TfL Off Peak Friday Travel

[NigelH]

TfL have announced that, for a trial period starting on 8th March, all Friday travel will be charged as off-peak. I am interested in travelling from Reading to Gatwick airport on a Friday in what would previously have been morning peak period. TfL's single fare finder quotes a fare for this journey of £21.10, compared to a normal peak time fare of £44 and a ticket price (from BRFares.com) of £54.80 for any permitted route, or £31.70 via Gomshall. If I travelled via Paddington and Farringdon (or Paddington and Victoria) and used contactless payment then it seems clear that the TfL fare would apply, but would that also be the case with the direct service via Gomshall, which goes outside the TfL fare area?

 

[Mike395]

No - the TfL fares structure isn't valid on the direct route, you'd need to buy a paper ticket (or travel via London).

 

[Starmill]

Unfortunately if you touch in at Gatwick Airport with contactless pay as you go, you could be charged a Penalty Fare if you're found on the train between Redhill and Reading. Your choice is therefore to travel via London Paddington, touching as needed, or buy the route Gomshall ticket for the through services.

 

[NigelH]

Thanks for the prompt replies; unfortunately, that was what I expected. It does seem a crazy system, though: if I remember correctly, it's possible to transfer between Thameslink and the Elizabeth Line at Farringdon without passing a ticket barrier, so it would be possible to travel all the way from Reading to Gatwick without any proof of having passed through London, and it seems to me plain stupid that paper tickets are a different price from contactless anyway. It's probably academic in my case, anyway: I have an advance ticket on the direct train I hope to catch, and if I miss it then it will almost certainly be quicker to go via London than take the next direct one.

 

[Starmill]

Thanks for the prompt replies; unfortunately, that was what I expected. It does seem a crazy system, though: if I remember correctly, it's possible to transfer between Thameslink and the Elizabeth Line at Farringdon without passing a ticket barrier, so it would be possible to travel all the way from Reading to Gatwick without any proof of having passed through London, and it seems to me plain stupid that paper tickets are a different price from contactless anyway. It's probably academic in my case, anyway: I have an advance ticket on the direct train I hope to catch, and if I miss it then it will almost certainly be quicker to go via London than take the next direct one.

You'd be charged the default fare if you used the direct train yes, although in this case it would appear there's only the default route and no other pay as you go options. That's not permitted though, and it is crazy that it's the way it works. Same for Feltham to Reading.

 

[boiledbeans2]

[...] It does seem a crazy system, though: if I remember correctly, it's possible to transfer between Thameslink and the Elizabeth Line at Farringdon without passing a ticket barrier, so it would be possible to travel all the way from Reading to Gatwick without any proof of having passed through London, [...]

From my experience on the North Downs Line (the Reading - Gatwick line), ticket checks are frequent, even at night. So it would be difficult to use contactless without getting caught.

 

[JonathanH]

it seems to me plain stupid that paper tickets are a different price from contactless anyway

The return fare from Reading to Gatwick is very much cheaper via Gomshall than London. It is just that Contactless is based on single leg pricing.

Where fares have been harmonised on a PAYG scale it has meant higher prices for many users and more restrictions.

if I remember correctly, it's possible to transfer between Thameslink and the Elizabeth Line at Farringdon without passing a ticket barrier, so it would be possible to travel all the way from Reading to Gatwick without any proof of having passed through London

Indeed, the interchange at Farringdon and lack of an internal gateline is a huge hole in the PAYG system for a number of different journeys on the PAYG system.

 

[Haywain]

Indeed, the interchange at Farringdon and lack of an internal gateline is a huge hole in the PAYG system for a number of different journeys on the PAYG system.

It's not much of a hole when the assumption is that journeys will by default pass through central London.

 

[miklcct]

It's not much of a hole when the assumption is that journeys will by default pass through central London.

but when Oval Phase 2 is rolled out, which covers the North Downs Line, the assumption will have to be a direct train by default - this is why journeys from Clapham Junction to Highbury & Islington are charged as a single-zone journey with the pass at Shoreditch High Street being undetectable.

When there are multiple reasonable routes, and one of them is a direct train, it is impossible to distinguish it from other routes unless the other routes have a gated interchange in between.

