Worst Rolling Stock in UK

[WestCoast]

Thought I would add my two pence.

Well, let's get the obvious out of the way: Pacers! Merseytravel refurbed 142s are just dire. I am not a fan of 150s either, especially the ones with the cramped 3-2 bay seating.

Personal choice. Smooth, quiet, peaceful. Only 350/2s have 3+2 seating, a tend to be stuck on the tring/Northampton-Euston runs, as well as a couple of Birmingham-Euston/Liverpool runs. Sit away from the toilet, and if I didn't have to be anywhere fast, I would happily stay on a 350/1 all day.

The Desiros are nice units but I wouldn't go as far to say "smooth, quiet, peaceful". They aren't that smooth at top speed. I'd rather not sit on one all day. Plus, there is always the risk Crewe-Euston ends up as a 350/2!

I am not keen on Voyagers - too small, XC versions look tatty e.t.c. Pendolinos I don't see a problem with - they are very nice in first class, not too bad in standard. The best standard seats are the ones in Quiet Coach nearest the cab - full window view and decent legroom. I particularly like using Pendos on short journeys like Wigan - Preston, much preferable to the Northern 150!

The Mark 3/4s are good but they won't go on forever.

Overall though, mainland European high speed trains completely outshine anything in the UK. The likes of TGVs and TALGO 350 offer a far superior experience to any Voyager. My personal favourite is the Siemens Velaro (DB ICE3, ICE3M and ICE-Tilting), very comfortable, fast, plenty of space even on the tilting version. very classy interiors (including bar/restaurant) and a front-lounge with forward view! Additionally, I am a huge fan of double decker EMUs and stock on regional services - the Dutch VIRMs are great, as well as the local hauled stock on German regional services.
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I'll give you a clue: It's a 3-car 3xx operated by LM and NT.

I remember that thread: personally I think the 323s are EMUs with character! Unlike soulless desiros (see above).

 

[4SRKT]

<sigh>

Yet another pacer-bashing thread, dressed up as something else with a clever piece of sophistry in the title, and with the usual comments from people (presumably/hopefully) too young to have any idea of what the world was like in the 1980s, and that pacers very probably saved many lines and services from closure. It is always wrong to view the past from the values and standpoint of the present. The past is a foreign country my friends.

 

[Ivo]

I remember that thread: personally I think the 323s are EMUs with character! Unlike soulless desiros (see above).

Not to me they aren't. And Desiros are much better than 323s, but they get a bit boring after a while.

This would apply to Pacers though! Now that is character. I used to be pretty much the King of the Anti-Pacers on here, but 2011 has seen a reversal of that trend! I was quite disappointed when I had a 150 [pair] to Harrogate instead of a 144 on Thursday...

 

[WestCoast]

<sigh>

Yet another pacer-bashing thread, dressed up as something else with a clever piece of sophistry in the title, and with the usual comments from people (presumably/hopefully) too young to have any idea of what the world was like in the 1980s, and that pacers very probably saved many lines and services from closure. It is always wrong to view the past from the values and standpoint of the present. The past is a foreign country my friends.

Fine, they served their purpose, now get them out!

Northern Rail has to deal with masses of these inadequate units day in day out on routes they were never designed for! Were 142s designed with the thought of carrying jam-packed commuters like a tube train? I think not!

They are quirky units from an enthusiasts viewpoint, but suffering passengers DO NOT CARE!! Standing up on one is a nightmare, bouncing about with no handrails.

My particular bugbear is with the 142s, with bus seated benches or even worse, Merseytravel seats.

 

[4SRKT]

Fine, they served their purpose, now get them out!

Northern Rail has to deal with masses of these units day in day out on routes they were never designed for! Were 142s designed with the thought of carrying jam-packed commuters like a tube train, I think not!

They are quirky units from an enthusiasts viewpoint, but suffering passengers DO NOT CARE!! Standing up on one is a nightmare, bouncing about with no handrails.

My particular bugbear is with the 142s, with bus seated benches or even worse, Merseytravel seats.

