LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if that rather scruffy and internal looking Powerpoint slide was meant to be published?

No worries, it has now and once something is on the Internet it can't come back off it

Making things simpler by introducing a whole new type of quota controlled ticket type which will be confusing to the average rail user.

I can picture it now, bank holiday Monday at the end of August. If you want to use LNER from Edinburgh to London mid afternoon (say from 13;00 to 15;30) and don't know the workrounds (buying from Haymarket etc) they will want £150+ for an advance ticket etc

This is 99% of the reason for doing this - to remove the price cap the Super Off Peak provided. They've said as much in the past.

Simplification is a veil for it, as there's nothing simple about the 70 minute fares, the restrictions are about the most complex thing I've ever seen!

"Success" will I'm sure be defined as "increases fares income".

 

[Iskra]

But isn't that pretty much what it is? It's effectively Advance, Advance with insurance, and Anytime - with the Anytime remaining unaffordable for many.

If this is needed at all, I think it would be much better offered as an additional ticket type, priced in between an advance and an off peak rather than removing the off-peak entirely. It would also be easier to assess the demand for them compared to other ticket types if this was done, and wouldn’t negatively impact any passengers; they could only gain through increased choice.

 

[yorksrob]

A disgraceful idea (to be expected from our Government of all the cretins).

 

[Bletchleyite]

If this is needed at all, I think it would be much better offered as an additional ticket type, priced in between an advance and an off peak rather than removing the off-peak entirely.

I don't think it would be utterly terrible to do one of these things:
1. Have an optional "insurance" product costing £20ish which allows you the 70 minute flexibility on any Advance
2. Have a flat "earlier train fee" and "rescue fee" for on the day changes to Advances within the 70 minutes (as easyJet have, or used to have)

I'm not sure it being a separate fare is beneficial.

 

[yorksrob]

It's designed to make walk-on travel unaffordable. That is the crux.

I notice from the slide in post 13 that even the flexi fare is limited in number and varies in price, so is just a more fancy advanced purchase ticket.

The idea of consistently competitive rail transport is more further away than ever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's designed to make walk-on travel unaffordable. That is the crux

It's designed to increase income, largely by removing the cap the Super Off Peak provided on fares on Friday evenings and Sunday afternoons in particular (plus things like Bank Holidays).

Secondarily it's designed to reduce usage of booking offices and TVMs, allowing these to be reduced in provision and opening hours. (Closing booking offices is off the agenda, but reducing them to open as one window doubling as an enquiries desk is certainly an option).

That is, its purpose is cost cutting and income increasing, as HM Government would like them to do.

They don't care about what passengers want in terms of flexibility, it's all about the economics of the railway, pure and simple.

 

[jon81uk]

For long-distance travel this makes a lot of sense, most people will book in advance, they know their plan and they will stick to the booked train. Treating travel between major cities similar to air travel seems sensible. Travelling London to Edinburgh is longer than London to Paris where you book in advance on Eurostar in the same way LNER are planning.

But this should only be for long-distance where advance would be the predominant ticket type. For short commuter type trips peak and off-peak on the day fares make more sense, there shouldn't be any advance fares available even.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For long-distance travel this makes a lot of sense, most people will book in advance, they know their plan and they will stick to the booked train. Treating travel between major cities similar to air travel seems sensible. Travelling London to Edinburgh is longer than London to Paris where you book in advance on Eurostar in the same way LNER are planning.

But this should only be for long-distance where advance would be the predominant ticket type. For short commuter type trips peak and off-peak on the day fares make more sense, there shouldn't be any advance fares available even.

This is why they've done the trial only on the longer journeys, notably not Leeds this time. That is a positive outcome (for them) is more likely.

But imagine this on London-Birmingham on Avanti? It'd be plainly ridiculous.

And don't get them wrong, this is about removing the cap the Super Off Peak provided. They've said as much.

 

[Iskra]

I don't think it would be utterly terrible to do one of these things:
1. Have an optional "insurance" product costing £20ish which allows you the 70 minute flexibility on any Advance
2. Have a flat "earlier train fee" and "rescue fee" for on the day changes to Advances within the 70 minutes (as easyJet have, or used to have)

I'm not sure it being a separate fare is beneficial.

Exactly, call it an ‘advance plus’ or something. Nobody would lose in that scenario and the reaction would be much more positive.

 

[yorksrob]

It's designed to increase income, largely by removing the cap the Super Off Peak provided on fares on Friday evenings and Sunday afternoons in particular (plus things like Bank Holidays).

Secondarily it's designed to reduce usage of booking offices and TVMs, allowing these to be reduced in provision and opening hours. (Closing booking offices is off the agenda, but reducing them to open as one window doubling as an enquiries desk is certainly an option).

That is, its purpose is cost cutting and income increasing, as HM Government would like them to do.

They don't care about what passengers want in terms of flexibility, it's all about the economics of the railway, pure and simple.

Like what I said !

 

[theageofthetra]

Having done a spot of digging, it appears that the initial routes this applies to are Kings Cross - Newcastle/Berwick-upon-Tweed/Edinburgh (and vice versa.)

