TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[Spartacus]

Every 5th carriage was Built with a Driving cab so the driver just changes ends and the sets run Push/Pull
It is only a small section of the coach that is used for the cab - like an Emu.

IMG 4813 | Peter's Rail Pictures

IMG 4813 - IMG_4813.JPG

peter749.piwigo.com

Unlike the Chiltern sets that have a Full DVT at one end that is just for the Drivers cab at one end and a Guards area at the other.

82304 DVT - IMG 3408 | Peter's Rail Pictures

Marylebone - DVT 82304 IMG_3408.JPG

peter749.piwigo.com

One reason I think they'd be a good fit for the TfW services, and enable more to run at a decent length too.

 

[Peter749]

One reason I think they'd be a good fit for the TfW services, and enable more to run at a decent length too.

TfW have purchased the Mk4 stock and have enough vehicles to make all the sets 5 coaches + a DVT.
And they have a Restaurant Car selling hot food - something the Mk5 sets don't have - just a trolley service.

 

[sjpowermac]

One reason I think they'd be a good fit for the TfW services, and enable more to run at a decent length too.

I think they would be a great fit for TPE on the Scarborough and Hull routes, binning off some of the old 3-car DMUs.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think they would be a great fit for TPE on the Scarborough and Hull routes, binning off some of the old 3-car DMUs.

That is too logical .

 

[43102EMR]

TfW have purchased the Mk4 stock and have enough vehicles to make all the sets 5 coaches + a DVT.
And they have a Restaurant Car selling hot food - something the Mk5 sets don't have - just a trolley service.

I mean the 197s don’t, yet they’re running alongside the Mk4s. To me makes more sense to move the 197s away from the North-South Expresses in favour of the Mk5s and focus them more on the local services across Wales.

 

[Spartacus]

TfW have purchased the Mk4 stock and have enough vehicles to make all the sets 5 coaches + a DVT.
And they have a Restaurant Car selling hot food - something the Mk5 sets don't have - just a trolley service.

I didn't realise they were purchased rather than leased, and when I've used them there's only been very basic 'snacks', i.e. crisps & sweets available from the buffet, which is worse than a trolley really. Maybe a weekend thing, but still not great for a near 5 hour journey from Swansea to Manchester.

The trouble with extending the Mk4s to 5+DVT is that as even with a 4 car train there's a number of platforms where you can't board or alight from one of them extending to 5 would make it worse.

I mean the 197s don’t, yet they’re running alongside the Mk4s. To me makes more sense to move the 197s away from the North-South Expresses in favour of the Mk5s and focus them more on the local services across Wales.

Well, with the current state of affairs you could well end up with a pair of 153s or 150. I still think there's room for the Mk5s.

I just wish they'd stay on the same diagrams at the moment, it doesn't help forward planning!

 

[Peter Sarf]

So does anyone know how many TPE Mk5 sets are out in service today ?.

And how likely is it the number in service will decline long before the December timetable change ?.

 

[87electric]

So does anyone know how many TPE Mk5 sets are out in service today ?.

And how likely is it the number in service will decline long before the December timetable change ?.

3 sets out today.

 

[BoroAndy]

3 sets out today.

If its not a stupid question.....
Why are TPE pulling them?
The reliability seems to have improved, the training must be done or near done by now, Scarborough TMD is designed for them, and compared to the 185s they are a nice quiet ride.
If they are fully replaced by 185s complaints could start up again about overcrowding and noisey journeys....So much for OLR operations.
Also, will Scarborough TMD have a role for 185 minor maintenance?

 

[L+Y]

Rumours elsewhere suggest a possibility of GWR taking on the sets.

Would seem to be not altogether a stupid option, especially if the 68s (or alternative bi-mode locos?) can also be used on the sleeper.

 

[D6975]

It's not TPE pulling them, it's the DFTs bean counters.

ps And I'd love them to come to the west to do the Cardiff-Penzance route. Many S&S rovers.

