de-staff the station completely.

Thinking local to me I can see an argument for de-staffing Redcar Central. The waiting room is only open when the ticket office is (which is typically only between 0700 and 1330) there is only a disabled toilet (which has radar key access so is actually accessible at all times not just when the waiting room is open) and station facilities wise that's about it. Considering the station is unstaffed after 1330 I'm not sure it's really going to make a massive difference if it was unstaffed all the time. The ticket office certainly gets used but it's been a while since I've seen a massive queue like you would have seen in years gone by. Meanwhile somewhere like Middlesbrough where the station is staffed all day, it's a substantial building and the ticket office is open most of the day (from 0600 ish until 1900 ish) but again doesn't see that much trade and perhaps here an approach of having a good bank of TVMs (there's only one at the moment) with staff more mobile around the station (but there to dip and help out with retail issues as needed) would make sense.

The present situation of just ticket offices open which sell only a few tickets an hour doesn't seem sustainable but getting into a bunfight about it all doesn't seem especially productive compared to thinking about how the resources involved could actually be best deployed. In some places that will be to keep a traditional ticket office, in some places that will likely be outright closure and de-staffing, and in others probably a change in the role of the staff at that station.

RMT/TSSA would, if they hadn't have been riled up by DfT/HMT intransigence more generally, be best served I suspect in working on that basis to get the best deal for their members. But it seems, from this thread at least, we're about to have exactly the same extreme fight where one side insist that no changes can be countenanced at all and the other side insists that everything must change and do so immediately.

 

[northwichcat]

Ticket offices at a few of the larger stations are all that is needed, anything else, do on line at TVMs or from a guard.

I'd say the opposite is true. At smaller stations the person manning the ticket office is the only person of station staff. If you close the ticket office, then you remove the possibility of having a member of staff there for an extended period of time, as you're also closing the staff toilet and removing the facilities for them to get a cuppa.

I've been to largish stations in Europe where there's no ticket office but there's a couple of people in railway uniforms on hand to provide assistance to those using the TVMs. There's no reason why that wouldn't work at the big stations in London.

At Northern stations there's been an increase in refreshment vending machines located in ticket offices in recent years. Presumably closing the ticket offices removes the option to retain these facilities at some stations, as the insurance risk of leaving them in unstaffed areas would be much higher. I also observed TransPennine Express seem to have installed water refilling stations at many of the stations they manage, including smallish stations like Greenfield. That's something we should be encouraging more of.

Thinking local to me I can see an argument for de-staffing Redcar Central. The waiting room is only open when the ticket office is (which is typically only between 0700 and 1330) there is only a disabled toilet (which has radar key access so is actually accessible at all times not just when the waiting room is open) and station facilities wise that's about it. Considering the station is unstaffed after 1330 I'm not sure it's really going to make a massive difference if it was unstaffed all the time. The ticket office certainly gets used but it's been a while since I've seen a massive queue like you would have seen in years gone by. Meanwhile somewhere like Middlesbrough where the station is staffed all day, it's a substantial building and the ticket office is open most of the day (from 0600 ish until 1900 ish) but again doesn't see that much trade and perhaps here an approach of having a good bank of TVMs (there's only one at the moment) with staff more mobile around the station (but there to dip and help out with retail issues as needed) would make sense.

If the station has an AM ticket office, presumably the thinking is most people are travelling out in the morning and back to the station in the afternoon/evening. In cases like this a member of staff can provide an important role during disruption e.g. keeping passengers updated, directing them to replacement buses or advising them on alternative routes or alternative connections.

I've seen the ticket office person at Northwich doing odd jobs around the station, such as cleaning benches, emptying bins, sweeping up leaves, putting down grit salt, mopping the floor etc. If these people no longer have jobs, then either medium usage stations will be less well maintained or they'll need to employ people in alternative roles (even if it's one person for a group of stations).

 

[ainsworth74]

I fail to see it would be more convenient than the process I had this morning:

- Get to station, TVM, press four or five buttons, put in cash, get ticket.
- Go through barrier.
- See nothing is moving, guess nothing is going to move for a while (a reasonable guess, nothing moved for over 2 hours in the end, line has only just reopened).
- Show ticket to guy on gate, say 'want a refund', get let through
- Ticket office, say 'want a refund', a few buttons are pressed, cash is back in my pocket.

Trivial. No forms to fill in, no explanations required as to why my ticket was 'used' in the barriers, got my money back immediately without question.

I had to refund some e-tickets recently due to a cancelled train that I bought through the Forums ticket site.

I went to the site, chose "refunds", entered the booking reference and email, chose the reason for the request (disruption), and asked for a refund. It was authorised a few hours later and the money arrived a day or two after that. Easy peasy and all done from the convenience of my sofa.

I appreciate that due to your preference to conduct as much of your life as possible in cash that you won't see that as being easy. But for the vast majority who don't share your same concern it isn't a problem. And it isn't really a reason to retain ticket offices at every station that currently has one (though Ely is one of those station where I'd think that keeping a staff presence, even if not a traditional ticket office, makes sense). After all, in another scenario you go to the TVM, put your cash in, get to the platform find all the trains are cancelled and as there isn't a ticket office (the case at a lot of stations) you're now writing to TOC customer services. Far more long winded that refunding an e-ticket...

What do people do at barriers? Just show one of the tickets and all waltz through the wide one?

When I travel with my mum using e-tickets we go to a barrier, I scan her ticket on my phone to the scanner on the barrier, she walks through, I scan my ticket on the barrier and I walk through. Simples!

 

[AdamWW]

I'd say the opposite is true. At smaller stations the person manning the ticket office is the only person of station staff. If you close the ticket office, then you remove the possibility of having a member of staff there for an extended period of time, as you're also closing the staff toilet and removing the facilities for them to get a cuppa.

I don't think that has to follow.

You can close the ticket counter without removing staff facilities.

I went to the site, chose "refunds", entered the booking reference and email, chose the reason for the request (disruption), and asked for a refund. It was authorised a few hours later and the money arrived a day or two after that. Easy peasy and all done from the convenience of my sofa.

Perhaps that's the answer then..use Trainsplit...

It sounds as if some retailers don't make things as easy.

 

[ainsworth74]

If the station has an AM ticket office, presumably the thinking is most people are travelling out in the morning and back to the station in the afternoon/evening. In cases like this a member of staff can provide an important role during disruption e.g. keeping passengers updated, directing them to replacement buses or advising them on alternative routes or alternative connections.

I'm not sure that' entirely true post-Covid as you certainly see large groups of passengers in the afternoon/evening, potentially as large as those travelling in the morning. You're right on the disruption side they can help out (though they are still tied to a ticket office of course right now!). But then, how about in the afternoon/evening? Passengers just have to get on with it then...

I don't dispute that a member of staff at Redcar Central isn't useful (and I certainly don't wish them out of a job!!) but at the same time is it actually a good use of resources to staff a ticket office six hours?

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think that has to follow.

You can close the ticket counter without removing staff facilities.

But then where's the saving? The cost of maintaining one computer with a ticket printer is going to be significantly less than the cost of employing the member of staff. And if the plan is to find alternative uses for the ticket office building to generate revenue it'll be difficult to keep anything for the staff there.