Expansion of LNER 70-min flex trial area ("Simpler Fares")

[Bletchleyite]

It's interesting how it's going in the opposite direction to other parts of the industry. I cocked up the dates when I made a TPE Advance booking last month and was able to amend it for free. Much more customer-friendly in an industry that is increasingly reliant on leisure passengers.

Trainline let you refund anything up to 15 minutes after sale provided it hasn't been scanned. It's fairly customer friendly but is probably just done to save their customer service staff time arguing about it when people have just made a mistake.

It's a bit off topic, for which I apologise - but I notice in this thread that people have suggestions for workarounds.... Can anyone tell me if there is a workaround from Leeds to kings cross - I often get passengers asking me for a return ticket (super off peak return, etc) who are confused, and upset, by the fact that such a simple, easy to understand ticket, isn't available.

I know it's not specifically linked to this '70 min flex' aberration, but thought it worth an ask?

Thanks

The trial doesn't apply to Leeds. Just buy two Super Off Peak Singles, one in each direction, that's exactly the same thing as a day return (give or take that you can use them the other way round if you want).

 

[Tetchytyke]

rainline let you refund anything up to 15 minutes after sale provided it hasn't been scanned. It's fairly customer friendly but is probably just done to save their customer service staff time arguing about it when people have just made a mistake.

I only noticed my mistake several days later and the amendment fee was still £0. As the train I'd meant to book wasn't any more expensive, it meant it cost me £0 to amend my ticket.

On the other hand, and as yet another example of their nickel-and-dime attitude, LNER still charge the tenner admin fee.

 

[jamiearmley]

The trial doesn't apply to Leeds. Just buy two Super Off Peak Singles, one in each direction, that's exactly the same thing as a day return (give or take that you can use them the other way round if you want).

Yeah, I know the trial hasn't got to us yet, thankfully!!

And yes, that's what I tell them...

Many still don't like it though. There's a ingrained mindset that a return is cheaper than 2 singles, ( not in this case, as we know) - and a further disadvantage in that delay repay on a return is better for a long delay than for a single each way.

In any event, I'm a big advocate of giving passengers what they want, rather than what the industry says they ought to have.

I've played around with most of the local stations , and only wondered if anyone knew of one that LNER have missed...

 

[Bletchleyite]

In any event, I'm a big advocate of giving passengers what they want, rather than what the industry says they ought to have.

Oh, certainly, down here on the south WCML we have single fare pricing but there are still day returns, just at twice the single, for those who want one. For weekday travel I'd still recommend two singles as if you need to excess the return to Anytime it's cheaper (or just don't buy the return until you need it, which is what I usually do), but you can still have a return if you prefer that.

The main reason for moving away from returns was to stop people using the return half of an off peak return as a de-facto season ticket until caught, though, possibly with a smattering of LNER not liking people having tickets without reservations so they can't block sale on a given day.

 

[Haywain]

I've played around with most of the local stations , and only wondered if anyone knew of one that LNER have missed...

You'd have to find something not priced by LNER, and that won't be easy.

 

[Failed Unit]

There is a good example of exactly why they have done it.

Look on Thursday 22nd August on 1000 London Kings Cross - Edinburgh

London - Edinburgh Waveley - Cheapest fare £199.60 (Anytime)
London - Edinburgh Haymarket - Cheapest fare £91.20 (Super off-peak)

I suspect all reservations are gone of this service, so you are risking standing the entire journey as seats requiring reservations are offered. But it was removed that annoying (to LNER) way that passengers can still travel on a full train.

 

[RailWonderer]

I suspect all reservations are gone of this service, so you are risking standing the entire journey as seats requiring reservations are offered. But it was removed that annoying (to LNER) way that passengers can still travel on a full train.

Boarding well in advance and heading to coach C is always your best bet.

The main reason for moving away from returns was to stop people using the return half of an off peak return as a de-facto season ticket until caught, though, possibly with a smattering of LNER not liking people having tickets without reservations so they can't block sale on a given day.

Is this the open return? So people keep the return for the week it is valid if there are no barriers at their destination and in case of inspection a guard stamps or scribbles on it and they have to throw it away, is that what you mean?

 

[nwales58]

I often get passengers asking me for a return ticket (super off peak return, etc) who are confused, and upset, by the fact that such a simple, easy to understand ticket, isn't available.

Needs massive publicity to change everyones thinking: forget all about return tickets, buy each single as you head to, or at, the station.

(and be grateful for how much you are reducing subsidy by paying more for your journey)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this the open return? So people keep the return for the week it is valid if there are no barriers at their destination and in case of inspection a guard stamps or scribbles on it and they have to throw it away, is that what you mean?

Yes, that's endemic (though less feasible with more gatelines in use) and is why short distance ones are very rarely offered.

 

[MrJeeves]

On the other hand, and as yet another example of their nickel-and-dime attitude, LNER still charge the tenner admin fee.

Amusing when the ticket terms shown on their website (incorrectly) state a max of £5...

