Avanti platform staff bawling at passengers

[Horizon22]

KPIs for passenger injury?

How many claims are there for trips and slips on wet platforms and steps compared to being hit by a train?

There are regularly claims for slips, trips and falls against both NR and TOCs. By far the most common type of claim.

 

[185]

How many claims are there for trips and slips on wet platforms

In the last heatwave Crewe had Britain's first ever moving platform so probably quite a few.

Anyway, as a side to this, consider if people are up against the train preventing (by rule) the movement of the train at several stops. The compounded delay from those stops totals 10 minutes. A passenger's train arrives at a station further down the line, and their connection has sailed away, with a two hour wait for a 10pm train that isn't going to Plymouth - only Bristol... but whilst stood with 30 other passengers in a cold bus shelter somewhere in a field near Bloxwich they'd be safe in the knowledge the rude nasty staff didn't shout "will yer move back please".

 

[Horizon22]

Not necessarily. Some of us possess common sense and a self preservation faculty!

Good for you. Many don’t and station staff have to deal with the lowest common denominator as everyone needs to be safe, even those who unfortunately are acting outside their own interests.

It can be managed in numerous ways but if all else fails, an assertive loud voice can sharpen focus.

 

[uglymonkey]

Absolutely. The problem is many people don't and staff can't differentiate between two.
Ultimately its not very pleasant to be shouted at it can embararras some people. But if it creates a strong memorable response in someone they are much less likely to put themselves in that position again.

What happens if you are disabled? Deaf,blind or have Autism? Railways are threatening enough spaces,stress etc as it is without being shouted at - and possible freaking out and having a meltdown as a result.

 

[PupCuff]

Realistically, if you're five or six carriages back from the person who is too close to the edge, you're going to be reasonably limited with options. Blow your whistle, no movement, Hurried jabs on your whistle, no movement.

They're too far away to speak to at a normal volume so shouting ('projecting your voice'?) is basically the only option open unless you're lucky enough to have something like a roaming microphone.

What I would say is that adding a "please" or a "cheers" to the shouting makes it a little less hostile.

The suggestion of management bonuses for meeting KPIs on passenger injury resulting in disciplinaries against staff etc may have been something which happened in "the good old" (allegedly) BR days but it is not the case now.

 

[jfollows]

I’ll sum this up:

Management and Senior Management have KPI’s to achieve set by those even higher up within the company when it comes to accidents.

This results in unfair and unnecessary pressure on frontline staff. If KPI’s are achieved then management get a “bonus” so an obvious financial incentive, if they don’t hit targets it puts their job at risk as well as they moved on elsewhere or are forced out. It’s worth pointing out that frontline staff don’t get a penny from this bonus.

I don’t agree with some of the shouting, I’ve witnessed it, and it can be over the top but I understand why.

Now, let’s say someone does fall on the track and injures themselves, an accident form will be completed and a subsequent investigation completed by management. The first thing that will be looked at is CCTV, did the staff member make any interventions before the accident?

What if the passenger decides to make a claim or take the matter to court, despite it being their own fault of course. This poor frontline employee is now the subject of an investigation.

You can now see why, that even though I agree it’s unnecessary at times, that this shouting occurs.

I also agree with this, it saves me from posting something similar but less well written. When I encounter silly shouting I just reconcile myself to it with the thought that the staff are doing it because they've been told to by their management, and I also agree that sometimes it's necessary, just not as much as I've recently encountered it at Crewe and Paignton, and I try and avoid Piccadilly platforms 13 and 14 anyway.

 

[185]

The alternative to having staff shout could be a legislative one - perhaps a bylaw offence, punishable by a say £500 fine. This could be politely handed to people by BTP, PCSOs or a Rail Enforcement Officer. I can see some unhappy enthusiasts with "£500" photos of passing locos, but I'm sure it'd work in time.

**People miss the point that staff probably don't want to shout, but given the rules laid down by the government organisations ORR, RAIB etc - they have to, short of the silliness I suggest in paragraph #1. Which will probably happen anyway. Britain is doomed

 

[rg177]

There are regularly claims for slips, trips and falls against both NR and TOCs. By far the most common type of claim.

