Southern Railway much improved?

[yorksrob]

You’d probably also massively improve the standard of care, as has been the experience elsewhere.

Nowhere else in the developed world has chosen the same funding model as the NHS. There’s a reason for that…

Well, the private sector isn't in itself a magic wand.

Any change in system would need a good comparison of inputs versus outputs.

 

[blelic]

Does that outrank the number of people wishing to travel to Victoria?

Journey time to Victoria would be increased by…. 2 minutes. I don’t think most passengers to Victoria would even notice that change. I tend to agree that the HHE stop isn’t necessary, but we’ve got it, so I was working on the assumption that it would continue. BTN - GTW - ECR - CLJ - VIC would be what I would want personally.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Journey time to Victoria would be increased by…. 2 minutes.

Every minute counts.

I tend to agree that the HHE stop isn’t necessary, but we’ve got it

HHE is a more useful junction station for the majority of passengers and operational flexibility in service recovery for the onward coastway connections. Cancel a coastway train from VIC - HHE for service recovery and you still have a connection for passengers from VIC. This logic does not apply for Clapham Junction and is therefore less useful for the vast majority of GTR passengers using the GX.

BTN - GTW - ECR - CLJ - VIC

Okay, and the Preston Park people want Preston Park added, it's very useful for them.
And the Hassocks customers want Hassocks added, it's very useful for them.
And the Burgess Hill passengers want Burgess Hill added, it's very useful for them.
And the Haywards Heath punters don't want to lose their stop, it's very useful for them and others.

Of course, this is what happens in the peak. And what happens to journey times? It is destroyed. But, hey, I'm sure all of the people from Brighton, Preston Park, Hassocks, Burgess Hill, Haywards Heath, and Gatwick Airport all really need to travel to East Croydon and Gatwick Airport on an extra train above and beyond the current provision. I'm sure that's why the GX is so lightly loaded and this is the highest demand that is seen on Twitter.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Journey time to Victoria would be increased by…. 2 minutes. I don’t think most passengers to Victoria would even notice that change. I tend to agree that the HHE stop isn’t necessary, but we’ve got it, so I was working on the assumption that it would continue. BTN - GTW - ECR - CLJ - VIC would be what I would want personally.

Absolutely the point is the industry needs to maximise revenue and Brighton is a hotspot that attracts people on days out. SW London contains above average earnings populous and has low car headcount with younger generation who will support public transport. Industry talks about connectivity being a key enabler as well to encourage modal shift so make it easy.

The Southern is no longer a core commuter railway it needs to adapt to changing times.

 

[PGAT]

There’s 4 minutes of padding between Victoria and Gatwick on the WTT, enough for stops at Clapham and East Croydon to be added without hindering journey times. When I’m spotting at Selhurst, most GX services pass several minutes early and have to wait for a slot at Windmill Bridge Junction

 

[Park47515]

Every minute counts.


HHE is a more useful junction station for the majority of passengers and operational flexibility in service recovery for the onward coastway connections. Cancel a coastway train from VIC - HHE for service recovery and you still have a connection for passengers from VIC. This logic does not apply for Clapham Junction and is therefore less useful for the vast majority of GTR passengers using the GX.


Okay, and the Preston Park people want Preston Park added, it's very useful for them.
And the Hassocks customers want Hassocks added, it's very useful for them.
And the Burgess Hill passengers want Burgess Hill added, it's very useful for them.
And the Haywards Heath punters don't want to lose their stop, it's very useful for them and others.

Of course, this is what happens in the peak. And what happens to journey times? It is destroyed. But, hey, I'm sure all of the people from Brighton, Preston Park, Hassocks, Burgess Hill, Haywards Heath, and Gatwick Airport all really need to travel to East Croydon and Gatwick Airport on an extra train above and beyond the current provision. I'm sure that's why the GX is so lightly loaded and this is the highest demand that is seen on Twitter.

