Msq71423
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From the staff briefing document priv rate is available on the advance prices on these journeys.
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LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets
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Agent_Squash
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For business travel, yes.
Not for leisure journeys like those that make up the majority of LNER’s passengers, and without an expense account!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Ask Ryanair that.
Kite159
Veteran Member
They won't, give it a week or so when the dust settles and the price increases will start for both Advance & the stupid Flexy Singles.
Agent_Squash
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You can buy a flight from Manchester to Dublin for £13.66 tomorrow. Hardly upping the fares for last minute ticket buyers.
Equally, if you choose an earlier flight, you could pay £130 for the privilege. Exactly how yield and demand management should work!
Msq71423
Member
None of this is genuinely simplifying fares unless it's applied as a national change across the board (which would be ridiculous with this change). This change doesn't benefit passengers, only the TOC. Indeed the very lengthy staff briefing document says towards the end "Simpler Fares is linked primarily to the challenge of reducing crowding". (Sorry I can't paste a link due to it being an internal document).
Another point for confusion, and I've asked this question to LNER and will post the answer when I get it. If I hypothetically bought one of these tickets for the 1100 train, but then intended to travel on the 1000 train (which I am not obliged to tell them of my intention). However the 1000 train is then cancelled so go on the original 1100 train. As I am delayed an hour would my delay repay claim stand given I am delayed an hour from my intended journey time - but the ticket would show 1100 train time on it.
Another point for confusion, and I've asked this question to LNER and will post the answer when I get it. If I hypothetically bought one of these tickets for the 1100 train, but then intended to travel on the 1000 train (which I am not obliged to tell them of my intention). However the 1000 train is then cancelled so go on the original 1100 train. As I am delayed an hour would my delay repay claim stand given I am delayed an hour from my intended journey time - but the ticket would show 1100 train time on it.
Surely the primary selling point of rail was that you'd be treated better than Ryanair?
Even Flixbus sometimes can't compete on price against Ryanair. Almost no other form of transport can. LNER certainly don't. They could however have chosen to compete on quality and customer service, more similar to Loganair.
redreni
Established Member
Bending over backwards, the small degree of additional flexibility offered by this Flex 70 fare might sometimes be useful for the type of travel I often do, which is to follow a sports team. Usually I allow a decent amount of time before and after the game for (sensible, moderate) social drinking but for longer trips, sometimes the day is plenty long enough for me and I just want to book the first train I can get after the game. Sometimes you look at a train and think "that's a bit marginal - a long injury or lots of timewasting plus a slow journey back to the station afterwards and I'd be struggling". Sometimes you look at a train and think "I definitely can't risk booking it, but I'd aim for it if I had a flexible ticket and on a good day I'd catch it." This would be useful for those cases as you could book the train an hour after the marginal one and still aim for the marginal one.
It's only a good thing in circumstances like that, though, and only if the Flex 70 is actually cheaper than the (super) off-peak fares that are being withdrawn. I suspect it'll be a bit cheaper to begin with, but less so as time goes on.
The Flex 70 will not be cheaper than the Super Off Peak fares that are being withdrawn. In addition, to get anything like a decent price you'll need to book as soom as tickets go on sale.
ServerHoster
Member
Not sure if this has already been brought up; sorry I don't have time to read all 8 pages of this thread so far, but:
This also impacts customers who make an honest mistake with their ticket. Or those who may have been booked on Lumo/Grand Central/Hull Trains etc. but decide to take LNER due to cancellation etc.
Right now LNER charges a full anytime single fare if someone has not got the right ticket, but staff can use the discretion to charge a super off peak instead. No super off peak = no discretion.
The PRIV discount can also be used to make the "70-min flex" tickets seem more popular than they actually are.
Currently a super off peak ticket is cheapest for PRIV holders.
In a few weeks, the 70 min flex will be the cheapest ticket as PRIV can't be used on normal advance tickets, only the 70 min flex ones.
So PRIV holders will buy a 70 min flex as it's the cheapest. Therefore making the 70 min flex seem more popular than it actually is.
This also impacts customers who make an honest mistake with their ticket. Or those who may have been booked on Lumo/Grand Central/Hull Trains etc. but decide to take LNER due to cancellation etc.
Right now LNER charges a full anytime single fare if someone has not got the right ticket, but staff can use the discretion to charge a super off peak instead. No super off peak = no discretion.
The PRIV discount can also be used to make the "70-min flex" tickets seem more popular than they actually are.
Currently a super off peak ticket is cheapest for PRIV holders.
In a few weeks, the 70 min flex will be the cheapest ticket as PRIV can't be used on normal advance tickets, only the 70 min flex ones.