Indeed, the number of seemingly daft accident forms I've done on the off chance someone later claims after getting whacked by a gate or slipping on a wet floor is nuts.

Often with next to no detail as the person has simply got up, said they're fine and walked off.

 

[father_jack]

How does cost come into when they now use the battery operated hand held ‘whistles’.

And I believe it is personal choice for those people to continue using them rather than a traditional whistle.

No whistles of any description on GWR for example

 

[Dr Hoo]

Management and Senior Management have KPI’s to achieve set by those even higher up within the company when it comes to accidents.

This results in unfair and unnecessary pressure on frontline staff. If KPI’s are achieved then management get a “bonus” so an obvious financial incentive, if they don’t hit targets it puts their job at risk as well as they moved on elsewhere or are forced out. It’s worth pointing out that frontline staff don’t get a penny from this bonus.

Can you clarify which rail companies are operating this system? Is it part of the relatively novel 'fixed fee plus bonus opportunity' DfT-issued operating contracts?

The suggestion of management bonuses for meeting KPIs on passenger injury resulting in disciplinaries against staff etc may have been something which happened in "the good old" (allegedly) BR days but it is not the case now.

As a former BR Station Manager I can confirm that there were no bonuses on offer for that sort of thing. However, I can also confirm that plenty of shouting and whistling was undertaken by platform staff and myself when unwise behaviour was observed around stations.

 

[greyman42]

That dispatch may have had a tiny oversight, like a foot half way over the yellow line, or a lack of communication of keeping clear of the train, which has delayed the train , whatever, which has lead to a disciplinary for staff involved..

Are you saying that a staff member is going to be disciplined for someone having their foot half way over the line?

 

[Mattydo]

Personally I think this is symptomatic of a society that is bizarrely unwilling to challenge the establishment but constantly enjoys displaying acts of micro aggression in other settings. Aviation is the same; "could you put your bag in the overhead locker sir as you're sat in an emergency exit row" is often met with rudeness rather than an acceptance that a crew member is enforcing the law. Security agents seem surly because they are still, after 20 years, having to instruct people to take liquids out of their bags.

Similarly platform despatch staff covering a platform over 1/4km long have to exercise their lungs because a passenger seems averse to standing in the ample space away from the PTI whilst awaiting a reservation service to London. Witnessed yesterday. I politely pointed out that the platform staff were calling them (politely I might add too) to stand back and an otherwise civilised man and his wife in their 40's decided to rudely say that they'll "stand wherever they want" despite them being surrounded by plenty of space. It's a sense of entitlement unique to the British.

Ultimately these customer facing staff are not there providing a customer service in the traditional sense. They are there to enforce rules related to safety that exist due to past incidents, I'm sure they'd all rather let Darwin's law take it's course but we live in a litigious society now.

If the British public could just bring themselves to be less passive aggressive as a collective and stop feeling the need to push the rules at any opportunity for no reason whatsoever (what is the bloody obsession with standing on the edge of platforms anyway?) staff perhaps wouldn't have to act in a way that might seem surly.

That said, there definitely is a problem with some staff on the railway in almost purely customer service roles (hosts, ticket vendors, gateline etc.) who have their own sense of entitlement to deal with.

If both groups could perhaps direct whatever internal demons lead them to this 'need to rebel' towards the government instead, we might all benefit.

 

[Rover77]

Are you saying that a staff member is going to be disciplined for someone having their foot half way over the line?

Personally I think this is symptomatic of a society that is bizarrely unwilling to challenge the establishment but constantly enjoys displaying acts of micro aggression in other settings. Aviation is the same; "could you put your bag in the overhead locker sir as you're sat in an emergency exit row" is often met with rudeness rather than an acceptance that a crew member is enforcing the law. Security agents seem surly because they are still, after 20 years, having to instruct people to take liquids out of their bags.