So presumably I will just buy a ticket to Haymarket with my priv and still get the off peak?

 

[800001]

So presumably I will just buy a ticket to Haymarket with my priv and still get the off peak?

Yes

 

[yorksrob]

For long-distance travel this makes a lot of sense, most people will book in advance, they know their plan and they will stick to the booked train. Treating travel between major cities similar to air travel seems sensible. Travelling London to Edinburgh is longer than London to Paris where you book in advance on Eurostar in the same way LNER are planning.

But this should only be for long-distance where advance would be the predominant ticket type. For short commuter type trips peak and off-peak on the day fares make more sense, there shouldn't be any advance fares available even.

Slippery slope, there wouldn't be enough price gouging for just those routes, so expect it to be rolled out across the IC sector.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Allegedly there's at least one tier of Flex that can have a Priv discount applied. Haven't seen a brief yet however, so can't confirn that.

DMP and DNR Flexi Advance levels with the existing BUS and OES also available for Priv discount

 

[Bletchleyite]

Slippery slope, there wouldn't be enough price gouging for just those routes, so expect it to be rolled out across the IC sector.

DfT's strategy has in the past been quoted as being "airline style for long distance, contactless for local". The latter is obviously well on its way for the South East now, though other regions are rather behind.

 

[py_megapixel]

I think a better idea would be that you just choose three trains when buying and your ticket is valid on any of those. I'm far more likely to want a choice between travelling in the afternoon, in the late evening, or the following day, for example, than on three different trains within a couple of hours of each other.

 

[DanNCL]

Well this is great news… for the airlines!

A walk up fare even well in advance is often all you can find. The airlines often already undercut the off peak fare but no doubt some will pay a bit more to avoid air travel. With the train costing more than twice the cost of the plane? Not a chance, people will fly.

Oddly enough I don’t think this will have the expected increase in revenue, the leisure travellers that now make up a significant chunk of LNER’s client base will simply refuse to pay it take their business elsewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think a better idea would be that you just choose three trains when buying and your ticket is valid on any of those. I'm far more likely to want a choice between travelling in the afternoon, in the late evening, or the following day, for example, than on three different trains within a couple of hours of each other.

Complicated to implement I guess.

Interestingly I remember from school French lessons that way back when (i guess 80s or earlier) SNCF used to let you book a reservation on one train and then an insurance train as well in case you missed it (though the tickets were walk up). I forget the word for it though.

 

[miklcct]

DfT's strategy has in the past been quoted as being "airline style for long distance, contactless for local". The latter is obviously well on its way for the South East now, though other regions are rather behind.

I will probably fly as a result if I really need to travel long distance and emit the CO2, since the advantage of rail travel (no need to book ahead by taking the first train on my desired route) no longer exists.

For long-distance travel this makes a lot of sense, most people will book in advance, they know their plan and they will stick to the booked train. Treating travel between major cities similar to air travel seems sensible. Travelling London to Edinburgh is longer than London to Paris where you book in advance on Eurostar in the same way LNER are planning.

But this should only be for long-distance where advance would be the predominant ticket type. For short commuter type trips peak and off-peak on the day fares make more sense, there shouldn't be any advance fares available even.

How Eurostar operates is the reason why I have never visited Paris during my 2 years living in London. If Eurostar operates like a domestic train, I would probably visit France once every few months, just like visting other UK cities.

Well this is great news… for the airlines!

A walk up fare even well in advance is often all you can find. The airlines often already undercut the off peak fare but no doubt some will pay a bit more to avoid air travel. With the train costing more than twice the cost of the plane? Not a chance, people will fly.

Oddly enough I don’t think this will have the expected increase in revenue, the leisure travellers that now make up a significant chunk of LNER’s client base will simply refuse to pay it take their business elsewhere.

Yes, it's a great news for easyJet. I pay a bit more to avoid air travel because I don't need to chase schedule when taking LNER and can just simply walk to Edinburgh for the next train to London, with freedom to stop off whenever and wherever I want on the weekend, but if it costs more than twice of flying? I will emit the CO2 instead.

 

[Starmill]

Or are they being given free rein to charge what they like?

That's not really a great deal of difference from the current position to be honest. It's a state owned corporation regulating itself.

 

[jon81uk]

Yes, it's a great news for easyJet. I pay a bit more to avoid air travel because I don't need to chase schedule when taking LNER and can just simply walk to Edinburgh for the next train to London, with freedom to stop off whenever and wherever I want on the weekend, but if it costs more than twice of flying? I will emit the CO2 instead.

Or same as you would for a flight, open the website and check what price the next service is and then decide whether to take it or not.

 

[realemil]

Europe manages a much similar system whereby your ticket is valid for 60 minutes after purchase, and it seems to work just fine.

Although, these tickets are available at walk up, and are the norm. If these tickets were cheaper I feel like there are no issues with it

 

[Iskra]

Complicated to implement I guess.

