Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[poffle]

You and others on this thread quote NO 807s TO LIVERPOOL but where has this come from? I have not seen any evidence from Network Rail/Avanti to this effect. I do find it strange that 805s and in and out of Liverpool on electric power nearly every day (even 807002 has been here) so it does not make sense that you say they cannot come here.

This starts at post 1815 in this thread which refers to statement at a TFN board meeting that 805s will be running on diesel north of Crewe due to power limitations on the WCML preventing 807s running on overhead power.

I assume that there is a difference between what test trains are allowed to do and regular hourly scheduled services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2024 ==

This starts at post 1815 in this thread which refers to statement at a TFN board meeting that 805s will be running on diesel north of Crewe due to power limitations on the WCML preventing 807s running on overhead power.

I assume that there is a difference between what test trains are allowed to do and regular hourly scheduled services.

Extract from Minutes of TfN Board Meeting on 20/3/24

4.17 On paragraph 5.8 of the report relating to the second service to Liverpool operating in diesel mode between Crewe to Liverpool, Cllr Corcoran asked what is being done to address restore the power supply issues between Crewe and Liverpool, which trains will be used to provide the second Liverpool service and where they will originate from. Additionally, he sought reassurance that there will be no restrictions on the Crewe to Chester route.

4.18 In response to Members’ questions and comments, Mr Montgomery addressed a number of issues. Regarding the second Liverpool service he stated he is aware of the impact on the economy of current poor performance and believes that services will improve in the area. He recognised the importance of rectifying the issues with the current hourly service before considering a second train. He said the new trains to be used are “bi modes” (a mix of diesel and electric) with the diesel element used in areas where the lines are not electrified/power supply is limited.

Documents at: https://democracy.transportforthenorth.com/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=152&MId=1426

 

[clchloe]

When can they be expected in service to Holyhead?

 

[DJH1971]

This starts at post 1815 in this thread which refers to statement at a TFN board meeting that 805s will be running on diesel north of Crewe due to power limitations on the WCML preventing 807s running on overhead power.

I assume that there is a difference between what test trains are allowed to do and regular hourly scheduled services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2024 ==


Extract from Minutes of TfN Board Meeting on 20/3/24

4.17 On paragraph 5.8 of the report relating to the second service to Liverpool operating in diesel mode between Crewe to Liverpool, Cllr Corcoran asked what is being done to address restore the power supply issues between Crewe and Liverpool, which trains will be used to provide the second Liverpool service and where they will originate from. Additionally, he sought reassurance that there will be no restrictions on the Crewe to Chester route.

4.18 In response to Members’ questions and comments, Mr Montgomery addressed a number of issues. Regarding the second Liverpool service he stated he is aware of the impact on the economy of current poor performance and believes that services will improve in the area. He recognised the importance of rectifying the issues with the current hourly service before considering a second train. He said the new trains to be used are “bi modes” (a mix of diesel and electric) with the diesel element used in areas where the lines are not electrified/power supply is limited.

Documents at: https://democracy.transportforthenorth.com/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=152&MId=1426

So it sounds like the 807's will be restricted to Birmingham to London trains for the time being.

 

[MCR247]

I’m surprised there are enough 805s to go around

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m surprised there are enough 805s to go around

There aren't really, it will result in delays restarting a full North Wales service or short formations on these (though remember 5.805 has substantially more capacity than 5.221 despite the higher comfort level).

 

[Blindtraveler]

So am I to understand that North Wales services will actually be reduced not just in capacity but in frequency with this supposed improved new fleet

 

[Bletchleyite]

So am I to understand that North Wales services will actually be reduced not just in capacity but in frequency with this supposed improved new fleet

I doubt they'll be reduced in frequency from what they are now.

The idea is still 807s to Liverpool but the power work needs to be done first, it seems.

 

[Blindtraveler]

And if it takes as long as the one that they're supposed to be doing north of Newcastle, then these new trains will be ready for midlife refurbishment by the time it's actually switched on

 

[dk1]

And if it takes as long as the one that they're supposed to be doing north of Newcastle, then these new trains will be ready for midlife refurbishment by the time it's actually switched on

You can’t rush these things

 

[St. Paddy]

805011 moved to Oxley today

 

[hexagon789]

There aren't really, it will result in delays restarting a full North Wales service or short formations on these (though remember 5.805 has substantially more capacity than 5.221 despite the higher comfort level).

I suppose it depends how you look at 'short forming' but from memory everything is being booked a single set...

 

[Jamesrob637]

I suppose it depends how you look at 'short forming' but from memory everything is being booked a single set...

Then it's a back step, because most North Wales services are currently booked doubles.

5 80X will definitely not equate to 10 22X!

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Then it's a back step, because most North Wales services are currently booked doubles.

5 80X will definitely not equate to 10 22X!

They may be booked doubles as far as Crewe or Chester definitely not up the North Wales coast.

 

[duffield]

They may be booked doubles as far as Crewe or Chester definitely not up the North Wales coast.

