Indeed. There might be other places where the railway works like that but they cannot be compared to Great Britain.
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Expansion of LNER 70-min flex trial area ("Simpler Fares")
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Why can’t they? Many aspects of GB railways are often compared to those of other countries.
Tazi Hupefi
Established Member
Like others, I think you need to expand on this.
What is so radically different about the UK, say a fast LNER London-Edinburgh versus a Trenitalia service from Rome to Milan?
If your argument is that some (but by no means all) UK InterCity services service comparatively small local markets, this happens all over the world too, complete with compulsory reservations, often at a cost. However, even if you consider that is an issue, there's plenty of intercity services where that is not an issue, particularly Birmingham-Coventry-Euston for example.
Yes it serves Birmingham to Coventry, but local customers really shouldn't be on that sort of intercity service, same with Wolverhampton to Birmingham.
As somone on this forum was fond of saying "a solution looking for a problem".
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If we're going to be like other countries, lets have their affordable fares as well !
Tazi Hupefi
Established Member
Ultimately all of this kind of thing is coming in to the UK rail market, whatever forum members think about it. It's foolish to think otherwise. It's even more bizarre to see suggestions on this forum that it's some sort of revenue grabbing conspiracy by David Horne himself.
In a couple of years, the hysterics from certain vocal people will be muted - and the travelling public will continue to travel at a price point they are comfortable with, or can at least tolerate, mostly with a guaranteed seat.
The flexibility "issues" just aren't cutting through with the public at large. The reforms are mostly positively backed by Transport Focus, DfT, political circles and the industry itself.
Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing what creative workarounds this forum manages to find going forwards in this new era - I'm sure they'll still exist and the cat and mouse game will persist.
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Rome to Milan can be eye wateringly expensive, for example.
Even where InterCity fares are "cheaper" abroad, mostly this is achieved by huge subsidies and increased tax takes - so you are paying, just in a different way.
It's €102 for a one way standard class single fare if I want to go from Rome to Milan on the 19:40 today. Add another €2 if you want a seat picker option.
In a couple of years, the hysterics from certain vocal people will be muted - and the travelling public will continue to travel at a price point they are comfortable with, or can at least tolerate, mostly with a guaranteed seat.
The flexibility "issues" just aren't cutting through with the public at large. The reforms are mostly positively backed by Transport Focus, DfT, political circles and the industry itself.
Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing what creative workarounds this forum manages to find going forwards in this new era - I'm sure they'll still exist and the cat and mouse game will persist.
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This is a complete myth too - pricing is not as different as you'd expect for inter city (Western European) markets, especially when you normalise it to consider the earnings of a population.
Rome to Milan can be eye wateringly expensive, for example.
Even where InterCity fares are "cheaper" abroad, mostly this is achieved by huge subsidies and increased tax takes - so you are paying, just in a different way.
It's €102 for a one way standard class single fare if I want to go from Rome to Milan on the 19:40 today. Add another €2 if you want a seat picker option.
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The railway has long recognised that it is much more efficient to use capacity on long distance trains close to their country destination to move local passengers than provide separate services. Coventry to Birmingham being a particularly valid example. That is because we have built railways that only have two lines, and we can't provide separate fast services for local passengers and long distance ones.
If we had more multiple track railway, and capacity for more specific local trains, you may have a point.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If you consider that GBP1 = EUR1.50 roughly evens out on the cost of living, that's a very reasonable price which is cheaper than LNER is usually charging for a similar distance by a very significant margin. Basically London to Edinburgh for about 70 quid. And in the peak similar prices too.
Add to that that the Europeans don't charge much of a markup for first class...
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There are ways this can be handled, eg only issuing counted places for this sort of journey.
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The biggest problem with optional reservations is people ignoring them and refusing to move. And staff unwilling to enforce it either. At least where everyone has an allocated seat it can be managed better.
Overall I am not in favour of CR (either actual or just making flexible fares unaffordable which is the sneaky way it is being done here) but one does have to accept that for occasional leisure passengers who own a car (that's most people) they do have considerable advantages.
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Many people on here have pointed out instances where the price of advance purchase tickets have gone up above the cost of the old off-peak single. That is a revenue grabbing conspiracy.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Absolutely it is.
If this is revenue neutral it's a failure - but I'm confident it will be VERY revenue positive. Certainly there are people like me who will if the off peak goes away put the effort in to get a cheap fare (if I have to book in advance I might as well get it cheap) rather than just paying walk up as I usually do. But most people will just be stuck with paying it.
It's only a conspiracy in the sense LNER are bare faced lying about why it is being done.
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Another advantage of this to the railway is that it allows cost to be saved by removing TVMs and booking office windows. Cinemas switched to allocated seating to achieve the same - almost everyone used to pay at the ticket desk and now hardly anyone does so they could close them and just sell tickets at the food counter for the odd few that rock up on spec.
Is the Rome to Milan service frequently substituted with a train that has half the number of seats it's supposed to?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It certainly happens on the mainland. Where it does people just cram in like here.
And look where thaggotthe cinema industry!
If this is the case then why do the inter-city operators encourage people to specifically travel on their services between places like Coventry and Birmingham with Advance fares and TOC only fares?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They did very well out of it. The thing that has damaged the industry post COVID is twofold - a lack of decent films and people having purchased home cinema kit during COVID, together with COVID itself having cost them a lot of money.
I certainly can see no disadvantage of it for cinema. You get to pick your preferred seat without having to rush in the second the doors open. Maybe slightly fewer people watch the ads but probably most still do.