Here's an idea, could always just run all 6 Brighton trains, all stations. Everyone would be happy then.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

without hindering journey times.

The BML is famous for having no delays created in bottlenecks. Padding is sensible for reliability.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2023 ==

Everyone would be happy then.

Aside from those that use trains because of time incentives. What is the benefit to giving Balcombe 10tph to London? Is there a greater net proportion for time saved to those at Balcombe or a greater net delay to those on board being delayed unnecessarily?

 

[PGAT]

The BML is famous for having no delays created in bottlenecks. Padding is sensible for reliability.

Just making a point that’s it’s do-able. Not much time is saved trudging through East Croydon at 30 or 45 mph

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Just making a point that’s it’s do-able. Not much time is saved trudging through East Croydon at 30 or 45 mph

Its doable its obsession of DfT that GX some how earns valuable income as they can sell a premium ticket to unknowing tourists and if your non stop you can't do that. Of course anyone that bothers to go and take a look at ECR will see Southerns rocking up well loaded with airport passengers whilst watching the previous GX run through with fresh air.

 

[modernrail]

Absolutely the point is the industry needs to maximise revenue and Brighton is a hotspot that attracts people on days out. SW London contains above average earnings populous and has low car headcount with younger generation who will support public transport. Industry talks about connectivity being a key enabler as well to encourage modal shift so make it easy.

The Southern is no longer a core commuter railway it needs to adapt to changing times.

Absolutely this. This is the exact point. The GX solution is out of date, it only sort of made sense with peak pre-Covid commuter service. I don’t think it has ever made sense in the off-peak, which is most of the day - and where a lot of the revenue now sits.

 

[Minstral25]

There’s 4 minutes of padding between Victoria and Gatwick on the WTT, enough for stops at Clapham and East Croydon to be added without hindering journey times. When I’m spotting at Selhurst, most GX services pass several minutes early and have to wait for a slot at Windmill Bridge Junction

To be fair there are 4 trains an hour between East Croydon and Brighton (2 of them only 4 stops BUG/HHE/TBD/GTW only) - just Clapham will do for passengers using the train from Brighton who otherwise do not have a service to Clapham.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

just Clapham will do for passengers using the train from Brighton who otherwise do not have a service to Clapham.

But it's still a very slim number of people that can already make the journey with a same platform change of a couple of mins. If it was of any concern, it would've been dealt with already considering just how vocal and effective the MPs in the area are. If they can get Preston Park added to the GX then I think they can get Clapham Junction if people actually are demanding it.

 

[modernrail]

To be fair there are 4 trains an hour between East Croydon and Brighton (2 of them only 4 stops BUG/HHE/TBD/GTW only) - just Clapham will do for passengers using the train from Brighton who otherwise do not have a service to Clapham.

So there are no fast trains between East Croydon and Brighton. I actually thought some TL stopped at less places than that but it would explain the oddly long Brighton journey times I seem to find these days when connecting through Clapham Junction or East Croydon.

I don’t get the position of the GX defenders. Obviously as efficient railway should have services between its two main terminus stations that stop at the main interchanges. They are and always have been East Croydon and Clapham Junction. Those two stations provide Brighton fasts with a huge number of interchange opportunities = operational efficiency, appealing overall journey times, max revenue.

If it just the desire for a very fast Brighton to London Victoria service, didn’t there used to be one an hour that only stopped only at Clapham Junction? However, in a post-Covid world I really do think the emphasis should be on making sure those interchange points are well serviced to max out revenue per train. Any crack expresses should probably be reserved for the peaks.

 

[JonathanH]

If it just the desire for a very fast Brighton to London Victoria service, didn’t there used to be one an hour that only stopped only at Clapham Junction?

Historically one, then two an hour that stopped only at East Croydon, not Clapham Junction. The Clapham Junction stop was inserted later.

However, that got changed when it was merged with Gatwick Express, and then it became a service that only stopped at Gatwick Airport.

I don’t get the position of the GX defenders.