Similarly platform despatch staff covering a platform over 1/4km long have to exercise their lungs because a passenger seems adverse to standing in the ample space away from the PTI whilst awaiting a reservation service to London. Witnessed yesterday. I politely pointed out that the platform staff were calling them (politely I might add too) to stand back and an otherwise civilised man and his wife in their 40's decided to rudely say that they'll "stand wherever they want" despite them being surrounded by plenty of space. It's a sense of entitlement unique to the British.

Ultimately these customer facing staff are not there providing a customer service in the traditional sense. They are there to enforce rules related to safety that exist due to past incidents, I'm sure they'd all rather let Darwin's law take it's course but we live in a litigious society now.

If the British public could just bring themselves to be less passive aggressive as a collective and stop feeling the need to push the rules at any opportunity for no reason whatsoever (what is the bloody obsession with standing on the edge of platforms anyway?) staff perhaps wouldn't have to act in a way that might seem surly.

That said, there definitely is a problem with some staff on the railway in almost purely customer service roles (hosts, ticket vendors, gateline etc.) who have their own sense of entitlement to deal with.

If both groups could perhaps direct whatever internal demons lead them to this 'need to rebel' towards the government instead, we might all benefit.

This sums up my experience perfectly as a platform dispatcher and as a TM dispatching.

 

[Undiscovered]

Are you saying that a staff member is going to be disciplined for someone having their foot half way over the line?

Yep.
Technically, the dispatch corridor isn't clear, therefore it isn't safe to dispatch. The railway deals in absolutes when it comes to this.

You might think it's ridiculous, but personally, if I can't clear that dispatch corridor, we don't go anywhere.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There's something about London gatelines. I'd say south of London is worst, they can barely grunt at you half the time. It's like they just went to London Buses for recruitment. (London bus drivers often similarly only grunt at you, in some cases because they were former Routemaster drivers who never had to talk to anyone anyway).

The LNR staff on 8-11 at Euston are always professional, though.

Given the choice between "abrupt or rude but attentive" or "dossing about chatting amongst themselves and watching things on a smartphone while a queue builds up at the bottom of the stairs" (Wakefield Westgate again) I know which I'd choose.

 

[Hadders]

Pre-pandemic St Pancras Low Level platforms had a red line in addition to the yellow line. Plenty of loud, shouty staff telling people to move behind the red line as the train approached.

Thankfully the red line, along with the bulk of the shouting has gone.

Incidentally, is there a reason why the yellow lines on the generally narrower and busier platforms of the London Underground are much nearer to the platform edge than on National Rail platforms? My casual observation is that the yellow line om National Rail platforms are further back from the platfirm edge than they were a few years ago.

 

[bramling]

Pre-pandemic St Pancras Low Level platforms had a red line in addition to the yellow line. Plenty of loud, shouty staff telling people to move behind the red line as the train approached.

Thankfully the red line, along with the bulk of the shouting has gone.

Incidentally, is there a reason why the yellow lines on the generally narrower and busier platforms of the London Underground are much nearer to the platform edge than on National Rail platforms? My casual observation is that the yellow line om National Rail platforms are further back from the platfirm edge than they were a few years ago.

LU didn’t want their lines too far away as they didn’t want to create a space where people would be tempted to use it as a walking route.

 

[Undiscovered]

Pre-pandemic St Pancras Low Level platforms had a red line in addition to the yellow line. Plenty of loud, shouty staff telling people to move behind the red line as the train approached.

Thankfully the red line, along with the bulk of the shouting has gone.

Incidentally, is there a reason why the yellow lines on the generally narrower and busier platforms of the London Underground are much nearer to the platform edge than on National Rail platforms? My casual observation is that the yellow line om National Rail platforms are further back from the platfirm edge than they were a few years ago.

I would guess that the yellow lines are closer on Underground as all trains will stop at the station.
On NR lines, you can have trains barreling through at linespeed, so more space is required to allow for the turbulence and slipstream created.

