TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[winks]

Had this via email

Transport for London​ Day Travelcard - Mayoral Decision Thank you for your input into our recent engagement via our Have Your Say webpage on the potential impacts of our proposal to stop accepting Day Travelcards on our network. We are writing to you with an update. It is a requirement of our funding settlement with Government – a deal that was required solely because of the impact of the pandemic – for is to deliver considerable savings and generate significant amounts of new additional income. The Mayor has been clear that the withdrawal of Day Travelcards is not something he would be considering were it not for the requirements of the funding deal. The Mayor has now considered our proposal, and after careful consideration, including information you provided in response to the engagement exercise, an Equality Impact Assessment (EqIA) and requirements under our funding settlement with government, the Mayor has reluctantly instructed us to give the required minimum six months’ notice to withdraw from the relevant provisions of the Travelcard agreement. While this six-month process is now underway, it is important that we are clear this remains reversible and does not therefore mean that Day Travelcards will be withdrawn. We and the Mayor remain open to discussing all options with both the Department for Transport, the Rail Delivery Group and the train operating companies, but in a way which would allow us to continue to meet the requirements of the government funding agreement. The existing daily pay as you go caps on contactless or Oyster, which are used by the overwhelming majority of those travelling, will not be affected by this. We would like to reassure you that while these discussions take place Day Travelcards will remain available. We will be in touch when we have a further update.​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ © Transport for London. These are our email updates. If you no longer wish to receive these emails, you can unsubscribe​

 

[1D54]

I've been using these for many years and this news although expected is dreadful.

 

[Dave91131]

Apologies if the answer I'm looking for is buried in the detail somewhere (I've only time for a quick skim read at the minute);

I can see a lot of reference to "TfL withdrawing from the Travelcard agreement". Does this imply outboundary and inboundary Travelcards will still be available as per today, but will just not be valid on TfL services? Or will they cease to exist completely?

Thanks in advance for any clarification.

 

[reddragon]

Everyone seems to be blaming the Mayor when in reality the Government have given him no choice.

He is compelled to make specific savings and this includes the lost revenue of £40m from travelcards and it seems the RDG were not forthcoming on this hence we now have a stand off until a settlement happens. The Government will not help as they can use this to blame the Mayor & Labour party for something that they have actually created. Politics!

 

[JonathanH]

I can see a lot of reference to "TfL withdrawing from the Travelcard agreement". Does this imply outboundary and inboundary Travelcards will still be available as per today, but will just not be valid on TfL services? Or will they cease to exist completely?

Nothing suggests there would be a corresponding product valid just on non-TfL services but I don't think RDG have commented.

Such an offering would not be very useful to many people as the number of cross London links without TfL services is very limited, and there is no plan about removing capping on Oyster / Contactless which is the de facto replacement for Travelcard already in place.

The comment above makes it clear that:

The existing daily pay as you go caps on contactless or Oyster, which are used by the overwhelming majority of those travelling, will not be affected by this.

 

[Hadders]

Apologies if the answer I'm looking for is buried in the detail somewhere (I've only time for a quick skim read at the minute);

I can see a lot of reference to "TfL withdrawing from the Travelcard agreement". Does this imply outboundary and inboundary Travelcards will still be available as per today, but will just not be valid on TfL services? Or will they cease to exist completely?

Thanks in advance for any clarification.

TfL are withdrawing from Day Travelcards. 7 day and longer Travelcards will still exist.

In theory the TOCs could still offer Travelcards but they wouldn’t be valid on TfL services so they would be pretty useless.

The whole thing is politics. £40million is relatively small in the scheme of things and could probably be mitigated with some changes elsewhere. It’s all very well to say RDG should be more forthcoming but they’re under the dead hand on the DfT and can’t suddenly rustle up £40 million and more than TfL can.

It wouldn’t surprise me if there is a compromise before January.

 

[JonathanH]

Pretty much every major city I've been to in Europe and America has an integrated one-day Travelcard type product for use on trains / metro / buses / trams, it seems crazy that London will be doing away with it.