 

[JonathanH]

If its not a stupid question.....
Why are TPE pulling them?

It simplifies the TPE operation.

The lease expires soon, and they feel they can provide the agreed level of service from December 2023 without them.

The whole point of taking TPE into an OLR operation is to stabilise the TPE offering after the problems it has faced over the last few years, and that involves making decisions about how it is going to operate going forwards.

 

[nw1]

I really think the current money saving either says a lot about the governments approach to the railways or just as likely how strapped for cash the UK is.

One or the other is a practical certainty, I think.

 

[800001]

Rumours elsewhere suggest a possibility of GWR taking on the sets.

Would seem to be not altogether a stupid option, especially if the 68s (or alternative bi-mode locos?) can also be used on the sleeper.

I can hear the complaints in Gwr land already about the noisey locos travelling through the Cornish valleys.

I had heard rumours (before Tpe announced they were withdrawing) that DRS wanted the 68s back for their own use?

 

[EZJ]

I had heard rumours (before Tpe announced they were withdrawing) that DRS wanted the 68s back for their own use?

Indeed, I would expect that DRS will take the locos back and the coaches will be quietly left to rot in a sidings somewhere never to be spoken of again.

 

[800001]

Indeed, I would expect that DRS will take the locos back and the coaches will be quietly left to rot in a sidings somewhere never to be spoken of again.

Now I wonder how many 67s DB could get working again!? And would they be compatible with mk5s?

 

[EZJ]

Now I wonder how many 67s DB could get working again!? And would they be compatible with mk5s?

The software on the converted 68's is very specific to work between the 68 and the coaches and that was challenging enough and still presents problems now, it wouldn't be impossible to do but I doubt anyone would want the hassle after all the problems that TPE had.

 

[59CosG95]

The software on the converted 68's is very specific to work between the 68 and the coaches and that was challenging enough and still presents problems now, it wouldn't be impossible to do but I doubt anyone would want the hassle after all the problems that TPE had.

Plus the 67s are getting long in the tooth now, all things considered, and are very thirsty at top speeds.

 

[3RDGEN]

If its not a stupid question.....
Why are TPE pulling them?
The reliability seems to have improved, the training must be done or near done by now, Scarborough TMD is designed for them, and compared to the 185s they are a nice quiet ride.
If they are fully replaced by 185s complaints could start up again about overcrowding and noisey journeys....So much for OLR operations.
Also, will Scarborough TMD have a role for 185 minor maintenance?

When first planned the MkV's were going to run the Scarborough and some Saltburn services to allow this it required overnight servicing facilities in Scarborough and York. Scarborough got built but due to the noise issues of the 68's the locals complained and TPE had to agree to stop using the site at night. York never got built.

"https://www.thescarboroughnews.co.u...victory-as-rail-operator-scraps-depot-3365213"

"TransPennine Express agrees to scrap overnight train storage in Scarborough after residents win noise battle​

A rail operator has said it will no longer keep trains overnight at a new £7 million depot in Scarborough after local residents complained that the noise was making their lives a misery."

As such there is no overnight servicing facility in the east so you can't diagram the sets properly, the five diagrams they have require three of the sets to go on to the Scarborough site during the day, when they should be in service, so those diagrams are a waste. One only starts at 17:30 in the evening for return runs to Leeds and York, a total of 225 miles for the day.

Running to Cleethorpes/Hull would have caused similar issues so the only site you can use at night is Manchester Longsight which can't do all the sets. Hence the MkV's are a pain for TPE with the extra training requirements and the rest of the issues so with the planned service cuts the sets can be removed and costs cut at the same time.

Not sure but I don't believe 185's use the Scarborough site for servicing at present but that may change from December?

 

[greyman42]

The reliability seems to have improved, the training must be done or near done by now, Scarborough TMD is designed for them, and compared to the 185s they are a nice quiet ride.

185s are hardly noisy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

185s are hardly noisy.

185s are all in all pretty good, just too short. I'd take a double 185 over any of the new kit.