 

[Purple Train]

It's not the shouting that bothers me per se, it's the shouting when no one is near the line and/or a train is neither due nor coming. That is a less urgent situation for which a less urgent reminder should suffice. And I am always slightly annoyed when staff scream "stand back" and then proceed to stand dangerously close to the white line themselves while appearing to be distracted - while there could well be an innocent explanation, it isn't a good look as far as J. Public is concerned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would make a lot of sense to do a study on how people respond to shouting, hatching, clear announcements with a dedicated tone etc, and adopt the most effective. I would place a significant bet that the most effective isn't shouting, but rather hatching marks on the platform and a clear, standardised earworm announcement just before the whistle goes.

 

[WizCastro197]

Gatwick Airport is also quite prone to this issue with the never ending shouting at passengers. Combined with the overall dark and damp feel of the station, it’s never a nice place to be. Maybe it’s not so much the shouting that gets me, perhaps it’s the hypocrisy: passengers aren’t allowed one toe over the line but it’s well okay for a member of platform staff to walk backwards whilst a train is passing them?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I would place a significant bet that the most effective isn't shouting

Definitely. My experience from living in London is that the despatch staff who are humourous and lively get a good reaction and get what they need. And the ones who shout and yell and have a face like a slapped bottom don’t.

It’s a thankless job and I don’t envy them, but generally people will reflect back what they hear. So someone being yelled at for being an inch over an arbitrary line is going to react in kind.

 

[ainsworth74]

See this thread for discussion about boarding trains before they're advertised.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I've seen this at Clapham Junction a lot over the years. If a train has shut its doors, and a passenger jerks towards the train as if they're going to try and prize the door apart to get on, they'd be met with a bellowing STAND AWAAAAY! Much to their obvious discomfort.

 

[Howardh]

What's the point of bawling when most passengers are in their own little world due to bluetooth headphones? I use them to block out unwanted noise, announcements, other passenger's conversations and noisy airconditioning. They are called "noise-cancelling" for a reason!

 

[12LDA28C]

What's the point of bawling when most passengers are in their own little world due to bluetooth headphones? I use them to block out unwanted noise, announcements, other passenger's conversations and noisy airconditioning. They are called "noise-cancelling" for a reason!

And this is why people don't hear important on-train announcements regarding delays, disruption, changes to stopping patterns and so on. Total lack of awareness.

 

[Howardh]

And this is why people don't hear important on-train announcements regarding delays, disruption, changes to stopping patterns and so on. Total lack of awareness.

Agree, but this has been done to death on another thread, but if we weren't plastered with useless announcements we might actually be alert to important ones! All the TOC's are doing with their constant bombardment is forcing pax to avoid them by any means.

 

[HarryF]

Agree, but this has been done to death on another thread, but if we weren't plastered with useless announcements we might actually be alert to important ones! All the TOC's are doing with their constant bombardment is forcing pax to avoid them by any means.

Agreed - I don’t think we need to be told to not smoke in the toilets with no smoking signs everywhere, or to put luggage in the racks, or that there’s a trolley, or penalty fares apply, or that the Pope may be Catholic

On a more positive note, I heard GWR’s platform staff at Swindon saying “Stand back please” earlier. Much politer and in my view more likely to get people to comply.

 

[12LDA28C]

Agree, but this has been done to death on another thread, but if we weren't plastered with useless announcements we might actually be alert to important ones! All the TOC's are doing with their constant bombardment is forcing pax to avoid them by any means.

Hardly 'constant bombardment' at least on my local operator, maybe your experience is different but anyway getting off topic here.

Agreed - I don’t think we need to be told to not smoke in the toilets with no smoking signs everywhere, or to put luggage in the racks, or that there’s a trolley, or penalty fares apply, or that the Pope may be Catholic

You might think so and yet people still smoke in the toilets, leave their luggage on the seat next to them and try to evade paying the fare.

 

[Titfield]

Have heard "shouting" on Swanage Railway as members of the general public approach a train which is just setting off (which as it is steam tends to be quite a slow away) or when passengers open the doors (or at least slide down the window and lean out to operate the door handle) as the train approaches the station.