London will retain such an integrated offering via Oyster and Contactless capping.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The whole thing is politics. £40million is relatively small in the scheme of things and could probably be mitigated with some changes elsewhere. It’s all very well to say RDG should be more forthcoming but they’re under the dead hand on the DfT and can’t suddenly rustle up £40 million and more than TfL can.

They don't need to "rustle up" £40m. They'd just need to increase the fare so the cost came to the same as a return ticket to the boundary plus a full priced Travelcard, and pay TfL the cost of the full priced Travelcard minus the normal TOC share. This would mean TfL wasn't seeing the shortfall and the TOC income wouldn't change.

Many of them are priced like this anyway, but a lot seem to be priced such that the Travelcard component is nearly free, which is a bit of an anomaly and I don't think was ever the intention. People would still buy them for the convenience.

 

[MrJeeves]

I wonder if TfL would see this as an opportunity to withdraw all paper tickets? Would save TVM and gateline maintenance costs.

Bit tricky if they still do outboundary season travelcards. Do all London-bound TOCs do ITSO-fulfilled Travelcards?

It's almost as if Labour don't want the support of Londoners...

I don't think many Londoners would typically be buying paper day travelcards or outboundary travelcards?

 

[JonathanH]

It wouldn’t surprise me if there is a compromise before January.

I would be astounded if there is a compromise given the availability of capping on Oyster / Contactless, which the majority of people use already.

Outboundary users are a minor interest as far as this is concerned.

 

[12LDA28C]

London will retain such an integrated offering via Oyster and Contactless capping.

Is the cap not related to the cost of a one-day travelcard though? What's to prevent that cap being raised or removed entirely if the product to which it relates is no longer available?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the cap not related to the cost of a one-day travelcard though? What's to prevent that cap being raised or removed entirely if the product to which it relates is no longer available?

Most people wouldn't pay more anyway as most people make two Tube journeys after arriving in London (one to their destination and one back to the terminal), and thus don't hit (or even come near) the cap. It'd be disadvantageous to enthusiasts, but the railway is not run for enthusiasts and thus their niche needs do not need to be considered.

 

[Hadders]

I would be astounded if there is a compromise given the availability of capping on Oyster / Contactless, which the majority of people use already.

Outboundary users are a minor interest as far as this is concerned.

I disagree. Outboundary Travelcards are the default ticket to London from much of the south-east.

Phase 2 of Project Oval would mitigate this to an extent but that is at least a couple of years away.

 

[JonathanH]

Outboundary Travelcards are the default ticket to London from much of the south-east.

Yes. You are absolutely correct, but that fact does not make them sacrosanct.

Return tickets are the default for many journeys. It hasn't stopped LNER removing them on flows where advances weren't prevalent. Things move on.

 

[MrJeeves]

Outboundary Travelcards are the default ticket to London from much of the south-east.

Spot on. It's what everyone I know buys when they go for a trip to London by default, and it's what any staff will suggest as the first port of call.

 

[reddragon]

My premium for a travelcard is £3.70-£5.60 off peak and £6.70-£8 peak for an adult at the moment, and £0 for a child.

I'm sure that a bigger premium is favourable to us all for many reason!

 

[Deerfold]

I disagree. Outboundary Travelcards are the default ticket to London from much of the south-east.

But still a minority of travellers in London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Spot on. It's what everyone I know buys when they go for a trip to London by default, and it's what any staff will suggest as the first port of call.

And that's largely because of the convenience of it. Many people would be better off using contactless*. Which could well mean less revenue for TfL than they think, particularly if a significant number decide to convert not to the use of contactless but rather to taking an Uber.

* For myself, an Anytime Day Single to Euston, contactless for two Tube journeys and a Network Railcard discounted Anytime Day Single home is *significantly* cheaper than an Anytime Day Travelcard - well over a fiver cheaper - but I bet the vast majority of people just blindly buy the latter.

 

[MrJeeves]

And that's largely because of the convenience of it. Many people would be better off using contactless.

Not when travelcards from a significant portion of the South East are less than a single Zone 1 tube journey on top of a return.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not when travelcards from a significant portion of the South East are less than a single Zone 1 tube journey on top of a return.