The difference between the price paid and cost of the next suitable fare for the journey is payable. An administration fee of no more than £5 may be charged per ticket for each change to a journey. If customers change to a train on which a cheaper fare is available, the difference will not be refunded.

 

[Trainbike46]

Thanks. Surprised it took them so long to do that as the well known workarounds will be playing havoc with the actual trial data. Indeed, surprised they didn't do that to start with, and include any station that takes fares from those too, to avoid those being used as workarounds (as there will still be other ones to use).

Also surprised Stevenage and Peterborough isn't included as destinations. Much as I'm opposed to the idea of it, if you want viable trial data on how many it puts off you really need it to be the only option without too many obvious workarounds.

From the other thread:



Watch as Messrs Trainline & Co laugh all the way to the bank as their splitting engine offers massive "discounts" vs booking with the TOC direct!

(Yes, I know, so do other splitting engines, and probably better too, but Trainline is so widely used by the public. You can also now avoid the fees by using a white label site/app because these now include the splitting functionality - or at least the WMT and Northern apps do).

tbh if your "trial" is something so many people want to avoid that people finding work-arounds messes up your data, that in itself is kind of data suggesting it doesn't really work, doesn't it?

 

[Hadders]

Technically an increase in the cap, as they haven't yet found a reason to remove the Anytime Single, although I do wonder why not.

The Anytime Single isn’t a cap - they can increase the price of it as they see fit (and have done so over the years).

Regulated Fares, while not perfect, at least prevent greedy train companies from increasing fares exponentially. Unfortunately, the Government owing LNER has resulted in the little fares protection we had being removed.

That's the direction in most countries, sadly

The issue we have is that in many cases the ‘inter-city’ operator is also the local service. Eg Newark to Retford, Didcot to Swindon, Wigan to Warrington. If this gets rolled out across the inter-city operators, which I fear it will, I dread to think what will happen to fares and flexibility on some short distance journeys.

 

[Krokodil]

but the problem is that trains (particularly the ECML) were expensive already, and most people don't care about flexibility on a journey that long. So the headlines won't work - "trains you already can't afford have got more expensive".

The effect on the Advance prices is relevant to many though pretty much everything for sale next Saturday is more expensive than the Super Off Peak ticket which was valid on any weekend train. Unfortunately it needs a journalist with something between the ears to understand what's going on and put it into a format the public will understand. There aren't many decent journalists left any more. It's the sort of thing more suited to a Dispatches programme or the likes of Martin Lewis.

and a further disadvantage in that delay repay on a return is better for a long delay than for a single each way.

Yep, another way that passengers are being fleeced. I wonder how it wouod stand up if someone had a good lawyer though.

Is this the open return? So people keep the return for the week it is valid if there are no barriers at their destination and in case of inspection a guard stamps or scribbles on it and they have to throw it away, is that what you mean?

There are people who retain used (but unmarked) open returns and attempt to reuse them. I catch loads, which is why scanning tickets is so important.

 

[MrJeeves]

which is why scanning tickets is so important.

And looking at what the scanned information shows you!

 

[Krokodil]

And looking at what the scanned information shows you!

With tickets bought online, even if five guards just scan without looking properly, the evidence trail is laid for when the sixth one spots and reports it.

 

[yorksrob]

First the Scotrail off-peak trial gets binned off, now this turd floats back to the top of the cesspool.

The new Government could really do with knocking this on the head quickly.

 

[Hadders]

The new Government could really do with knocking this on the head quickly.

Whatever the Government might say they want this to happen as it increases the fares revenue.

 

[Trainbike46]

More likely GBR will adopt it nationally. Effectively compulsory reservations and market pricing for IC, contactless for regional within specified zones.

That will depend on what mission the new BR will be given by government

Personally, I would like to see it being given targets to increase passenger numbers and rail market share - and this trial is likely to achieve the exact opposite of growing passenger numbers

 

[richardderby]

It's a bit off topic, for which I apologise - but I notice in this thread that people have suggestions for workarounds.... Can anyone tell me if there is a workaround from Leeds to kings cross - I often get passengers asking me for a return ticket (super off peak return, etc) who are confused, and upset, by the fact that such a simple, easy to understand ticket, isn't available.

I know it's not specifically linked to this '70 min flex' aberration, but thought it worth an ask?

Thanks

an off peak return to/from Burnley Barracks (£116.50) is valid to or from Kings Cross or Euston, and priced by Avanti so Cheaper.

 

[yorksrob]

Whatever the Government might say they want this to happen as it increases the fares revenue.

If it persists on this course, it will quickly lose credibility amongst the travelling public. Fares are the priority concern of passengers and changing the management structure won't hide that.

That will depend on what mission the new BR will be given by government

Personally, I would like to see it being given targets to increase passenger numbers and rail market share - and this trial is likely to achieve the exact opposite of growing passenger numbers

Growing the business is the best way. It all depends on the incentives given to a nationalised industry.

