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A discussion about falling birth rates in various parts of the world

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DustyBin

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Long term the demographics for both nations is not good. They never really recovered from WW2 either. They really need immigration like Europe is seeing but lets be honest, those two countries are much less desirable to live in.

mods note - split from the Ukraine thread

Without wishing to divert the thread(!), what they (and the rest of Europe) need to do is address the underlying cause(s) of falling birth rates.
 
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uglymonkey

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Presumably the falling birthrates are caused by the baby boom babies after the troops came home from WW2 and the population rates adjusting back to more "normal" levels? Hopefully a war of that scale will not happen again, But I do remember as a child my grandmother talking about a lot of her friends who remained single ( Maiden Aunt) etc after WW1, as all the eligible men in their age group had been slaughtered earlier on the Somme and other places.
 

edwin_m

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In Russia and more so in Ukraine, a proportion of the limited number of men (and sometimes women) who might be starting a family will be killed or disabled, so this war perpetuates the existing population deficit for another generation.
 

JamesT

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Presumably the falling birthrates are caused by the baby boom babies after the troops came home from WW2 and the population rates adjusting back to more "normal" levels? Hopefully a war of that scale will not happen again, But I do remember as a child my grandmother talking about a lot of her friends who remained single ( Maiden Aunt) etc after WW1, as all the eligible men in their age group had been slaughtered earlier on the Somme and other places.
We’re a long way past any effects of the post war baby boom. In general, birth rates in Western countries have been falling for decades. It has been observed that this correlates highly with the level of education in women. You may draw your own conclusions as to policies that might then reverse that trend…
 

simonw

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Without wishing to divert the thread(!), what they (and the rest of Europe) need to do is address the underlying cause(s) of falling birth rates.
Causes such as birth control, better education for women, more equality for women in society generally and the work place specifically.

Not sure in what way these need to be 'addressed'.
 

najaB

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Causes such as birth control, better education for women, more equality for women in society generally and the work place specifically.

Not sure in what way these need to be 'addressed'.
Indeed. Falling birthrates are, in the long term, a good thing. There are very few upsides to a constantly increasing population - either for a single country or globally.

That said, there is probably a lot that could be done to even out population distribution in geographic terms: there are enough people in the global South to more than make up for declining population in more Northern countries.
 

DustyBin

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Causes such as birth control, better education for women, more equality for women in society generally and the work place specifically.

Not sure in what way these need to be 'addressed'.

No, not those causes funnily enough!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Indeed. All good things imho.

Agreed.
 
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simonw

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No, not those causes funnily enough!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Agreed.
Well, given that world wide those are the major causes of declining birthrates, perhaps you'd be good enough to identify the ones you think need addressing.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Indeed. Falling birthrates are, in the long term, a good thing. There are very few upsides to a constantly increasing population - either for a single country or globally.
Agreed.

There's far too many people on the planet as it is.

...and one factor in CO2 output that I never see mentioned anywhere is how much CO2 people breathe out; it may not sound much at a bit over 1kg per person per day, but when you consider how quickly we have been adding every extra billion people in the last 40 =- 50 years... well, I will let you do the maths...
 

Magdalia

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We’re a long way past any effects of the post war baby boom.
This is not correct. In most of Europe the baby boom did not follow immediately after World War II, but came a long while after because of post-war austerity. In many European countries the baby boom starts midway through the 1950s and then extends through the 1960s. Nearly all of these people are still alive, though lots of them are already in or approaching retirement. They need a working population coming along behind them to keep them in the style to which they are accustomed.

In Russia and more so in Ukraine, a proportion of the limited number of men (and sometimes women) who might be starting a family will be killed or disabled, so this war perpetuates the existing population deficit for another generation.
Before the war started both Russia and Ukraine already had significant problems with low fertility rates and declining populations. These go back more than 30 years.
In general, birth rates in Western countries have been falling for decades.
This applies to large parts of Asia too, where there are some very very low fertility rates, especially South Korea. The only continent where population is still rising rapidly is Africa.