Yes, as I stated I think they need to be repriced so they're the same as (relevant return to the boundary)+(1-6 Oyster/contactless cap). I suspect the way fares increases work on TfL vs. the railway has taken them away from that.

Were that done it'd close TfL's revenue gap while still allowing those who find these tickets convenient to use them. If it's partly about paper tickets, make them ITSO only.

On the other hand, if TfL have calculated that gap as every Travelcard user hitting the cap, I suspect they've got their numbers very wrong - the vast majority of people just make one return Tube journey on getting to London. Indeed for many users a return to U1 priced at (return to London Terminals)+(two Tube contactless singles) would be a perfectly good substitute.

 

[12LDA28C]

Most people wouldn't pay more anyway as most people make two Tube journeys after arriving in London (one to their destination and one back to the terminal), and thus don't hit (or even come near) the cap. It'd be disadvantageous to enthusiasts, but the railway is not run for enthusiasts and thus their niche needs do not need to be considered.

I'm not sure that's correct at all. Most people, especially families out for a day trip to London will most likely make several journeys on the tube and/or bus, travelling to various destinations. I know I certainly do, and that's nothing to do with being an enthusiast. If it was a straight out-and-back return journey to a single destination they'd just buy a return to Zone U1 if travelling to Central London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure that's correct at all. Most people, especially families out for a day trip to London will most likely make several journeys on the tube and/or bus, travelling to various destinations. If it was a straight out-and-back return journey to a single destination they'd just buy a return to Zone U1.

They wouldn't, because returns to U1 are generally priced as (return to London Terminals)+(2x paper Tube singles), and as such are overpriced. This is why I think TfL's calculations may be off.

 

[James H]

Outboundary users are a minor interest as far as this is concerned.

Sales figures are in the appendix to the equalities impact assessment.

You're looking at more than 7 million Day Travelcards a year issued by TOCs from stations outside the Zones.

 

[Haywain]

This announced the day after Labour failed to win a crucial by election in Uxbridge, partially down to Sadiq Kahn's record as mayor. It's almost as if Labour don't want the support of Londoners...

But the people affected by this decision are not, in the main, going to be voting in London's mayoral elections.

RDG were not forthcoming on this hence we now have a stand off until a settlement happens.

That's RDG who represent the train operators who can't agree to reduced revenue without government agreement.

 

[Deerfold]

Sales figures are in the appendix to the equalities impact assessment.

You're looking at more than 7 million Day Travelcards a year issued by TOCs from stations outside the Zones.

Which is slightly more than the number of tube journeys per day. Even with day travelcard users making 10 trips a day, they'd account for 2% of journeys.

 

[nickswift99]

I disagree. Outboundary Travelcards are the default ticket to London from much of the south-east.

Phase 2 of Project Oval would mitigate this to an extent but that is at least a couple of years away.

And lo and behold, the miracle* of Oval that will be announced as the saviour, having conveniently forgotten that 18 months before we had perfectly usable Day Travelcards. I can see the posters and TV adverts now.

* Miracles only available from certain stations, your luck may vary

 

[CyrusWuff]

RDG were not forthcoming on this hence we now have a stand off until a settlement happens.

TfL are claiming RDG were not forthcoming.

We only have their side of the story at the moment. It's entirely possible that RDG will turn round and go "TfL are talking rubbish."

 

[reddragon]

£40m over 7m tickets is £5.71 per ticket on average, noy a major issue.

Perhaps individual rail companies could do a deal in the absence of RDG action?

 

[mrmartin]

Reading twitter it seems not being able to add a (network) railcard to contactless is a real problem for people on the GWML west of paddington. It's quite a jump not having that, and the alternative with the elizabeth line is buying a normal return with NR discount, then at paddington going up the escalators, using the ticket to exit and then reentering with contactless/oyster which is a poor solution to get some saving.

 

[paul1609]

£40m over 7m tickets is £5.71 per ticket on average, noy a major issue.

Perhaps individual rail companies could do a deal in the absence of RDG action?

See post #684