Interestingly I remember from school French lessons that way back when (i guess 80s or earlier) SNCF used to let you book a reservation on one train and then an insurance train as well in case you missed it (though the tickets were walk up). I forget the word for it though.

Trenitalia let you travel on one of three trains, and it’s not complicated at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I will probably fly as a result if I really need to travel long distance and emit the CO2, since the advantage of rail travel (no need to book ahead by taking the first train on my desired route) no longer exists.

I think if this went national I'd give serious consideration to a brand new EV.

How Eurostar operates is the reason why I have never visited Paris during my 2 years living in London. If Eurostar operates like a domestic train, I would probably visit France once every few months, just like visting other UK cities.

Same. Since I've lived down South (22 years) I've done precisely one Eurostar day trip (which was during a fare sale). I tend to decide what to do on spare Saturdays on the day, and the fares are too high then.

If there was a £150ish walk up day return fare to Paris/Brussels (even with compulsory reservation) I'd have done many.

Yes, it's a great news for easyJet. I pay a bit more to avoid air travel because I don't need to chase schedule when taking LNER and can just simply walk to Edinburgh for the next train to London, with freedom to stop off whenever and wherever I want on the weekend, but if it costs more than twice of flying? I will emit the CO2 instead.

Certainly. If I have to have the same reduced flexibilty as flying, I might as well enjoy the speed of flying too (and it'll probably be cheaper anyway).

Trenitalia let you travel on one of three trains, and it’s not complicated at all.

Do you have a reference for this, please? I've booked Trenitalia tickets before and have never seen such a thing.

 

[Iskra]

I think if this went national I'd give serious consideration to a brand new EV.



Same. Since I've lived down South (22 years) I've done precisely one Eurostar day trip (which was during a fare sale). I tend to decide what to do on spare Saturdays on the day, and the fares are too high then.

If there was a £150ish walk up day return fare to Paris/Brussels (even with compulsory reservation) I'd have done many.



Certainly. If I have to have the same reduced flexibilty as flying, I might as well enjoy the speed of flying too (and it'll probably be cheaper anyway).



Do you have a reference for this, please? I've booked Trenitalia tickets before and have never seen such a thing.

We

I think if this went national I'd give serious consideration to a brand new EV.



Same. Since I've lived down South (22 years) I've done precisely one Eurostar day trip (which was during a fare sale). I tend to decide what to do on spare Saturdays on the day, and the fares are too high then.

If there was a £150ish walk up day return fare to Paris/Brussels (even with compulsory reservation) I'd have done many.



Certainly. If I have to have the same reduced flexibilty as flying, I might as well enjoy the speed of flying too (and it'll probably be cheaper anyway).



Do you have a reference for this, please? I've booked Trenitalia tickets before and have never seen such a thing.

Sorry, it is slightly different to what I said, it’s 4-hours after the train you book for.

Trainline eu says:

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's regional tickets without reservations - a totally different thing entirely. It's more like the way Manchester Metrolink singles used to be valid for an hour, or London bus singles (via contactless) are valid for 70 minutes (I think). Indeed it's closer to LNER's trial than choosing three trains would be.

In effect their regional tickets are valid 4 hours from being stamped in the machine to reduce re-use. Because you can't shove your iPhone in a stamping machine, online purchased ones have you choose a train and it's then valid for 4 hours from that time.

I guess you've got to 3 trains from that because 4 hours will typically give you 3 trains on an hourly service for a short regional journey (as it must be completed within those 4 hours).

 

[Iskra]

That's regional tickets without reservations - a totally different thing entirely. It's more like the way Manchester Metrolink singles used to be valid for an hour, or London bus singles (via contactless) are valid for 70 minutes (I think). Indeed it's closer to LNER's trial than choosing three trains would be.

It’s a time-limited ticket with a little flexibility, I don’t see how it’s so different to an ‘advance plus,’ and shows that such tickets can be implemented.

Obviously, they can’t do it on IC trains or above due to compulsory reservations, but we don’t have that problem here in the UK…

 

[Gaelan]

Like an off-peak single but with the times of validity based on your booked service. If you are booked at 18:30 you can just step on any train between 17:20 and 19:40, no questions asked. I think this isn't ideal but I do think it is simpler to understand than the current confusing mess of off-peak time restrictions

This is correct. They encourage you to change your reservation in the LNER app, but there's no requirement to do so.

 

[stephy]

So, can someone do a price comparison?
I'm sure last year a 'walk up' super off peak or off peak (can't remember which) was ~£62 with my railcard (Thameslink station to Edinburgh via King's Cross). I was relying on this again for a future journey coming soon - as I'm not yet sure which service I want to take.

 

[KGX]

The 70 min flex ticket is an unnecessary complication.

It would have been far better to have just a fixed and anytime tickets with fee free amendments on the fixed ticket via the app/office.
This was happening during covid for advance tickets. It worked great. It would often be zero cost to move an adjacent train.
It's happening (slightly less effectively) with a small fee, right now via Seatfrog.

As highlighted up thread, the 70 min flex ticket is going to end up in stupid situations where it is cheaper to buy a semi-flex to travel on a train 30 mins either side.