Railway Worker Sacked for Drinking 'Herbal Tea'

[FartinLewis]

Came across this article earlier, I wonder if the defendant genuinely did not know that there was a nefarious substance in the consumed beverage should they really be liable? Coca tea is from what I gather a niche product and I can see it ending up in a bag of leaves bought at a market stall, it's not something you would procure from your local dealer. Or is he just trying to pull the wool over the investigators eyes!

A Network Rail safety worker failed a drug test at work after mistakenly buying tea from a market stall made with leaves from the cocaine plant.

Paul Glenholmes bought “Inka Tea” from a market stall in September 2020 to help with digestive problems caused by his disability medication - but subsequently failed a drug test at work as he was four times over the cut-off amount for misuse of a controlled substance.

“There were no other contributing factors to his dismissal other than the failed drug test which he could have avoided if he had done the research he did after the failed drug test either before he drank the tea or shortly thereafter once he was aware of its efficacy. But he chose not to.”

Telegraph article:

Network Rail safety worker fails drug test after drinking tea made from coca leaves

Paul Glenholmes was sacked after consuming herbal drink he bought at a market, but employment judge rules rules he was 'entirely to blame'

www.telegraph.co.uk

Edited to add quotes for context

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The clue is in the name.

In the past people have failed a drugs test after having eaten poppy seed rolls

 

[deltic]

While there appear to be UK websites selling Coca tea they also note that it is illegal to import it into the country. Surprised if it is being sold on bona fide market stalls.

 

[james_the_xv]

I wonder if the defendant genuinely did not know that there was a nefarious substance in the consumed beverage should they really be liable?

If they have ingested a drug that is deemed to inhibit judgement (in whatever quantity, via whichever means) then yes. It is the individuals' responsibility to ensure they are fit for work and abide by the Drugs & Alcohol policy. It's unfortunate, but a watertight D&A policy is far better than one with opportunity for someone to potentially abuse.

 

[ComUtoR]

He was NOT sacked due to consuming herbal tea.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

He was NOT sacked due to consuming herbal tea.

What are we missing? Is the 'Daily Telegraph' write-up quoted upthread in some way incorrect or misleading?

 

[AlterEgo]

I’m not sure how believable the worker’s story is. Four times the limit from tea?

 

[yorksrob]

The clue is in the name.

In the past people have failed a drugs test after having eaten poppy seed rolls

I hope they weren't dismissed for it !!

 

[Lemmy99uk]

I hope they weren't dismissed for it !!

Some people have been dismissed.

I personally tested positive some years ago after scoffing a lot of home made cake containing blue poppy seeds the day before a medical. I was very close to losing my job and I think I only kept it thanks to a passionate defender by my line manager.

 

[yorksrob]

Some people have been dismissed.

I personally tested positive some years ago after scoffing a lot of home made cake containing blue poppy seeds the day before a medical. I was very close to losing my job and I think I only kept it thanks to a passionate defender by my line manager.

Goodness. It says something when you can get the sack for consuming a bread roll

 

[Oxfordblues]

I remember the "Top House" pub in Butler Street, Preston where traincrews would drink before driving the Down Special TPO and the Royal Highlander sleeper. We mere station staff drank in the "Bottom House" before starting our night-shifts. That was the mid-1970s. Happy days!

 

[FartinLewis]

Some people have been dismissed.

I personally tested positive some years ago after scoffing a lot of home made cake containing blue poppy seeds the day before a medical. I was very close to losing my job and I think I only kept it thanks to a passionate defender by my line manager.

That's very lucky, and unfortunate that others may find themselves in such a predicament

 

[Sheffcaster202]

I’m not sure how believable the worker’s story is. Four times the limit from tea?

I’d imagine the prescribed limit is substantially lower than the one for driving, network rail safety publication doesn’t set out exact figures for drugs but has one for alcohol pictures below.

If the limit is lower than the one for driving I’d assume he can be more times over?

Road traffic laws at 35 micrograms in 100ml of breath whereas the railway standard is 13ml so in theory you could be almost 3 times the railway limit for work but able to hop in your car on the way home from being tested and most likely benched until disciplinary!

No defence of staff member here, just an observation.

Source

 

[Vespa]

I have drunk coca leaves infused in hot water in Peru, it's quite common as it helps to relieve altitude sickness in the Andean mountains, I've never felt high nor is it addictive, I didn't drink it every day as I forced my body to get used to the thin atmosphere.