The government has to choose whether to continue the failed methodology of its predecessor (i.e. driving passengers off) or growing the business.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally, I would like to see it being given targets to increase passenger numbers and rail market share - and this trial is likely to achieve the exact opposite of growing passenger numbers

Yes, true, the basis of it is essentially increasing revenue with no added capacity, which is the present situation as it applies to Kings Cross-Edinburgh - the trains are already full so you can't add any more people.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Look on Thursday 22nd August on 1000 London Kings Cross - Edinburgh

London - Edinburgh Waveley - Cheapest fare £199.60 (Anytime)
London - Edinburgh Haymarket - Cheapest fare £91.20 (Super off-peak)

The 70-minute flex for the 1100 costs £116.80, which would be valid on the 1000.

And that's the real reason why they've done it and it's the real reason why they've extended the affected area.

And also to prove how difficult it may be for LNER to clamp down on all the loopholes, a super off peak single on the 1000 with a destination of Aberdeen is £110.30.

Maybe that's the sorts of examples the press need to go after. The "trial" means it's six quid cheaper to travel from London to Aberdeen with a walk-up ticket than it is on the exact same train from London to Edinburgh Waverley with a semi-flexible ticket.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, true, the basis of it is essentially increasing revenue with no added capacity, which is the present situation as it applies to Kings Cross-Edinburgh - the trains are already full so you can't add any more people.

How many of those trains are full length though.

Also I'm not convinced they are all full. I see plenty go by the York Tap that aren't.

 

[stevieinselby]

Thanks. Surprised it took them so long to do that as the well known workarounds will be playing havoc with the actual trial data. Indeed, surprised they didn't do that to start with, and include any station that takes fares from those too, to avoid those being used as workarounds (as there will still be other ones to use).

Also surprised Stevenage and Peterborough isn't included as destinations. Much as I'm opposed to the idea of it, if you want viable trial data on how many it puts off you really need it to be the only option without too many obvious workarounds.

Clapham Junction still appears to be a valid workaround, although is a few quid more than from Kings Cross as it includes cross-London.

The fact that people are finding workarounds should be enough to tell them that the trial is proving wildly unpopular with the public.
It depends, if all they are interested in is how much they can bilk passengers for before they abandon the train altogether then sure, close the loopholes and watch your ridership dry up like the Aral Sea.

There's a piece in Modern Railways (Sept, p15) where the LNER MD says that the "simpler fares" trial had been positive, with no downsides.

Well that's an absolute, flat-out and demonstrably provable lie.
The fact that enough people are using the loopholes that they feel the need to close them is clear and incontrovertible proof that he is lying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many of those trains are full length though.

To Edinburgh it's near enough all of them. The 5s are generally to destinations short of Edinburgh.

Aside from Lumo, but you know my opinion of them already I'm sure.

 

[DanNCL]

This cowboy outfit needs to go. Only solution to the mess that is LNER now is a complete clear out of management and a back to basics program with customer service and fares.

They’re even making Avanti look good now which is quite some achievement.

 

[redreni]

Whatever the Government might say they want this to happen as it increases the fares revenue.

Increases in the rate of income tax also raise revenue, but that doesn't mean governments necessarily feel they get away with doing it. Certainly not to anything like the extent these fares are being increased. Which is presumably why they're doing their level best to obscure exactly what is being done here, as well as the fact they are behind it.

It's important that the public understands the people doing this are elected and can be voted out. I'm not sure that is widely understood.

 

[yorksrob]

Well that's an absolute, flat-out and demonstrably provable lie.
The fact that enough people are using the loopholes that they feel the need to close them is clear and incontrovertible proof that he is lying.

I look forward to reading that - for a laugh.

One would hope that MR ask some searching questions - moreso than the last time they covered this anyway.

 

[Watershed]

Yeah, I know the trial hasn't got to us yet, thankfully!!

And yes, that's what I tell them...

Many still don't like it though. There's a ingrained mindset that a return is cheaper than 2 singles, ( not in this case, as we know) - and a further disadvantage in that delay repay on a return is better for a long delay than for a single each way.

In any event, I'm a big advocate of giving passengers what they want, rather than what the industry says they ought to have.

I've played around with most of the local stations , and only wondered if anyone knew of one that LNER have missed...

Unfortunately LNER have already abolished return fares for nearly all of the journeys they price. Broadly speaking, they only kept the previous structure for short journeys such as Leeds to Doncaster, where it would have caused more split ticket "anomalies" (as they would view them) to arise. Ain't it funny how keeping a weird and wonderful assortment of fares is "simple" there but "too complicated" for long journeys - cakeism once again.

So for a longer journey like Leeds to London you'll have to buy an "overdistance" ticket like Burnley Manchester Road to London, where all (walk-up) fares are set by Avanti, to buy a return fare. Incidentally this is cheaper, by a fair margin, than buying two Super Off-Peak Singles from Leeds to London...

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's important that the public understands the people doing this are elected and can be voted out. I'm not sure that is widely understood.

You can't vote the civil service out. They are who is behind this, not Labour themselves.

(I class Horne as a civil servant now LNER is nationalised).