Is it defending Gatwick Express, or defending separate trains to the West and East Coastway? I dont really have high regard for Gatwick Express, but I would rather see separate trains for Eastbourne and Worthing than 8tph from London to Brighton and inadequate shared provision for the two coastways.

The fact is that GTR want to run a train that runs non stop from London Victoria to Gatwick Airport. By running it to Brighton, it gives Brighton a fast service to London which seems desirable.

 

[modernrail]

But it's still a very slim number of people that can already make the journey with a same platform change of a couple of mins. If it was of any concern, it would've been dealt with already considering just how vocal and effective the MPs in the area are. If they can get Preston Park added to the GX then I think they can get Clapham Junction if people actually are demanding it.

I don’t think the main losers are Brighton passengers, they are the work or leisure market from south london who are faced with an oddly sub-optimal set of journeys/connections to access Brighton. I was down last week to visit the offshore wind array on a work trip and the journey in both directions was quite a bit longer than it could have been. I don’t think all the south London MPs are likely to see campaigning on that to be a priority when they are fighting metro cuts.

Anyway, we have probably done that one to death. There are obviously deferent views, I stand firm on mine on this one. I am not remotely persuaded by the counter argument.

It does speak to another point though. With a slight slackening of demand, if you believe that is and will remain the case, is this the moment to try and recast the timetables to create an integrated railway that really does max out resources in a way we have not seen before, rather than for instance doing what TP are doing which is stuffing the whole thing up by pursuing fake operational efficiency through crew changes.

 

[JonathanH]

I don’t think the main losers are Brighton passengers, they are the work or leisure market from south london who are faced with an oddly sub-optimal set of journeys/connections to access Brighton.

Five minutes from Clapham Junction, with a simple change at Haywards Heath.

The 'Gatwick Express' trains are stopping at Clapham Junction and East Croydon this week due to industrial action. It would be interesting to know whether that is having any noticeable impact on loadings and revenue.

 

[modernrail]

Five minutes from Clapham Junction, with a simple change at Haywards Heath.

The 'Gatwick Express' trains are stopping at Clapham Junction and East Croydon this week due to industrial action. It would be interesting to know whether that is having any noticeable impact on loadings and revenue.

I am sure it is having a huge impact as the whole of southern England has absolutely noticed this has happened for 1 week only and decided to immediately try this excellent range of new interchange opportunities that always used to exist, from the inception of the railway to the day when somebody made the great GX error.

Funny how a few Brighton to Victoria passengers here seem be content for everybody else to have changes, an extra 5 mins here or there and then enter a minor meltdown when it is suggested their train might stop for a couple of mins at a rather useful set of interchanges. Double standards.

Also… what they have done this week with the stopping pattern rather answers the exam question in itself. It is more operationally efficient.

I suppose another way to tackle it though would be to introduce a GX premium fare for all Brighton to Victoria passengers and up revenue that way.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Also… what they have done this week with the stopping pattern rather answers the exam question in itself. It is more operationally efficient.

I sure do wonder if it’s actually because services have been cut to the teeth and the normal service provision isn’t provided for the high flow between ECR and CLJ/VIC.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2023 ==

I suppose another way to tackle it though would be to introduce a GX premium fare for all Brighton to Victoria passengers and up revenue that way.

There used to be when 1As ran alongside it. This is such a strawman argument because you had a 5 min connection on your journey to the coast.

 

[Kumquat]

My purely anecdotal evidence is that buses between Croydon and CJ seem more crowded than in 2019, thanks to fewer trains (2 instead of 4tph on the various stopping services) and people are therefore getting the bus to Brixton or the Northern Line tube to get to central London, rather than risk missing a half-hourly train.

 

[WizCastro197]

My purely anecdotal evidence is that buses between Croydon and CJ seem more crowded than in 2019, thanks to fewer trains (2 instead of 4tph on the various stopping services) and people are therefore getting the bus to Brixton or the Northern Line tube to get to central London, rather than risk missing a half-hourly train.