So PRIV holders will buy a 70 min flex as it's the cheapest. Therefore making the 70 min flex seem more popular than it actually is.
I posed the same question upthread but haven't asked LNER; the answer has got to be that yes, you can claim as your intention was to take the 1000 and you even paid £20 extra for the privilege of making that choice.
If you had a Super Off Peak fare, and had happened to have a reservation for the 1100, you would be entitled to claim. If LNER are attempting to say that Flex offers disbenefits in respect of Delay Repay, that would be interesting and damning, so they would be wise to avoid making any such claims; either way I will be interested to hear what they say.
Yes I mentioned that above. This is another reason why DfT/LNER will be very happy with the change.
I am sure the figures will be used in any way possible to claim that the 70 minute tickets are popular and that the trial is a success.
Yes if all you want is +/- 70 mins, and are happy to be stuck with LNER only, it could benefit you.
But there is no guarantee the fares will be cheaper than the Super Off Peak was. However, during the trial period, you can be sure LNER will avoid ramping up the prices too much. Once the trial is deemed a success, that is when the prices will really go through the roof. So doing any price comparison now may not be comparable with the long-term costs of the changes.
Another reason why LNER can't ramp up the prices too much now is because it is very easy to circumvent them; either by purchasing a longer distance ticket, or to use a site such as our booking site, which looks for "splits".
So, in summary, you support these changes because it makes LNER more like an airline and will avoid the price cap that currently avoids passengers being charged excessive amounts during (super) off peak periods?
This sounds rather like something the DfT would say
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Joe Paxton
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Re this 'loophole' of sorts - also discussed by @Watershed in this post (#94) - would the Semi-Flex fare need to be actively rebooked (via e.g. the app) to make it valid on another service within -/+ 70 mins?
Also, is there some further hidden meanings within the phrase "any valid LNER train" (I note that you have to arrive within 180 mins of your original arrival time).
I take on board Watershed's point in their post that Semi-Flex fares aren't being made available on several (shoulder) peak trains to try and limit this, but nevertheless for anyone with a bit of nous this -/+ 70 mins window is there to be utilised to their advantage.
Iskra
Established Member
Surely anyone with PRIV will have the knowledge to buy a Metrocentre-Haymarket off peak return instead?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Tomorrow isn't last minute. Traditionally Advances (if any left) were available until 2359 the day before.
Last minute is turning up at the airport because you've just been bereaved or you've missed your flight, analogous to buying a walk up at the station or on your phone on the bus there. It'll be three figures then. Traditionally years ago all on the day Ryanair fares were £299, but I suspect they can go higher than that now.
I suspect this is to stop people breaking their journey. But I've never understood why the railway has this thing against people dropping back a train to go for a McD's. I understand not wanting people to start short and save money, but that's not applicable to these as they're not pricing shorter trips higher than longer ones, it's like they've got it in for people who just want to stop off for sustenance.
miklcct
On Moderation
I can see this is bad for every imaginable passenger:
A. The price sensitive ones who don't need flexibility.
Now: They book Advance or Super Off-Peak
Future: They book Advance, but if the train is too popular, the Advance becomes expensive and they don't travel.
B. The price sensitive ones who needs flexibility.
Now: They book Super Off-Peak
Future: They don't travel
C. Those who must travel at all costs.
Now: They buy Advance, Super Off-Peak or Anytime as needed, and choose the cheaper of a train or a plane
Future: They still do the same, but as there is no Super Off-Peak acting as the price cap of the train, they are more likely to fly
A. The price sensitive ones who don't need flexibility.
Now: They book Advance or Super Off-Peak
Future: They book Advance, but if the train is too popular, the Advance becomes expensive and they don't travel.
B. The price sensitive ones who needs flexibility.
Now: They book Super Off-Peak
Future: They don't travel
C. Those who must travel at all costs.
Now: They buy Advance, Super Off-Peak or Anytime as needed, and choose the cheaper of a train or a plane
Future: They still do the same, but as there is no Super Off-Peak acting as the price cap of the train, they are more likely to fly
ServerHoster
Member
PRIV also includes some family members of railway workers who might not know that
Nope; it is automatically valid within the time window. LNER Guards get a blue light (rather than red/green).
Yes it is true that the cheapest fare for some trains will be to deliberately book the Flex fare for a cheaper train. It is also true that LNER will be adding complexity to try to reduce this, but they won't be able to fully avoid it.
As always, it's a game of cat and mouse. And there's only one way to win: don't be the mouse
Iskra
Established Member
I would also suggest that this is a delay repay opportunist’s dream, since LNER can’t prove your intentions.