Get them out and replace them with what exactly? I think passengers would rather have a pacer than nothing. Why are you doing the shouty capitals thing at me about passengers and enthusiasts? I never mentioned enthusiasts, in fact we hated them at the time (not that we liked 101s, 108s etc much then either).

 

[Lampshade]

You can guess what my vote will go to can't you?

I'll give you a clue: It's a 3-car 3xx operated by LM and NT.

323s are brilliant, heading out of Crewe towards Manchester they feel like they're going warp speed

 

[WestCoast]

Get them out and replace them with what exactly? I think passengers would rather have a pacer than nothing. Why are you doing the shouty capitals thing at me about passengers and enthusiasts? I never mentioned enthusiasts, in fact we hated them at the time (not that we liked 101s, 108s etc much then either).

Ignore shouty capitals, I don't know how to make text bold on a phone.

Certain TOCs are having to keep them to 2020, with no prospect of anything better. But of course, the message is "put up and shut up" and that's all people can expect in this country. My point was that "regular passengers" don't care whether or not they are quirky, they just want a decent ride and ideally a seat and if not somewhere safe to stand. Pacers don't offer any of that in the peaks. Answer me this, were pacers designed for 30+ years service?

Pacers aren't always running on "quiet brachlines" in the North, they are running heavily loaded commuter services and long-distance services, which I don't believe they were designed for. Slammers were old, but they could do their job.

My point is that there is a growing band of seemingly "Pacer apologists". Pacers have a purpose, running on branchlines (and very quiet rural services) where anything more is unfeasible. They are forced to stretch much further than that and act like a second-rate Turbostar.

Pacers are away from the lands of South East England. In London, on the GOBLIN line, I heared many complaints about the "worst train in the world". This was a 150 at the time, and so I dread to think what they would make of the Pacer situation. Yes, they had slammers for a long time, but as mentioned, they could do their job and were designed with their purpose as short-medium distance commuting stock in mind.

 

[Darandio]

Well that's the problem, certain TOCs are having to keep them to 2020, with no prospect of anthing better. My point was that "regular passengers" don't care whether or not they are quirky, they just want a decent ride and ideally a seat and if not somewhere safe to stand. Pacers don't offer any of that in the peaks. Pacers aren't running on brachlines in the North, they are running heavily loaded commuter services and long-distance services, of which they are totally unsuited to do. Slammers were old, but they could do their job.

But like has been said numerous times, what can be done? On certain flows, a 156 might turn up in place of a Pacer and what is different? Still a crazy amount of people trying to board, some cannot get on and a portion of those who do still have to stand. There is not a great deal more comfort standing in a 156 than a Pacer.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thought I would begin a thread where people voiced their opinions on which rolling stock they think is the worst in the UK.

My choice has to be the 142 Pacer, the train that should really be a bus. Yet, it is run on busy commuter lines e.g. Middlesbrough to Carlisle, resulting in a lack of space both for yourself and for your belongings and to top it off you are submitted to the hurrendous incessant screeching noise throughout you're journey! Im my opinion the 142 is a totally flawed idea, that should be confined to the quietest of rural lines.

I suppose that you regret not making this a Poll Thread now, even if only to see what percentage would vote for Class 142 Pacers.

 

[Darandio]

Another problem is what definition you put on the worst rolling stock.

Of course, for many, its easy to point the finger straight at the Pacer, it has many aspects that are unenjoyable. However, I dare say many who are quick to condemn them are either not in an area served by them or very rarely have a need to use them. For others, like myself, they are a lifesaver. Regardless of how uncomfortable they are, they get people to work reliably, safely and on time for the vast majority of the time. To say that is what they are not designed for is nonsense, what else is a train supposed to do?

I notice Voyagers, Pendolinos and the like have been mentioned and with merit too. To pay a premium price for a long journey on a Voyager, only to be met with a decayed interior, a seat back tray that rattles for the whole journey and constant vibration from an underfloor engine. Then you add in the problems the TOC are not responsible for like train length which leads to overcrowding and having to go the whole journey without refreshments because the trolley never arrives due to the above crowding. In my mind, that all adds up to a pretty poor piece of rolling stock.