Journeys in the current network which have this loophole includes the like of West Brompton - Highbury & Islington, where a direct orbital train or going via Zone 1 can both be used.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed, the interchange at Farringdon and lack of an internal gateline is a huge hole in the PAYG system for a number of different journeys on the PAYG system.

There are absolutely loads of cases where that happens, from London Bridge between national rail operators, to Moorgate between all routes, to Bond Street between the Elizabeth line and LU lines, and so on so forth. All conceptually the same as Farringdon. In reality, it's handled easily by some journeys being charged as if they were via zone 1 even if they're not. The exceptions are really very minor. The prices for singles via Gomshall are actually higher than the cpay. Off Peak Returns would make a small saving.

 

[Wolfie]

but when Oval Phase 2 is rolled out, which covers the North Downs Line, the assumption will have to be a direct train by default - this is why journeys from Clapham Junction to Highbury & Islington are charged as a single-zone journey with the pass at Shoreditch High Street being undetectable.

When there are multiple reasonable routes, and one of them is a direct train, it is impossible to distinguish it from other routes unless the other routes have a gated interchange in between.

Journeys in the current network which have this loophole includes the like of West Brompton - Highbury & Islington, where a direct orbital train or going via Zone 1 can both be used.

Re your first para you forgot the direct Overground service via Willesden Junction between Clapham Junction and Highbury and Islington.

 

[miklcct]

Re your first para you forgot the direct Overground service via Willesden Junction between Clapham Junction and Highbury and Islington.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is no way for the system to detect the additional zones without passing through barriers, if there exists a cheaper direct train.

 

[Wolfie]

The point I'm trying to make is that there is no way for the system to detect the additional zones without passing through barriers, if there exists a cheaper direct train.

That l agree.

 

[Tetchytyke]

but when Oval Phase 2 is rolled out, which covers the North Downs Line, the assumption will have to be a direct train by default

I’m sure that, in that case, it will simply result in the removal of the cheaper ‘via Gomshall’ fare on PAYG.

 

[mangyiscute]

its very unlikely the paper ticket fares will be removed, in which case all that is happening is the customer is getting more choice.
This is what has happened with Reading to London fares - as someone with a railcard, sometimes its cheaper to buy a paper ticket, sometimes its cheaper to use contactless, but having that option is great since I can always choose the cheaper option.

 

[JonathanH]

This is what has happened with Reading to London fares - as someone with a railcard, sometimes its cheaper to buy a paper ticket, sometimes its cheaper to use contactless, but having that option is great since I can always choose the cheaper option.

It is what happened with Reading to London fares as the 'paper' structure was not amended to align with the Contactless structure. In the Project Oval area, there has been a greater attempt to align 'paper' and Contactless fares, including the removal of some routeing options.

As we know the Contactless option is heavily delayed on those routes, and, in particular, the users in the Project Oval area can't benefit from the Friday off-peak extension yet.

 

[NigelH]

Indeed, the interchange at Farringdon and lack of an internal gateline is a huge hole in the PAYG system for a number of different journeys on the PAYG system.

As it happens, I returned via London. I passed a yellow card reader at Farringdon with a sign advising people to tap their card to be charged the correct fare, but no barriers; a bit like the pink ones that are at certain stations, it seems.

 

[Hadders]

As it happens, I returned via London. I passed a yellow card reader at Farringdon with a sign advising people to tap their card to be charged the correct fare, but no barriers; a bit like the pink ones that are at certain stations, it seems.

The validators at Farringdon at the top of the Elizabeth Line escalators (and on the Underground platforms) are not like pink readers.

They should only be used when switching from a traditional ticket to Oyster/contactless at Farringdon. Touching them mid-Oyster/contactless journey could have unintended consequences if your card is inspected after the tap at Farringdon.

 

[Watershed]

The validators at Farringdon at the top of the Elizabeth Line escalators (and on the Underground platforms) are not like pink readers.

They should only be used when switching from a traditional ticket to Oyster/contactless at Farringdon. Touching them mid-Oyster/contactless journey could have unintended consequences if your card is inspected after the tap at Farringdon.

I think they're set to continuation exit in recognition of the fact that people may incorrectly touch their card or device there when not needed.

 

[Hadders]

I think they're set to continuation exit in recognition of the fact that people may incorrectly touch their card or device there when not needed.