Falling birthrates are, in the long term, a good thing.
Be careful what you wish for. Fertility rates are already dangerously low in many countries, and, if not addressed, will lead to rapidly declining populations. Russia and Ukraine are examples of that already happening. Global population is only rising because of what is happening in Africa, and it is only in Africa where reducing fertility rates is important. Once fertility rates in Africa decline, and the baby boomers die off, global population will go into decline. That will be some time in the later half of this century.


That said, there is probably a lot that could be done to even out population distribution in geographic terms: there are enough people in the global South to more than make up for declining population in more Northern countries.
In the meantime, migration, especially from Africa, would help to smooth the geographic and age distributions. However this works much better for multicultural societies than for monocultural societies.
 

DustyBin

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Well, given that world wide those are the major causes of declining birthrates, perhaps you'd be good enough to identify the ones you think need addressing.

Very broadly, the decline of “family values” and the economic downsides that put some people off starting a family.

I should caveat the above by pointing out that these factors alone clearly aren’t the sole drivers, and I’m looking at it from a European/high income country perspective. They are however issues that could, and in my opinion should, be addressed.
 

najaB

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Be careful what you wish for. Fertility rates are already dangerously low in many countries, and, if not addressed, will lead to rapidly declining populations. Russia and Ukraine are examples of that already happening. Global population is only rising because of what is happening in Africa, and it is only in Africa where reducing fertility rates is important. Once fertility rates in Africa decline, and the baby boomers die off, global population will go into decline. That will be some time in the later half of this century.
Hence why the "in the long term" is doing some heavy lifting. There's a demographic hump that the world needs to get past, but ideally the total human population will slowly decline to something like 5 billion or so at some point next century. It's worth keeping in mind that this isn't a crazy idea, that's approximately the size of the human population thirty years ago.
Very broadly, the decline of “family values” and the economic downsides that put some people off starting a family.
How far back are we going with those "family values"? Would that include things like stoning your daughter to death if she dares to have sex before marriage?
 

Magdalia

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Very broadly, the decline of “family values” and the economic downsides that put some people off starting a family.
Elsewhere on this forum there is a discussion about location of new towns. In the UK the housing crisis is the most significant barrier to people starting a family.

10-15 years ago, when I lived in a house, "next door" changed hands and was bought by a young recently married couple. The first year was like watching birds building a nest. Their children are probably now in their teens. Now, lots of couples who might like to have children have no prospect of finding a nesting site.
 

DustyBin

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Elsewhere on this forum there is a discussion about location of new towns. In the UK the housing crisis is the most significant barrier to people starting a family.

10-15 years ago, when I lived in a house, "next door" changed hands and was bought by a young recently married couple. The first year was like watching birds building a nest. Their children are probably now in their teens. Now, lots of couples who might like to have children have no prospect of finding a nesting site.

You make a good point!
 

AlterEgo

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How many people here have kids, or at least want to have them if they don’t already?
 

PTR 444

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Ideally, we need to be aspiring to maintain a sustainable population level in the long term, with no major peaks and troughs. The baby boom is the elephant in the room as to sustain that generation, you need each of the next generations to be bigger than the previous. If our planet could somehow expand in physical size, this would be okay, but it can't and thus we are limited in habitable land and resources which will eventually run out.

I would support a very gradual population decline since automation can supplement some aspects of the workforce, but not a rapid decline which would likely overwhelm the larger, ageing generations.
 

DynamicSpirit

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The baby boom is the elephant in the room as to sustain that generation, you need each of the next generations to be bigger than the previous.

What's the reasoning behind that? That doesn't seem at all obvious to me?

I would expect that the issue is, whether standard living that we collectively decide as a nation we want to have can be sustained from the wealth generated by the proportion of the population who are actually working. Provided that's the case, then in order to keep that income long term, you simply need each generation to be the same size as the previous generation. If the proportion of the population working isn't sufficient to do that, then you have a problem - but one whose answer probably lies in economics rather than population size.
 

najaB

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I would expect that the issue is, whether standard living that we collectively decide as a nation we want to have can be sustained from the wealth generated by the proportion of the population who are actually working. Provided that's the case, then in order to keep that income long term, you simply need each generation to be the same size as the previous generation.
I suppose, technically, we need each generation to be as productive as the previous rather than necessarily the same size. Continued advances in automation mean that should be possible. To be honest, it probably should have been the approach taken from the early 20th century since the massive increases in average productivity have been negated by substantial increase in populations (recent declines not withstanding).
 

najaB

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How many people here have kids, or at least want to have them if they don’t already?
I have two bothers who have seven between them, so my parent's genes have been successfully passed on. No need for me to get involved!
 