Yet the leaves is a source of processed cocaine which will show up in urine samples and that's where the problem lies as coca leaves is illegal in the UK, it shouldn't have been sold in the UK.

 

[contrex]

I remember the "Top House" pub in Butler Street, Preston where traincrews would drink before driving the Down Special TPO and the Royal Highlander sleeper. We mere station staff drank in the "Bottom House" before starting our night-shifts. That was the mid-1970s. Happy days!

But not at Eltham, or Deal?

 

[ComUtoR]

What are we missing? Is the 'Daily Telegraph' write-up quoted upthread in some way incorrect or misleading?

It's very misleading.

They were sacked for testing positive for a banned substance. The rest of the story is doing all the heavy lifting.

I know a fair number of people sacked for failing drug testing. The results are scrutinised and there is a very big difference for 'Testing Positive' and testing positive. One result I know of, has the investigators looking at the 'half life' to help determine the potential reasons why a positive result came back.

If you look at the results. There are different levels that will highlight the most likely usage.

The person I know who tested positive for 'poppy seeds' had such a miniscule amount that it was put down to the bagel they reportedly ate and the sensitivity of the test.

Drug testing is never just 'result/sacking' the investigation that follows will determine the outcome.

 

[bramling]

I hope they weren't dismissed for it !!

I know someone who had a job offer withdrawn, which was as a result of failing a D&A test due to having consumed poppy seeds. Not only that but he had to go through some hoops to keep the job he was in at the time. The whole thing was pretty unfair really, but even after it was found to be poppy seeds the new employer would not reinstate the offer.

 

[Egg Centric]

I’d imagine the prescribed limit is substantially lower than the one for driving, network rail safety publication doesn’t set out exact figures for drugs but has one for alcohol pictures below.

If the limit is lower than the one for driving I’d assume he can be more times over?

Road traffic laws at 35 micrograms in 100ml of breath whereas the railway standard is 13ml so in theory you could be almost 3 times the railway limit for work but able to hop in your car on the way home from being tested and most likely benched until disciplinary!

No defence of staff member here, just an observation.

Source

Unlikely - the drug drive (as in car) limit levels are set at zero tolerance rather than impairment levels (hence if you have a legitimate prescription including cannabis they don't apply*). So while I'm unsure I would suspect that the cocaine limits for both are very similar.

*and in 2023 the end result of this is that there are now more drug driving prosecutions than drink driving prosecutions and there's little incentive for someone who takes cannabis to avoid drug driving as they may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, but that is a digression and not the same as drug limits for safety critical roles

 

[yorksrob]

I know someone who had a job offer withdrawn, which was as a result of failing a D&A test due to having consumed poppy seeds. Not only that but he had to go through some hoops to keep the job he was in at the time. The whole thing was pretty unfair really, but even after it was found to be poppy seeds the new employer would not reinstate the offer.

I shall certainly be wary of such bread rolls in the future !

 

[Tetchytyke]

I shall certainly be wary of such bread rolls in the future !

Definitely. There was a notable case a few years ago where someone from Switzerland was detained in Dubai for trafficking drugs. They had a couple of poppy seeds in their jumper having eaten a sandwich at Heathrow.

Mad, but there we go. Always the problem with strict liability zero tolerance. People subject to such rules really must do their research on everything they eat or drink.

 

[Deafdoggie]

First sacked a bus driver for failing a drug test, even though he'd never taken any drugs! He was on a university student bus route and the cocaine off their bank notes rubbed onto his fingers which he'd put into his mouth and gave a positive result.

 

[thejuggler]

I could have written a similar story about someone I once knew who failed a drug test and was sacked.

She had her excuse lined up, similar lines to the story, it was a one off and she wasn't aware etc etc. Unfortunately there is a way of proving it wasn't a one off - a hair sample test - and it showed she was an habitual user of banned substances.

 

[AndrewE]

The poppy-seed problem affected me too. I was called one morning for a random test (being in a safety-critical job) and a while later was asked if I could explain why I had tested positive for heroin (or whatever the substance was, opiates?) Anyway I remembered reading about false positives from poppy seeds and was able to explain that we often had rolls bought as mixed packets of part-baked, and 2 out of the 6 had loads of poppy seeds all over the top! I don't know what would have happened if I hadn't known how to answer.

In a way I'm not surprised that coca tea has found its way into the country, or that it had unexpected consequences. I don't think you can expect a non-technical person to investigate every component in a "traditional medicine" in case one part is linked to banned drugs or can be mistaken for them.

Don't forget that coca-cola actually had cocaine in it for a long time. It's just caffeine now...