I believe that’s correct but we’ve seen issues in the past where, if you’re using Oyster PAYG and touch the validator mid-way through your journey and are then inspected onboard you shows you’re not touched-in.

ISTR @MikeWh intervening in at least one case in the past.

 

[MikeWh]

ISTR @MikeWh intervening in at least one case in the past.

Yes, I did. It was at Kentish Town (before the current closure). The penalty fare was rescinded on appeal once I explained exactly how the system worked.

 

[JonathanH]

TfL recently had a trial for off peak fares all day on Fridays.

I wonder if it produced a net increase in revenue (more journeys at lower fares) vs normal Fridays ?

Seemingly it had little effect.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...ound-tfl-london-commuters-mayor-b1166772.html

Sadiq Khan's £24million off-peak Friday fares trial had little impact, data suggests

Fridays covered by the trial saw only a three per cent rise in Tube journeys

NOAH VICKERS
SIMON HUNT, BUSINESS & TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT @SIMONPETERHUNT
18 HOURS AGO

Sadiq Khan has been criticised after data appeared to show that his £24million scheme to encourage Londoners back into the office on Fridays - and boost the capital’s economy - had a “negligible” impact.

The mayor launched his ‘off-peak Fridays’ trial earlier this year to entice people back into central London, by abolishing rush hour peak Tube and rail fares at the end of each working week.

The rise in Londoners working from home - particularly in the aftermath of the pandemic - has meant Fridays in the city centre are quieter than they were before Covid.

The scheme ran on Fridays for a period of 13 weeks, starting on March 8 and concluding on May 31.

The trial was advertised to Londoners across the Tube network, with several discount offers on restaurants and attractions also promoted to tie in with the scheme.

But Tube ridership data shows that the scheme appears to have resulted in only a three per cent increase in ridership.

Roughly 40.6 million Underground journeys were made on Fridays during the trial period - excluding Good Friday, when all fares were off-peak anyway due to it being a bank holiday.

Ridership during the same set of Fridays in 2023 was only slightly lower, at about 39.4 million journeys - again excluding Good Friday.

The figures, available on Transport for London’s (TfL) website, only cover Tube journeys and do not include ridership on the Elizabeth line, Overground, DLR and London’s national rail services, all of which were also part of the trial.

TfL said in its finance report earlier this month that total journeys across all its services are up just over 6 per cent compared to last year, meaning that the 3 per cent rise on the Tube on Fridays may have largely happened without the trial.

National rail strikes also appear to have reduced ridership levels on two of the relevant Fridays in 2023.

Keith Prince, City Hall Conservatives’ transport spokesman, said: “The mayor’s latest TfL experiment was nothing but an expensive election bribe. Off-peak Fridays will end up costing the taxpayer an estimated £24million, despite having a negligible impact on passenger numbers.

“Whilst we all want the Tube to be as cheap as possible, the £24million which Sadiq Khan ‘spent’ on Off Peak Fridays could have been better put to use funding new zero-emissions buses, or helping sort out the problems on the Central Line, or procuring desperately needed new rolling stock on Croydon’s tram network.”

A TfL spokeswoman said in response: “We continue to analyse the impact of our trial of off-peak pay as you go fares on Tube and rail services on a Friday, which ended on 31 May 2024.

“This analysis will take into account a number of aspects including assessing changes to both morning peak ridership and overall daily ridership, as well as the impact to businesses across London.”

TfL points out that the publicly-available figures only show total ridership each day, making it less useful for assessing any specific journey increases during the rush hour periods covered by the trial. The authority also notes that ridership is always changeable around bank holidays, the Easter period and school holidays in April and May.

The £24million of funding to support the trial was “used to offset the difference in revenue shortfall” created by the scheme, the mayor’s office said at the time it was signed off. City Hall sources have previously rejected suggestions that the mayor “squirrelled away” money in order to spend it just prior to his re-election bid, calling the accusation “complete nonsense”.

A date has not yet been publicly set for when TfL will publish its own comprehensive analysis of the trial’s impact.

Speaking at the State of London Debate last week, the mayor said: “The pre-election period has slowed things down a bit, but I’d hope that in the next couple of months, we’ll have the results of the off-peak trial.”

Mr Khan has also said that boosting footfall to workplaces and businesses on Fridays is an issue cities across the world are grappling with, and that the results of London’s trial will be closely watched by politicians and transport officials across the globe.