 

[pennine]

185s are hardly noisy.

I agree!

However, some residents in Saltburn say otherwise https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/local-news/yorkshire-seaside-town-residents-wake-26299033

 

[800001]

I agree!

However, some residents in Saltburn say otherwise https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/local-news/yorkshire-seaside-town-residents-wake-26299033

Every time I’m at Saltburn, as soon as a TPE arrives the engines are shut down, and started up again minutes before departure.
I would say when they are in station they are no noisier than a 156/158, in fact the noise from cars on the adjacent streets seemed noisier.

 

[CAF397]

Every time I’m at Saltburn, as soon as a TPE arrives the engines are shut down, and started up again minutes before departure.
I would say when they are in station they are no noisier than a 156/158, in fact the noise from cars on the adjacent streets seemed noisier.

They leak air though - the oldest ones are around 17 years old. When I last drove one you couldn't leave the engines off for longer than 10-15 minutes before the air pressure dropped to a critical level where you got brake faults. Leaving one engine running just to keep the compressor ticking over is often needed.

 

[Richard Scott]

185s are all in all pretty good, just too short. I'd take a double 185 over any of the new kit.

I wouldn't want to pay the fuel bill for that!

 

[LondonerTravel]

I wonder if Chiltern would consider taking the MK5 on? They operate some locomotive hauled services already, and gives some flexibility to the fleet.

 

[BoroAndy]

I wonder if Chiltern would consider taking the MK5 on? They operate some locomotive hauled services already, and gives some flexibility to the fleet.

"Flexibility", as in the TPE fleet, but being got rid of?
As regards noise of 185s, I was referring to the internal noise to passengers with engines under the carriages, now we have moved onto loco hauled, being much quieter.

 

[KevL]

I agree with you Andy. And from your handle i suspect you live in Scarbro, like i do and use them. 3 car 185s are too short for the service and engines noisy enough that they affect any work conversations on the phone. I love the N3 for thus aspect. It will feel like going backwards.

 

[sjpowermac]

When first planned the MkV's were going to run the Scarborough and some Saltburn services to allow this it required overnight servicing facilities in Scarborough and York. Scarborough got built but due to the noise issues of the 68's the locals complained and TPE had to agree to stop using the site at night. York never got built.

"https://www.thescarboroughnews.co.u...victory-as-rail-operator-scraps-depot-3365213"

"TransPennine Express agrees to scrap overnight train storage in Scarborough after residents win noise battle​

A rail operator has said it will no longer keep trains overnight at a new £7 million depot in Scarborough after local residents complained that the noise was making their lives a misery."

As such there is no overnight servicing facility in the east so you can't diagram the sets properly, the five diagrams they have require three of the sets to go on to the Scarborough site during the day, when they should be in service, so those diagrams are a waste. One only starts at 17:30 in the evening for return runs to Leeds and York, a total of 225 miles for the day.

Running to Cleethorpes/Hull would have caused similar issues so the only site you can use at night is Manchester Longsight which can't do all the sets. Hence the MkV's are a pain for TPE with the extra training requirements and the rest of the issues so with the planned service cuts the sets can be removed and costs cut at the same time.

Not sure but I don't believe 185's use the Scarborough site for servicing at present but that may change from December?

The sets spending most of the day on Scarborough TMD is a choice TPE have made from the May 2023 timetable.

In the December 2022 timetable, Scarborough TMD was utilised as follows:

Set A
Arrives 1915
Set B
Arrives 2210

Next day

Set B
Departs 0825
Set A
Departs 0930

Regarding Cleethorpes, I’m not aware of any complaints being received from anyone involved with the industrial units surrounding Doncaster Europort.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Would the diagramming experts on here please be able to suggest a way I could get all four Mk 5 diagrams on a given day if I start from King's Cross on the 09.30? Guessing this would involve a bit of back and forth at some point between York and Scarborough?

...and which are the two sets that are already stood down because of the need for repairs? Do we know which are the three others that are being monitored closely?