3141

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I suppose, technically, we need each generation to be as productive as the previous rather than necessarily the same size. Continued advances in automation mean that should be possible. To be honest, it probably should have been the approach taken from the early 20th century since the massive increases in average productivity have been negated by substantial increase in populations (recent declines not withstanding).
That's an interesting idea. But do they need to be more productive still, to meet the costs of ageing populations who remain alive as a result of steady medical advances? And in the case of medical care, for example, there must be a limit to how much human care which the (currently) increasing numbers of increasingly older people need can be provided by greater productivity alone. So we find ourselves coming back to the need for immigrant health professionals. Or perhaps apparently "human" care will instead be provided by artificial intelligence. Both of those approaches will encounter resistance from various quarters.
 

Zamracene749

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Agreed.

There's far too many people on the planet as it is.

...and one factor in CO2 output that I never see mentioned anywhere is how much CO2 people breathe out; it may not sound much at a bit over 1kg per person per day, but when you consider how quickly we have been adding every extra billion people in the last 40 =- 50 years... well, I will let you do the maths...
Doing the maths :) We don't breathe in carbon(other than the small percentage already in air, and that comes straight back out). Any extra carbon we breathe out had to be ingested as food. To get into that food, the carbon was absorbed as CO2 through photosynthesis either by the plant we are eating or the unwilling protein donor that ate the plant first. This science might be absolute poop (which contains around 45 percent carbon by weight) but perhaps we, as an organism, are carbon neutral?
 

eldomtom2

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It's worth keeping in mind that this isn't a crazy idea, that's approximately the size of the human population thirty years ago.
The problem is that the age distribution of the population thirty years ago was very different. The problem with below-replacement birth rates isn't a decline in the total number of people, it's that there'll be more and more old people with less and less young people to look after them.
 

DynamicSpirit

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but perhaps we, as an organism, are carbon neutral?

Correct. On a timescale of a couple of years, our bodies are roughly carbon-neutral because all the CO2 we breathe out will have been taken from the atmosphere at most a couple of years ago - and therefore that doesn't increase the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. The problem with burning fossil fuels is that releases into the atmosphere carbon that has been buried for millions of years - so that very definitely does increase the level of CO2 in the atmosphere.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I suppose, technically, we need each generation to be as productive as the previous rather than necessarily the same size. Continued advances in automation mean that should be possible. To be honest, it probably should have been the approach taken from the early 20th century since the massive increases in average productivity have been negated by substantial increase in populations (recent declines not withstanding).

I'm not sure what you mean with the bit I've bolded. Total production = productivity per person * number of people working, so increases in population should be neutral as far as standard of living is concerned as long as productivity per person remains constant.

Besides, the actual standard of living has risen massively since the early 20th century, so it certainly doesn't seem that anything is negating the productivity improvements since then :)
 
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najaB

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I'm not sure what you mean with the bit I've bolded. Total production = productivity per person * number of people working, so increases in population should be neutral as far as standard of living is concerned as long as productivity per person remains constant.

Besides, the actual standard of living has risen massively since the early 20th century, so it certainly doesn't seem that anything is negating the productivity improvements since then :)
Wish I mean is that improvements in technology and automation mean that a worker today is easily twenty times more productive than they would have been in the 1800s.

Which means that, were we still supporting the two billion or so people who were alive in 1900 were could all live like kings.

However, we're what, ten billion and counting? Which means that many in the global South live lives that aren't massively better than they were a century ago, despite consuming more resources, just through sheer numbers of mouths to feed.
 

Cross City

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Real terms wage cuts and the massive growth in housing cost have done for birthrates certainly in the UK and most of western Europe.

Long gone are the days where you could buy a house for the cost of a packet of Quavers and run it on the single income of somebody working in a shop or factory.

How can people expected to be having children when houses cost a massive slice of a dual income couples wages?
 
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