 

[redreni]

Seemingly it had little effect.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...ound-tfl-london-commuters-mayor-b1166772.html

I took advantage of the trial. The savings were quite considerable in percentage terms (£9.90 rather than the daily cap of £12.30 if I took my usual route, or £10 to take a marginally faster route via Slade Green station which would be capped at £15.60 normally).

I couldn't believe how quiet the trains were on Fridays, though. Still very much quieter than the other weekdays.

A lot of people have a fixed agreement with their employer regarding working and non-working days, so I'm probably a bit unusual in having been able to change my behaviour slightly in order to take advantage of the trial.

I assume it won't be repeated. I also assume the timings of the trial and the Mayoral election must have been a coincidence.

 

[JonathanH]

I assume it won't be repeated. I also assume the timings of the trial and the Mayoral election must have been a coincidence.

The article from the Standard appears to be "mayor bashing" and suggesting that it was a waste of money, but clearly some people did get cheaper journeys as a result. However, changing behaviour in any big way is probably a lost cause.

 

[miklcct]

I took advantage of the trial. The savings were quite considerable in percentage terms (£9.90 rather than the daily cap of £12.30 if I took my usual route, or £10 to take a marginally faster route via Slade Green station which would be capped at £15.60 normally).

I couldn't believe how quiet the trains were on Fridays, though. Still very much quieter than the other weekdays.

A lot of people have a fixed agreement with their employer regarding working and non-working days, so I'm probably a bit unusual in having been able to change my behaviour slightly in order to take advantage of the trial.

I assume it won't be repeated. I also assume the timings of the trial and the Mayoral election must have been a coincidence.

There was no advantage to me unfortunately because I had a season Travelcard, although if it is made permanent I will then never buy an annual Travelcard again.

 

[Wolfie]

The article from the Standard appears to be "mayor bashing" and suggesting that it was a waste of money, but clearly some people did get cheaper journeys as a result. However, changing behaviour in any big way is probably a lost cause.

It was a trial. The nature of the beast is that some things trialed will work and some won't. If the outcome was already known there would be no need for the trial!

 

[Starmill]

It was a trial. The nature of the beast is that some things trialed will work and some won't. If the outcome was already known there would be no need for the trial!

Inevitably the people directing criticisms on the grounds of "a waste of money" would instead be criticising the Mayor for "inaction in the face of a cost of living crisis" had the trial not taken place.

More detailed results that might investigate when people travelled, how it affected the non-LU services, and how much overall capacity was in use (including the other modes that weren't affected) will I hope be part of what TfL calls further analysis.

 

[Wolfie]

Inevitably the people directing criticisms on the grounds of "a waste of money" would instead be criticising the Mayor for "inaction in the face of a cost of living crisis" had the trial not taken place.

More detailed results that might investigate when people travelled, how it affected the non-LU services, and how much overall capacity was in use (including the other modes that weren't affected) will I hope be part of what TfL calls further analysis.

That post is the sort of thing that calls out for a 'like' option. Spot on sir.

 

[infobleep]

The article from the Standard appears to be "mayor bashing" and suggesting that it was a waste of money, but clearly some people did get cheaper journeys as a result. However, changing behaviour in any big way is probably a lost cause.

As I live outside of London, if I worked in central London, not sure how much I might have saved, other than cheaper fares once I reached Clapham Junction.

More broadly though, reducing costs can change behaviours, for those who can make use of them.

A good example is the £2 bus fare. When I go from Guildford to Kingston upon Thames now, I get the 715 at 07:05 and a return bus after 18:00. Previously I might not have travel by train to Surbtion until after 09:30 or just gone in for the afternoon, travelling on a train at 13:04.

 

[miklcct]

As I live outside of London, if I worked in central London, not sure how much I might have saved, other than cheaper fares once I reached Clapham Junction.

More broadly though, reducing costs can change behaviours, for those who can make use of them.

A good example is the £2 bus fare. When I go from Guildford to Kingston upon Thames now, I get the 715 at 07:05 and a return bus after 18:00. Previously I might not have travel by train to Surbtion until after 09:30 or just gone in for the afternoon, travelling on a train at 13:04.

The £2 bus fare scheme has definitely helped me to consider buses for more long-distance journeys which are too far to cycle. Without it I may not even consider making such journeys at all.