 

[Ivo]

Don't give him any ideas! We had enough of the things with a certain someone whose abbreviated name with be PB during the Pacer Wars at the start of last year!

 

[WestCoast]

Of course, for many, its easy to point the finger straight at the Pacer, it has many aspects that are unenjoyable. However, I dare say many who are quick to condemn them are either not in an area served by them or very rarely have a need to use them. For others, like myself, they are a lifesaver. Regardless of how uncomfortable they are, they get people to work reliably, safely and on time for the vast majority of the time. To say that is what they are not designed for is nonsense, what else is a train supposed to do?

The point about design is valid. Yes, in simple terms, a train is designed to carry passengers from A to B. However, is a class 222 designed (and catered for) use on for rural branchlines? Quite obviously not. The same way as a pacer isn't designed for packed commuter services, like a class 375 is.

Pacers are suitable for this? Too small, too bouncy, too cramped, not enough doors, I could go on. I could argue the same about most sprinters, but they offer a better ride and at least the 150s are slightly better at handling this sort of thing.

By the way one of my local lines is a 142-fest and as such I am a regular user at busy times. I am not an outside commentator.

 

[Yew]

But like has been said numerous times, what can be done? On certain flows, a 156 might turn up in place of a Pacer and what is different? Still a crazy amount of people trying to board, some cannot get on and a portion of those who do still have to stand. There is not a great deal more comfort standing in a 156 than a Pacer.

at least its less work, standing on a pacer is hard, but 156's are pretty smooth (as MK4's used them as a starting point)

A lot of the routes pacers are used on, would be okay with a sprinter, for example the orning train into lincoln it has lots of people standing, that would be sitting in a larger sprinter.

I think work needs to be started to replace 142's then 144's Hopefully the 172's will allow some 150's to replace pacers on some northern rail routes, and northern will see reduced use of pacers due to the extra capacity of 150's on the most crowded routes. or if they have more crowded routes/services than they have new sprinters. double up services or have more services timetabled

 

[Darandio]

The same way as a pacer isn't designed for packed commuter services, like a class 375 is.

There is the solution then, on certain units do a complete remodel of the inside, plenty of standing room and some sideways facing seats. It then becomes suitable for packed commuter services by design.

Pacers aren't suitable for this? Too small, too bouncy, too cramped.

That is positively empty compared to what I am frequently subjected to!

 

[WestCoast]

There is the solution then, on certain units do a complete remodel of the inside, plenty of standing room and some sideways facing seats. It then becomes suitable for packed commuter services by design.

Please don't give the DfT ideas. We'll be stuck with them for ever and eternity.:cry:

Does anyone remember those new-build low-cost Chinese trains that Northern was interested in at one stage?

 

[valenta]

Another problem is what definition you put on the worst rolling stock.

Of course, for many, its easy to point the finger straight at the Pacer, it has many aspects that are unenjoyable. However, I dare say many who are quick to condemn them are either not in an area served by them or very rarely have a need to use them. For others, like myself, they are a lifesaver. Regardless of how uncomfortable they are, they get people to work reliably, safely and on time for the vast majority of the time. To say that is what they are not designed for is nonsense, what else is a train supposed to do?

I frequently commute on Pacers, that is the reason why I am inclined to speak about them so harshly. As shown in the video posted earlier, the conditions on many trains are often far too cramped and there is inadequate room for luggage.

I didn't intend to create a thread to "bad mouth" pacers, I appreciate for train operators that there is no other alternative with lack of funds.

I agree with the criticism of the Voyagers, I believe it was a mistake for Virgin to abolish their HST's. The interior leaves a lot to be desired and the journey is not always comfortable, not to mention the smell around the toilet areas.

Thank you

 

[asylumxl]

I agree with the criticism of the Voyagers, I believe it was a mistake for Virgin to abolish their HST's. The interior leaves a lot to be desired and the journey is not always comfortable, not to mention the smell around the toilet areas.

Your username is Valenta. Are you sure that you're completely unbiased?