 

[mpthomson]

Unlikely - the drug drive (as in car) limit levels are set at zero tolerance rather than impairment levels (hence if you have a legitimate prescription including cannabis they don't apply*). So while I'm unsure I would suspect that the cocaine limits for both are very similar.

*and in 2023 the end result of this is that there are now more drug driving prosecutions than drink driving prosecutions and there's little incentive for someone who takes cannabis to avoid drug driving as they may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, but that is a digression and not the same as drug limits for safety critical roles

My bold, this isn't correct. There are blood levels that have to be reached before prosecution.

 

[baz962]

I shall certainly be wary of such bread rolls in the future !

I don't know if some people ( testers) use different common sense from others. I don't usually eat anything with poppy seeds . my wife had bought some different bread to usual with poppy seeds and with a dose of bad luck , literally the day before my first ever railway medical.
I hadn't heard about poppy seeds giving a false positive until after eating it.
At my medical I told the doctor and he said that you would have had to eaten a huge amount to get a positive test.
I passed the test without popping ( pun intended) a positive test result.

 

[snookertam]

It's very misleading.

They were sacked for testing positive for a banned substance. The rest of the story is doing all the heavy lifting.

I know a fair number of people sacked for failing drug testing. The results are scrutinised and there is a very big difference for 'Testing Positive' and testing positive. One result I know of, has the investigators looking at the 'half life' to help determine the potential reasons why a positive result came back.

If you look at the results. There are different levels that will highlight the most likely usage.

The person I know who tested positive for 'poppy seeds' had such a miniscule amount that it was put down to the bagel they reportedly ate and the sensitivity of the test.

Drug testing is never just 'result/sacking' the investigation that follows will determine the outcome.

Before drug and alcohol testing you now declare whether you may have eaten a poppy seeded or even just seeded bread products, in case it produces a positive result.

 

[Vespa]

Before drug and alcohol testing you now declare whether you may have eaten a poppy seeded or even just seeded bread products, in case it produces a positive result.

That's an improvement, how long does it take for it to filter out of your system before you can take a medical ?

 

[Geoff DC]

Poppy seeds are regularly used in Curry, I often fry a couple of teaspoons along with Cumin seeds when starting the sauce.

 

[43066]

I know someone who had a job offer withdrawn, which was as a result of failing a D&A test due to having consumed poppy seeds. Not only that but he had to go through some hoops to keep the job he was in at the time. The whole thing was pretty unfair really, but even after it was found to be poppy seeds the new employer would not reinstate the offer.

I must admit I’ve always been slightly suspicious of the “I ate poppy seeds and failed a drug test” tales. The testing is robust enough not to attract false positives, and these excuses are invariably used by those who have taken something they shouldn’t have and been found out.

Overall the way this has been reported is quite misleading: the tribunal actually found that the claimant had breached the D&A policy and that the dismissal would have been fair purely on the facts (hence compensation reduced to zero), but the finding of unfairness was down to “procedural issues”.

It’s drummed into everybody that you need to ensure you comply with the policy and if in doubt, check. Buying herbal teas from dubious online source, not checking the ingredients, and failing a D&A test is conduct entirely deserving of being fired in my view.

Extract from Personnel Today report below:

Rail worker unfairly dismissed for drinking cocaine tea

Tribunal finds that Network Rail unfairly dismissed an employee for drinking coca tea but that claimant should receive no compensation.

www.personneltoday.com

The judge said that Glenholmes deliberately contradicted the terms of the drug and alcohol policy and therefore his contract “by not finding out what he was ingesting when drinking tea from South America where the packaging showed no ingredients”.

Given the facts, the judge said Network Rail Infrastructure’s dismissal of Glenholmes was clearly within the band of reasonable responses. He added: “In my judgment it is not just and equitable to award the claimant any compensation… Although there were procedural problems with how the case was dealt with by the respondent, leading as it did to the respondent’s concession that the dismissal was procedurally unfair, these are not so serious as to mean that the dismissal was also substantively unfair and in my judgment it was not.

 

[AndrewE]

That's an improvement, how long does it take for it to filter out of your system before you can take a medical ?

I wouldn't think it would make any difference, they will just have an allowance at the bottom of the scale for "dietary" opioids.

Poppy seeds are regularly used in Curry, I often fry a couple of teaspoons along with Cumin seeds when starting the sauce.

Our Lamb Rogan Josh recipe ("lamb with nuts") finishes with a tablespoon of "Poste - ground poppyseed."