Scotrail HST alternatives?

[Bletchleyite]

The 170's are horrific on a 2-3 hour jorney

They're really not. I've done the Highland Mainline on one, it was nicer than a 158 as it's less noisy.

They do have downsides (e.g. small luggage racks) but the biggest problem with Class 170 is that not nearly enough were built, twice as many would have been nice.

 

[Clansman]

The 156s are life expired and where are they coming from?

They are less life expired and much much cheaper to operate than the HST, which makes them the most economic solution to replacing the HSTs prior to 2030.

As per the post you quoted, they would come from within ScotRail once they are displaced from Barrhead and East Kilbride moving over to EMU operation within the next 2 years, as opposed to going off-lease or used for spares.

Remember, any fleet that replaces the HSTs before 2030 is not a permanent or long term solution. And it is not entirely clear if ScotRail plan to downsize the 156 fleet until 2030 as a stopgap, or if they are stilll binning them completely by 2025 in favour of 158s pooled from the rest of the network like what was originally planned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are less life expired

They're not. The HSTs have had recentish new engines to a modernish design, the 156s haven't.

 

[Clansman]

They're not. The HSTs have had recentish new engines to a modernish design, the 156s haven't.

Mechcanically, as they stand at the moment without further modifications that is a fair point. But economically, it's a different story.

And that is before considering if the 156 engines would last without mods versus the HSTs recent replacement, which they have done rather well thus far.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Pooling 158 from other fleets seems a really logical option, you could even have a semi-permanent intercity fleet of them in four or perhaps even six car formations for all of the long distance work and perhaps even a further light refurbishment

 

[Wyrleybart]

The 156s are life expired and where are they coming from?

I imagine penny numbers of 156s will be surplus when East Kilbride and Barrhead are turned on. The truth though must surely be that DfT have finally woken up to the fact that it costs someone a massive amount of cash to weld new steel into 30+ year old sprinters - qv the Northern "450" news and the Chiltern fleet replacements this week.

Even though the capital cost of buying new battery / electric rolling stock is huge, it perhaps presents the industry with a more realistic future. If you were to give 1565xx a siognificant body and bogies overhaul, whilst retaining it's Cummins powertrain, in the winter of 2023, when would expect to run it until, in order to recoup your "investment" in it ?

 

[cactustwirly]

They are less life expired and much much cheaper to operate than the HST, which makes them the most economic solution to replacing the HSTs prior to 2030.

As per the post you quoted, they would come from within ScotRail once they are displaced from Barrhead and East Kilbride moving over to EMU operation within the next 2 years, as opposed to going off-lease or used for spares.

Remember, any fleet that replaces the HSTs before 2030 is not a permanent or long term solution. And it is not entirely clear if ScotRail plan to downsize the 156 fleet until 2030 as a stopgap, or if they are stilll binning them completely by 2025 in favour of 158s pooled from the rest of the network like what was originally planned.

It defeats the point of replacing HSTs, the 156s require more investment in terms of corrosion repairs (which the HSTs got before going to Scotland) and the 156s aren't any better in terms of crash worthiness.

The recently withdrawn EMR 156s require significant repairs and I'd imagine the engines are pretty knackered too.

 

[HSTEd]

It defeats the point of replacing HSTs, the 156s require more investment in terms of corrosion repairs (which the HSTs got before going to Scotland) and the 156s aren't any better in terms of crash worthiness.

They are many years younger though.......

Given one of the main attack lines used about the HSTs on here, and elsewhere, is about how they were "designed during the Vietnam War", moving to trains that entered service in '88 has major advantages.

 

[Trainbike46]

They are many years younger though.......

Given one of the main attack lines used about the HSTs on here, and elsewhere, is about how they were "designed during the Vietnam War", moving to trains that entered service in '88 has major advantages.

I don't think the amount of complaints will reduce if you switch HSTs to 156s, and Scotrail isn't going to replace a fleet just because some people on this forum don't like them, so even if the point was to reduce complaints, replacing them with 156s would defeat the point

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given one of the main attack lines used about the HSTs on here, and elsewhere, is about how they were "designed during the Vietnam War", moving to trains that entered service in '88 has major advantages.

Given that they feel older due to the basic interior and lack of aircon I doubt that. People would hate them.

158s (in pairs) would be an acceptable replacement, ideally with the Inverness style (Grammer seated) interior. 156s really aren't.

 

[Clansman]

It isn't the 156s that ASLEF are kicking up a fuss about (yet!).

And proposing their use to replace the HSTs wouldn't be like for like, as you would use them to displace the 158s/170s on stopping runs on linear routes with lower running speeds and frequent stops. They wouldn't be hammering through Gleneagles or Monifieth on an IC working at 75mph, but would instead spend the day crawling around Fife and stopping every 5-10 minutes.

As long as ASLEF don't kick up a fuss, I would argue 156s would be on the table just as much - if not more - than any cascade, just for the economic and operational argument alone.

 

[hexagon789]

They are many years younger though.......

The oldest 156s are only five years younger than the most recently built HSTs...

 

[cactustwirly]

They are many years younger though.......

Given one of the main attack lines used about the HSTs on here, and elsewhere, is about how they were "designed during the Vietnam War", moving to trains that entered service in '88 has major advantages.

It's only a few years between the last HSTs and 1st 156s.
There isn't going to be any significant difference in crash worthiness, compared to a HST and 222

 

[HSTEd]

The oldest 156s are only two years younger than the most recently built HSTs...

Might be a Wikipedia thing, but they suggest HST production ended in 1982, and the 156s started construction in 1987.

 

[hexagon789]

Might be a Wikipedia thing, but they suggest HST production ended in 1982, and the 156s started construction in 1987.

Oh flip. I'm thinking Mk3 coaches. Botheration

Okay, 5 years!