 

[HST Power]

Your username is Valenta. Are you sure that you're completely unbiased?

We're all a bit biased to particular trains on here, whether it's by username or avatar it sneaks out eventually! No prizes for guessing which train I'll be backing

 

[Greenback]

If a Pacer is sent down to Tenby and Pembroke Dock in holiday seasons, when there is a need for two coaches because of the numbe rof people travelling, you cna see they are very unsuitable for such a service!

There is notwhere to put the luggage that is associated with such a trip, which means that half the seats are taken up with bags. The toilet facilites are totally inadequate for the families who have often travelled long distances before getting on the Pacer in Swansea. The ride is horrendous, and I'm surprised that anyone ever uses a train again!

They aren't so bad space wise on a journey from Cardiff to Pontypridd or Caerphilly!

 

[GospelOak117]

If a Pacer is sent down to Tenby and Pembroke Dock in holiday seasons, when there is a need for two coaches because of the numbe rof people travelling, you cna see they are very unsuitable for such a service!

There is notwhere to put the luggage that is associated with such a trip, which means that half the seats are taken up with bags. The toilet facilites are totally inadequate for the families who have often travelled long distances before getting on the Pacer in Swansea. The ride is horrendous, and I'm surprised that anyone ever uses a train again!

They aren't so bad space wise on a journey from Cardiff to Pontypridd or Caerphilly!

wow I didn't know the pacers ever made it west of Bridgend/Maesteg. Have you ever known them to make it up the HoW?

 

[387star]

Thought I would add my two pence.

Well, let's get the obvious out of the way: Pacers! Merseytravel refurbed 142s are just dire. I am not a fan of 150s either, especially the ones with the cramped 3-2 bay seating.



The Desiros are nice units but I wouldn't go as far to say "smooth, quiet, peaceful". They aren't that smooth at top speed. I'd rather not sit on one all day. Plus, there is always the risk Crewe-Euston ends up as a 350/2!

I am not keen on Voyagers - too small, XC versions look tatty e.t.c. Pendolinos I don't see a problem with - they are very nice in first class, not too bad in standard. The best standard seats are the ones in Quiet Coach nearest the cab - full window view and decent legroom. I particularly like using Pendos on short journeys like Wigan - Preston, much preferable to the Northern 150!

The Mark 3/4s are good but they won't go on forever.

Overall though, mainland European high speed trains completely outshine anything in the UK. The likes of TGVs and TALGO 350 offer a far superior experience to any Voyager. My personal favourite is the Siemens Velaro (DB ICE3, ICE3M and ICE-Tilting), very comfortable, fast, plenty of space even on the tilting version. very classy interiors (including bar/restaurant) and a front-lounge with forward view! Additionally, I am a huge fan of double decker EMUs and stock on regional services - the Dutch VIRMs are great, as well as the local hauled stock on German regional services.


I remember that thread: personally I think the 323s are EMUs with character! Unlike soulless desiros (see above).

Do double decker trains have stairs to ther first floor?? Thanks

Least favourite train: Voyager.
I am a fan of Southern region Desiros and Electrostars but the latter have an awful ride at times and the desiro seems quieter and more stable although that might be because southern electrostars encounter so many level crossings which causes them to bounce

 

[WestCoast]

Do double decker trains have stairs to ther first floor?? Thanks

It depends on the design - all models have stairs (no lifts e.t.c).

Some stock you enter on the bottom level and then go up the stairs to the top. More commonly though, you enter at a mid-level and then go down or up. There are some seats available on the mid-level for those who cannot use the stairs.

This dutch double decker demonstrates the mid-level :

However, some DB operated loco hauled double decker stock has a mid-level with a ramp down to the lower floor - I've only seen this on the newer Bombardier stock operating around Berlin.

 

[d5509]

DMUs were 50s train meets 50s bus - they kept quite a few rural services going - remember those gear changes. Pacers were 70s bus meets 70s high speed goods waggon, they have the look of East German "reko" 4-wheel thunder-box coaches, All in all, quite an iconic design. Wonder what you would get if you crossed a naughties bus with naughties train?