There are three per hour between Croydon and Clapham, 2 from West Croydon via Crystal Palace and then the Watford Junction stopping service from East Croydon.

But what I can say I'm enjoying from Southern, is the hourly Victoria-Portsmouth & Bognor Regis services on Sundays. They are incredibly useful for getting into Victoria quickly as well as reaching a new set of destinations to the south.

 

[PGAT]

There are three per hour between Croydon and Clapham, 2 from West Croydon via Crystal Palace and then the Watford Junction stopping service from East Croydon.

But what I can say I'm enjoying from Southern, is the hourly Victoria-Portsmouth & Bognor Regis services on Sundays. They are incredibly useful for getting into Victoria quickly as well as reaching a new set of destinations to the south.

If you’re counting 2 from West Croydon via Crystal Palace you should surely count the 2 from Epsom Downs via Norbury as well

 

[WizCastro197]

If you’re counting 2 from West Croydon via Crystal Palace you should surely count the 2 from Epsom Downs via Norbury as well

Oh oops, apologies, forgot about them! So really 5 an hour (stopping that is).

 

[JonathanH]

No 3+5 or 4+5 formations will never be in the WTT, but you will see them on occasion if no units are available

Some interesting 3+5 formations on the Caterham line today - saw 377303+377603 on one of these today. No splitting at Purley on a Sunday, with separate Tattenham Corner shuttles running. Interesting to see a 4+3+3 again on a Victoria to London Bridge train as well. I guess with fewer services via Tulse Hill on a Sunday the 3-car units are available for other services.

 

[PGAT]

Also looks like all bar one London Bridge to East South Croydon services are running with 8 coaches

 

[GodAtum]

I live in Oxted and have the choice of the East Grinstead to/from Victoria, London Bridge to/From Uckfield or Thameslink. Southern-wise its a game of two halves.

The Victoria service is generally pretty good and has improved in reliability. I think the 377s are among the most comfortable commuter trains in the country as long as you avoid the 3+2 seats. The only annoying thing with Victoria is a few random gaps where the service is hourly during the week - some missing trains never put back from pre-covid.

The Uckfield service on 171s is much worse than it used to be. The frequency was cut post thameslink programme (removing the half hourly shuttle) and cut even further post covid and it has never recovered. There's a two hour gap in the evening between the 2107 and 2307 which is ridiculous. I feel sorry for the people living south of Hurst Green who rely on it as it is not uncommon for people to be stuck waiting at Oxted for two hours if there is a cancellation. They also made all the trains shorter so sometimes they can be extremely crowded in the peak, although they are pretty comfortable when you do manage to find a seat. I usually avoid them in favour of Thameslink during the peak as I'm guaranteed a seat.

I would have thought it'll be easy to gt a seat at Oxted as it's the start of the line?

 

[Surreytraveller]

I would have thought it'll be easy to gt a seat at Oxted as it's the start of the line?

With everyone clambering for the seats

 

[winks]

It was nice to see the GatEx coaches being used as Southern services from Clapham to Brighton the weekend.

A pleasant surprise calling at the old stopping pattern of CLJ, ECR, GTW, (HWH added) and Brighton.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

It was nice to see the GatEx coaches being used as Southern services from Clapham to Brighton the weekend.

A pleasant surprise calling at the old stopping pattern of CLJ, ECR, GTW, (HWH added) and Brighton.

I can imagine, summer Saturdays have been chaos at CLJ since the Brighton services left.

 

[winks]

It wasn’t overly busy either despite Thameslink taking out a number of services… I don’t believe the Cambridge service was running to Brighton but despite the reduction most of the carriages weren’t busy as per normal in the summer peak.

 

[JonathanH]

I can imagine, summer Saturdays have been chaos at CLJ since the Brighton services left.

In what sense has the removal of Brighton services caused chaos? The same number of trains run to East Croydon. Surely the need to change somewhere spreads out the Brighton loads amongst other services.