 

[chuff chuff]

We did use the 156s on some of the Glasgow-Aberdeens if i remember correctly before the 158s arrived.

 

[12LDA28C]

I was under the impression it had already been decided what was planned to replace the Scotrail HSTs. Has the situation changed?

 

[Clansman]

I was under the impression it had already been decided what was planned to replace the Scotrail HSTs. Has the situation changed?

The HSTs are being replaced by new builds from 2030.

This thread proposes what should take their place as a stopgap until then, if ScotRail decide to bin them early (due to either ASLEF pressure on crashworthiness or any other operational reason such as reliability and cost.)

 

[Trainbike46]

I was under the impression it had already been decided what was planned to replace the Scotrail HSTs. Has the situation changed?

Discussion started again because of me bringing up this below interview with Alex Hynes, the managing director of Scotland's railway, which refers to talks with ASLEF, changes to the HST fleet, and them working on the plan for their replacement during the 2030-2035 period. I'd suggest watching the interview, the bit about the HSTs is pretty short, and the link should start at the section on HSTs.

Replying here as off-topic in original thread.

The suggestions for HST replacements in general are based on the fact that the unions (rightly) are rather unhappy about the safety of HSTs, as shown by the Carmont crash in particular. The HST replacement post-electrification is many years away, so suggestions have been made to replace them earlier, and the 222s are available soon, so have been floated as an option.

However, Alex Hynes stated on the railnatter podcast that the HSTs are currently being modified to improve their safety, and that they are planning their replacement for 2030/2035ish, so it sounds like the HSTs aren't, in fact, being replaced (source from 1:18:53:https://www.youtube.com/live/00sj14IF144?feature=share&t=4733 )

 

[hexagon789]

We did use the 156s on some of the Glasgow-Aberdeens if i remember correctly before the 158s arrived.

Correct, plus of course the Edinburgh - Glasgow shuttles. They required the pattern departure slot at Glasgow Queen Street on Aberdeen services to be pushed back 3 mins.

 

[12LDA28C]

The HSTs are being replaced by new builds from 2030.

This thread proposes what should take their place as a stopgap until then, if ScotRail decide to bin them early (due to either ASLEF pressure on crashworthiness or any other operational reason such as reliability and cost.)

Yes, I'm aware of that but I was under the impression that 222s were on their way to Scotland once displaced from MML duties, as hinted at previously by the owning ROSCO. I assume that may now not be the case.

 

[Clansman]

Yes, I'm aware of that but I was under the impression that 222s were on their way to Scotland once displaced from MML duties. Is this now not the case?

The 222s were never coming to Scotland. It was only ever speculation from enthusiasts in light of ASLEF's concerns over the HSTs, and this remains the case just now.

If circumstances arise which lead to ScotRail confirming their desire to withdraw the HSTs sooner than 2030, then never say never.

 

[12LDA28C]

The 222s were never coming to Scotland. It was only ever speculation from enthusiasts in light of ASLEF's concerns over the HSTs, and this remains the case just now.

This is not the case. Strong industry rumours at high level also suggested the 222s were heading north of the border.

 

[Clansman]

This is not the case. Strong industry rumours at high level also suggested the 222s were heading north of the border.

Rumours are just that. They do not change the fact that nothing concrete has been confirmed, nor can it change the fact that 222s were never planned to come to ScotRail.

Usually when rumours are true there is more coroboration from members on multiple social channels, rather than speculative discussion or idea proposals on an enthusiast group. I do look forward to waiting and seeing what comes of them though.

In the meantime, the 222s to ScotRail rumour is no more or less valid than the rumour from a Twitter user's contact that the Mk5s are being scrapped in December, or the rumour that 350s were coming to ScotRail just because somebody in a depot down south put Dundee on the front destination screen.

 

[hexagon789]

Rumours are just that. They do not change the fact that nothing concrete has been confirmed, nor can it change the fact that 222s were never planned to come to ScotRail.

Usually when rumours are true there is more coroboration from members on multiple social channels, rather than speculative discussion or idea proposals on an enthusiast group. I do look forward to waiting and seeing what comes of them though.

In the meantime, the 222s to ScotRail rumour is no more or less valid than the rumour from a Twitter user's contact that the Mk5s are being scrapped in December, or the rumour that 350s were coming to ScotRail just because somebody in a depot down south put Dundee on the front destination screen.

222s were at the very least an option being actively explored and considered.

The same cannot be said for Mk5s, nor by any means the 350s!

 

[12LDA28C]

222s were at the very least an option being actively explored and considered.

The same cannot be said for Mk5s, nor by any means the 350s!

Indeed. The MD from another TOC said as much, so rather more than just a rumour.

 

[Clansman]

Indeed. The MD from another TOC said as much, so rather more than just a rumour.

222s were at the very least an option being actively explored and considered.

I must have missed this, is there a link for the details or post? Certainly is interesting if an MD has alluded to it.

 

[hexagon789]

I must have missed this, is there a link for the details or post? Certainly is interesting if an MD has alluded to it.

The joint steering group formed to discuss the HST safety issues, their future, their eventual replacement and potential short term replacement.

This group includes individuals from ScotRail, Transport Scotland, the RMT, ASLEF, the ORR, Network Rail Scotland and Angel Trains.

It was stated by this group that 222s were one option under discussion.

I believe I also read of the 222 option in an article or column in either the June or July issue of Modern Railways.

 

[12LDA28C]

I must have missed this, is there a link for the details or post? Certainly is interesting if an MD has alluded to it.

It was mentioned during a conversation between the person concerned and myself.

 

[43096]

It was mentioned during a conversation between the person concerned and myself.

So just another version of the same rumour. The MD of another, not involved, TOC is not going to be party to any discussions.