As far as I can see, it also means that there’s no valid single ticket priced between the Advances and Anytime for those journey opportunities which involve changing into XC at Doncaster or TPE at York.
I can only really see this working for journeys to and from London as there are just too many other variables and interactions with other TOCs elsewhere.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The idea of being able to pay a flat extra £20 for "missed train insurance" (without having to give a reason) on an Advance seems perfectly reasonable to me. It shouldn't however replace walk up fares, nor the price cap provided by them (which is what this is about).
Joe Paxton
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Thanks. At least that is straightforward.
Yes it is true that the cheapest fare for some trains will be to deliberately book the Flex fare for a cheaper train. It is also true that LNER will be adding complexity to try to reduce this, but they won't be able to fully avoid it.
As always, it's a game of cat and mouse. And there's only one way to win: don't be the mouse
This put me in mind of the easyJet Flexi fares of times past - more expensive than regular fares, but allowed you to to another flight in a month-long window of one week earlier or three weeks later. It was possible to use this to sometimes change onto a flight at a cheaper price even than the standard fare for said flight at the time of booking. Gradually however easyJet's yield planners wised up to things and it became harder to take advantage of - more uniform prices of Flexi fares over a time period, and the Flexi fares themselves got more expensive.
Nowadays (since the pandemic I think) easyJet's Flexi fares only allow a free change to another flight within a +/- 1 day window of your original flight date.
Msq71423
Member
I'm slightly confused by something it says on restriction code FL at https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/fl/
OK I get that. But then it also has
OK I get that. But then it also has
How do you change trains mid journey on this London to Edinburgh journey, to a train which also left London during the period of flexibility, without having a break of journey? Or am I missing something? (Very possible!)
Using station facilities isn’t classed as a break of journey, so you could get off somewhere, have a coffee/meal/pint in the station, and get back on.
Msq71423
Member
Thank you for explaining.
No more than (Super) Off Peak, to be fair.
LNER don't want to be sharing revenue with other operators; if you want the flexibility to use other operators, then they want you to buy the Anytime fare.
If it is successful then I expect they will either allow connections or even force splitting, with the LNER site doing splits automatically (but not necessarily the best ones; in fact this is nothing new as they already do this, but to a standard that is much poorer than the forum's site achieves).
LNER abolished Off Peak on these flows last year; now they are abolishing Super Off Peak. It's all about making the operation more and more like an airline, and pandering to the sort of simpleton who believes that Ryanair-style pricing is "simple" and desirable.
DfT/LNER really do not like reasonably priced walk-up fares; they are not particularly interested in the £20 thing, but they probably grudgingly see it as something they unavoidably have to do, to justify abolishing the (Super) Off Peak fares. The idea that they would keep the fares they don't want to keep, while also giving passengers an additional option, would go completely against the primary purpose of this exercise!
I'd be alright with Anytime and Advance as the only options. No different to flying.
The 70 min flex thing is an odd fudge.
Except it is different from flying. Not least because you don't have to go through security, it goes from city centre to city centre, and the journey itself takes longer. All of that means that you can (and need to) minimize the amount of contingency time you build into your schedule. There are also a lot more trains on the East Coast route than there are planes from any given airport, so it's realistic to get a different one from the one you planned. Admittedly the 70 minute ticket covers most of these use-cases, but only just, and it's clearly a less valuable ticket than the off-peak tickets it is replacing.
If all the "convenience" of airline ticketing, and all the assurance that you might not be able to afford to get home on any given day, suits people then they can just get a flight. The trains already have (in the case of LNER) lots of passengers who are depending on it to get them home for a predictable fare.
I could just about accept this simplification except for two things. The first is that it's almost certainly cover for a significant price hike - this could be addressed by adding a requirement that a significant proportion of trains in a day have the 70 minute fare set to the same level as the current regulated off-peak fare.
The second and more-difficult-to-address problem is that you just won't be able to get these tickets if all the seats in the train are booked, even if you're willing to stand. I'm not always able to make plans with multiple days of notice, and if I have to get the train at short notice then even standing for 4 hours would be preferable to not getting home at all, only now it will be literally unaffordable. I'm aware that Virgin EC and subsequently LNER have had a bee in their bonnet about people standing ever since Corbyn did that attempted hatchet-job, but having been in a shouting match is really not sufficient reason to effectively break the relationship the railway has with a large proportion of its users.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
People accept awkward fare structures for flying because it's so fast. But the car competes with most rail journeys, and as such you need to offer that flexibility else a lot of people will just drive. A new EV is looking very attractive at the moment.
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