One service per day (1D83 0902 London Euston to Holyhead and the return service 1A62 1448 Holyhead to London Euston) is normally 5+5 all the way (today was an exception as it was cancelled between Euston and Crewe and ran as a single unit).

Realtime trains shows the 10 coach arrival and departure at Holyhead. And I've travelled on it, so it's not a mistake.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

One service per day (1D83 0902 London Euston to Holyhead and the return service 1A62 1448 Holyhead to London Euston) is normally 5+5 all the way (today was an exception as it was cancelled between Euston and Crewe and ran as a single unit).

Realtime trains shows the 10 coach arrival and departure at Holyhead. And I've travelled on it, so it's not a mistake.

Yes one a day, but the post I was commenting made out they were mostly booked doubles.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes one a day, but the post I was commenting made out they were mostly booked doubles.

A double set works ECS from Central Rivers to form the 0920 Chester-Euston.
The early Holyhead-Euston (0732 from Chester) doubles up there with the Wrexham portion.

 

[poffle]

Bit of thinking out loud here:

Wonder if they might run some 807s Euston - Crewe and Some 805 shuttles from Crewe to North Wales, Liverpool, Blackpool ?

Other possibility is some if the Scottish semi fasts that currently run Euston - Birmingham - Scotland. I think historically done of these were separate trains which connected in West Midlands. Might use 807s for the southern part of some of the services. Might release some pendolino capacity for Liverpool but I think the Scottish ones are nearly all 11 car Pendolino so a 7 car 807 would have significantly less capacity.

I don't think these options are likely but are possible. Best action would be to focus on getting the power upgraded.

( Could also hold onto some of the Voyagers but I can imagine there are a load of contractual liabilities involved with that and supporting an additional train type for an extended period could be complex operationally.)

 

[AJDesiro]

Realistically, I'd hedge a bet on 2tph to Liverpool not happening until a power upgrade, or at all. Everything else will probably continue as planned.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

805010 has replaced 805005 on Edge Hill CS this morning.

 

[Trainbike46]

Where the capacity of a double voyager is only needed south of Crewe, you could run a 805+807 set instead, reducing the number of 805s required

 

[Boodiggy]

Where the capacity of a double voyager is only needed south of Crewe, you could run a 805+807 set instead, reducing the number of 805s required

Issue with running 805 + 807 in passenger service is very few platforms can accommodate the length of train.

 

[Jamesrob637]

So will stuff still be 10 805 south of Crewe or Chester?

 

[Trainbike46]

Issue with running 805 + 807 in passenger service is very few platforms can accommodate the length of train.

Don't the North Wales services mostly only stop in Crewe, Stafford and Euston south of Crewe? It should fit at all three of those - exactly at Stafford, more spaciously at Crewe and Euston

an 805+807 is 312 metres long, so any station with platforms at least that length should fit the combination

 

[Boodiggy]

Don't the North Wales services mostly only stop in Crewe, Stafford and Euston south of Crewe? It should fit at all three of those - exactly at Stafford, more spaciously at Crewe and Euston

an 805+807 is 312 metres long, so any station with platforms at least that length should fit the combination

There are not plans to run them this way and no 12 car stop markers have been measured because like I said hardly any stations can accommodate the length of train including most platforms at Euston.

 

[duffield]

Don't the North Wales services mostly only stop in Crewe, Stafford and Euston south of Crewe? It should fit at all three of those - exactly at Stafford, more spaciously at Crewe and Euston

an 805+807 is 312 metres long, so any station with platforms at least that length should fit the combination

Just checked on RTT and - for example - Monday to Friday two of the five Euston->Holyhead services stop at Tamworth and Lichfield.

Neither of them are 312m, I make them about 295m (Tamworth) and 270m (Lichfield) maximum from Google Earth, so the official usable length is probably a bit less.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just checked on RTT and - for example - Monday to Friday two of the five Euston->Holyhead services stop at Tamworth and Lichfield.
Neither of them are 312m, I make them about 295m (Tamworth) and 270m (Lichfield) maximum from Google Earth, so the official usable length is probably a bit less.

The SA gives Tamworth LL 295m/267m (down/up), and Lichfield TV as 268m/255m (down/up).

 

[Meerkat]

A double set works ECS from Central Rivers to form the 0920 Chester-Euston.
The early Holyhead-Euston (0732 from Chester) doubles up there with the Wrexham portion.

With these new trains going to Oxley it would handy to have the link to the northbound WCML electrified…..
I know the 805s can use diesel but the 807s can’t if they need to get between Oxley and Liverpool.

 

[Sorcerer]

I find it frankly shambolic that a set of 10 electric trains were ordered partly for the second Liverpool service, and yet because of the need for a power upgrade they won't be going north of Crewe.

The 805s won't have enough capacity, without running double, and they're needed for North Wales services

So what I assume this means is that there will be a surplus of 807s for the Birmingham semi-fast services and no extra Pendolinos for the second Liverpool service, which is almost like the worst of both worlds.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

So will stuff still be 10 805 south of Crewe or Chester?

There are no changes to the formations, where a set is currently a double set it will remain so.

 

[childwallblues]

805010 has replaced 805005 at Edge Hill Depot