For me the worst are 150s because I find them claustrophobic, 317s come close second: I know BR's customer surveyors told us we don't need to look out of the window when we commute but I always found staring at the passing fields and trees very therapeutic.

 

[Class 466]

Sadly, i have to say that 465/466s are in the running, mostly the 466s which are useless on their own in a tiny bit of rain, wheel slip is terrible and also the 465/466s have a tendency to fail. The number of services per weekday that are cancelled or short formed is very high! So my vote is with the southeast notworkers

 

[Smudger105e]

Wonder what you would get if you crossed a naughties bus with naughties train?

A bendy train? A bit like a pacer with three axles, two on the main unit and the pair on the bendy bit being powered. I suppose you could put a bendy bit on both ends with a cab on. So come on, someone with photoshop skills mock up my vision of a double bendy-bus train :P

 

[Greenback]

wow I didn't know the pacers ever made it west of Bridgend/Maesteg. Have you ever known them to make it up the HoW?

No, never seen them on the HoW. It may have happened, but the only stock I have seen in the last decade are 150's and 153's.

To be fair, it is quite uncommon to see them on Pembroke Dock trains - but during one memorable week last year there was a Pacer every day on the line!

 

[yorksrob]

Well, I've commuted on Pacers for a few years, and whilst they're not the best, most of them (except the Merseyrail ones obviously) are decent enough as far as I'm concerned to get from a to b.

What really annoys me though, is when some pampered nitwit has the audacity to say that slammers such as VEP's were bad, when actually they were ideal. Plenty of leg room, easy to get in and out of, comfortable enough seats. If these people had to travel on a Pacer they would get a shock.

 

[Ivo]

wow I didn't know the pacers ever made it west of Bridgend/Maesteg. Have you ever known them to make it up the HoW?

Never been on the HoW, but I've never heard stories of them heading that way; invariably a 153 from what I've heard (and seen). I've had Pacer well beyond Bridgend several times; just look at my West of Wales thread and also 4SRKT's blog; two events that have turned me to the not-so-anti Pacer group! I won't go as far as to say they are among my favourites, as with 4SRKT and others, but they certainly beat a boring 150! 3+2 bus seating is a nuisance though; it is hardly suited to a train of any description...

Slammers were far better than most of what we have now. I am sad that unless I can get on the Chiltern Bubble I will never experience one in commercial service again (as of Wednesday and the NIR 80). Mind you, I did grow up with 302s, 310s and 312s...

As for the 139, it feels like a cheap one-car copy of a Pacer! I wonder what it would be like at speed?

 

[NXEA!]

I echo the comments about Pacer's. From an enthusiasts point of view they have a lot of character and appeal, and are one of the few 'fun' things to ride on the railways regularly. However, they are uncomfortable, squeal loudly, and are used on routes that are wholly unsuitable for them. I think in the future when the North does eventually get a new order of DMU's to replace the Sprinters and Pacer's, it might be worth thoroughly overhauling a small fleet to operate some of the shorter branch lines, and they would be very cheap and economical to run on these routes, plus they have a nice airy atmosphere which could be suitable for some of the more scenic branches. EMU wise I don't like the 378's. Great at what they do which is moving lots of people in the peak hour, quickly and reliably, but I find the seats extremely uncomfortable, and even though I realise the seating layout is the best for the type of work they do, I'd prefer 3+2, but in reality this wouldn't be of much use. All of the Intercity trains for me are really good at what they do and comfortable, and I do like the Voyagers personally, even if they are vastly too short, but if I had to choose, my vote would be with them. I like the NXEA Mark 3's and again I find them comfortable, but they are beginning to look tired now, and NX haven't given them much investment, it wasn't a particularly radical refurbishment programme anyway, and its been around 6 years ago since they were done, and they could with a thorough refurbishment IMO.

 

[YorkshireBear]

One that has not been mentioned is 185. Personally i think they roll too much, i often feel sick when travelling on them, especially on hope valley, and leeds york. Also the seats arnt fantastic.