The main issue for rail isn't really CR in and of itself, it's the dynamic pricing model that means booking on the day is grossly expensive. I haven't found it hard to get reservations on Avanti out of Euston at any time - they're just so rarely actually full now. You do see sold out on TPE Scotland services quite a lot but that's because of the lack of funding for proper length trains.
Tazi Hupefi
Established Member
Because it's a historically fragmented and fractured industry - it's now time to put it back together and sort things out properly, and that includes moving local traffic away from intercity services, especially routes like Coventry to Birmingham that are more than well catered for by alternative local or semi- regional services instead.
The removal of these silly fares is long overdue.
It's reform and moving forwards.
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Yes!! Absolutely, yes! And if you're thinking about claiming Delay Repay - it will come as a bit of a shock....
Not travelling and want a refund? 3-4 months typically in that sort of scenario.
How far out are local passengers allowed to travel on 'intercity services' in your vision of utopia? If not Coventry into Birmingham, is Rugby fine? How about Stoke or Macclesfield into Manchester? Reading into London? Sheffield to Leeds? Durham to Newcastle? Moreover, is it really clear where the boundary is between an intercity service and the next level down?
Northern want to run Middlesbrough to Newcastle via Durham but can't because the long distance trains are prioritised. What is the answer on a congested network?
Haywain
Veteran Member
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Do you consider that a realistic exchange rate? It hasn't been at that level for many years.
The silly fares that need removing are preposterously overpriced "anytime" fares.
Tazi Hupefi
Established Member
The overall exercise has been cost neutral to LNER though, yes some have paid more, but that has been balanced out by others paying less.
One of the key considerations when all of this was set up was to ensure that it wasn't perceived as profiteering - it's largely neutral. The benefits for the TOC have come in (or are anticipated as being) managing the demand more efficiently and effectively, better (re)utilisation of seats and improved customer satisfaction/ net promoter scores.
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Stoke/Macclesfield/Manchester should absolutely not be an InterCity journey.
Same with Reading-London. Elizabeth Line and the semi fast Class 37x services priced locally. Anything else InterCity.
By all means, like FS or SNCF allow people to book it - but there's a premium attached that means many will stick to the local provision.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Why not have tickets for say Birmingham-Coventry that are flexible, but read "Not valid on XC services" and have that as your most flexible ticket on the route. It would allow for passengers to still use WMR/LNR services and also Avanti. (Replicate for other scenarios like Wolverhampton-Birmingham or Stockport-Manchester)
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Meaning passengers will now have to take a Northern service, which for Stoke-Manchester takes ~15 minutes longer one way.
They're in for a rude awakening if they think they can hike up both flexible and advanced purchase fares, and not have it perceived as profiteering.
Yes, but there are four long distance trains and one local one each hour. That provision would have to change, and it doesn't fit. Moreover, the long-distance train has the spare capacity because some people travel from Stoke to London, not just from Manchester.
Places simply aren't spaced far enough apart for continental style railway operation.
Outside Eurostar, which ones provide full meals in First? Admittedly, LNER (and, with their new menu, TPE) are the only GB ones with both reasonably-priced First advance fares and full meals provided in First, with Avanti failing on the price hurdle and GWR, CrossCountry and TfW either not providing full meals or charging extra, as far as I'm aware.
Tazi Hupefi
Established Member
Agreed - but the whole point of GBR is reform - not just fares, but services/timetables etc too.l
BR had a load of Pick Up / Set Down Only restrictions. Lots of these only disappeared so TOCs like Virgin could do silly things like specific TOC tickets between Stockport and Manchester.
The arguement shouldn't be about the fares, it's about the need for improved or more balanced local provision in certain areas.
I disagree on the spacing point.
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signed
Established Member
Basically none, FC over in the continent is just bigger seats
The worst offender on that is likely Switzerland, where a FC ticket is 75% more expensive and only gives you loads of legroom
I think a lot of the mandatory-reservation high-speed services some are using to advocate for them here are ignoring that they're generally a lot less frequent there. Paris – Marseille and Strasbourg have gaps of over an hour in service (e.g. only two departures from Paris-Est to Strasbourg between 10:52 and 15:12 tomorrow; Madrid – Valencia looks frequent from 06:50 to noon but only hourly for most of the afternoon, especially taking out the three Avlo and Iryo services), whilst in the UK most major intercity flows are at least 2 tph, and consistently through the day (especially once the CrossCountry from Newcastle – Reading goes back to hourly). Passengers might plan around specific trains if the next one's in two hours, but not for a 20 minute wait.
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Well Via Rail in Canada offers all of the unpleasantness of air travel, with slower journeys than driving. Their baggage policies are particularly stupid, as is penning people in a holding area until the train has stopped.
I'm not going to consider Trenitalia, SNCF or Renfe a model of how Britain's railways ought to be run. Do SBB have compulsory reservations on domestic services? I gather that ICEs are no longer compulsory reservation.
So £87ish for 360ish miles. If LNER routinely offered anything like that sort of value at that short notice then there would be few complaints here. You're more likely to be stung for £198 or simply told "sold out".
To be fair, for the journeys I was checking (admittedly on a Bank Holiday Monday morning) the markup was only £10-20. Which probably says more about the extortionate standard class fares than anything.
Tazi Hupefi
Established Member
Some DB ICEs are compulsory reservation in the summer months on the busier/longer routes.
As for the pricing - today is a bad example because of engineering works and no trains but I can get a similar £93 ticket for 08:30 tomorrow morning from London to Edinburgh on LNER.
Can you provide something to substantiate this claim please?