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Evening Standard Story: More Dangerous DOO Chaos

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DarloRich

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I think what is needed is a fatality or serious medical emergency due to passengers being trapped on a hot and busy train for some time before the issue gets taken seriously. For some reason the risk seems to be ignored, yet it is real, whilst other minor risks are taken into account which increase the time needed to rescue or evacuate a stuck train. Desision making during incidents is far too slow. I've known even minor failures lead to trains stuck for hours whilst control decided what to do, in situations where the train crew were well aware of the ovious solution to the problem (in one case uncoupling the failed rear unit and taking the working units forward, and in another limping the failed train to a nearby siding and allowing the following service to collect passengers).

For those ciriticising the passenger, it's important to remember that there is a massive difference between being stuck on a train whilst being able to sit down (and read a book, play with laptop etc as someone suggested) and being stuck on a train and having to stand, perhaps so packed that you can't even sit down on the floor. I think a big problem in dealing with these situations is the disconnection between those handling it and the passenger in the worst of it. Even the driver is sitting in their comfortable cab, ok they might have lost A/C but at least they can open the window or door. The control room staff are sitting in their nice office with a cup of tea, a world away from the passengers who are hot, crowded and uncomfortable.

FFS - Yes that’s right none of us care about the passengers!

Taking your two obvious, simple, easy examples:

Say the wires are down, How do you shunt the unit to the siding? How do you know the unit will fit in the nearest siding? Who owns it? is it suitable for a full length passenger train? Are there access rights? What will the cost be?

How do you propose to clear the running line of the broken unit? So the passengers on the broken train are ok but what about the ones trapped behind? How do you clear the units in front of the failed train in order to get a rescue loco (IF there is one) to the scene? How do you get the units behind past the broken unit? Where are the cross over’s, what is the pathing like? Do you put a full block on or do trains still run in the other direction?

How do you get the recovery programme for the rest of the day into action? How do you cover the failed units diagrams? How do you get the broken infrastructure fixed? How soon? What equipment is needed? Where is it? How soon can you get machinery and men to site? Where do they access the line?

Say you have a 321 pairing, how do you propose to get the passengers off the failed unit onto the good one? Are the emergency services needed? Are passengers hurt? Are the wires down? Are they live? Is the pantograph tangled in the wires? Is the train off the road?

These are just the one of the top of my head! There are lots of other factors to consider

But hey we just sit in our nice offices drinking tea and picking our bums while the passengers are left to rot. Of course we could fix it in about 5 minutes, especially when the solution is so simple but we choose not to! :roll::roll::roll:
 
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deltic

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There seem to be a number of issues here - many of them related to our obsession with health and safety.

As mentioned by many a hot train is not only unpleasant but can be down right dangerous. My experience of being stuck on a SWT service (hence with guard) was that it was a passenger who pulled out a T key (which she kept on her for such occasions) and opened the windows for the grateful passengers. On the continent I have been on trains that have broken down and everyone has jumped off and sat on the embankment in the sun till the driver sounded the horn to let everyone know all was fixed and we all jumped back on again.

Not sure why such a fuss is being made about the train eventually moving at low speeds with the doors open. We have a Mayor in London that wants to reintroduce a bus with no doors and no-one is stopping him.

People jumping out of trains are often not panicking but making rational decisions. I have done it on the old slam door stock when a train stopped outside London Bridge due to power failure. What is rational about sitting on a train for an indefinite time compared with walking for 2 minutes along the tracks when you know which rail is live if the power is still actually on.

I agree FCC need to get staff to such a situation quicker and have a system in place where doors and windows can be opened. But a lot of it seems to be a fuss over very little.
 

DarloRich

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There seem to be a number of issues here - many of them related to our obsession with health and safety.

As mentioned by many a hot train is not only unpleasant but can be down right dangerous. My experience of being stuck on a SWT service (hence with guard) was that it was a passenger who pulled out a T key (which she kept on her for such occasions) and opened the windows for the grateful passengers. On the continent I have been on trains that have broken down and everyone has jumped off and sat on the embankment in the sun till the driver sounded the horn to let everyone know all was fixed and we all jumped back on again.

Not sure why such a fuss is being made about the train eventually moving at low speeds with the doors open. We have a Mayor in London that wants to reintroduce a bus with no doors and no-one is stopping him.

People jumping out of trains are often not panicking but making rational decisions. I have done it on the old slam door stock when a train stopped outside London Bridge due to power failure. What is rational about sitting on a train for an indefinite time compared with walking for 2 minutes along the tracks when you know which rail is live if the power is still actually on.

I agree FCC need to get staff to such a situation quicker and have a system in place where doors and windows can be opened. But a lot of it seems to be a fuss over very little.

HOW DO YOU KNOW THE POWER IS OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is very unpleasent to be sat on a hot train, we all know that. It is more unpleasent to have to pick bits of people off the railway line.
 

jopsuk

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Not sure why such a fuss is being made about the train eventually moving at low speeds with the doors open. We have a Mayor in London that wants to reintroduce a bus with no doors and no-one is stopping him.

Many, many people have pledged to consume their headwear should Boris's folly wever be spotted in normal service with the rear platform open.
 

j0hn0

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the 377s are awful trains anyway and they should be phased out of thameslink asap.

Even just on a "normal" day, ie. 2 train failures, my girlfriend and I commuted in on an absolutely packed 377 and the aircon is NEVER cold enough. It might be for all stations prior to st albans, but when everyone gets on and is standing, the aircon needs to be turned up.

I had to carry my girlfriend off the train because it was so hot an unventilated she was halfway to collapsing at st pancras.

The very fact that people were on these useless trains WITHOUT aircon, in a tunnel, with loads of other people squashed in, is way more dangerous than taking your chances and walking down the track.

I cannot think of one thing i like about 377's, whether it be the board like narrow seating that no-one can fit on, the time it takes to switch voltages, the open buttons in the centre of the doors, the regular break-downs, the useless aircon etc etc.

I actually got the last train that night before it all happened, my girlfriend wasn't so lucky. There was another thread about this and someone was actually on the train who posts on this forum.

Just another day in the lives of FCC commuters, what a horrible horrible situation and I can't wait to move (even though I will be still using the same line into St Pancras)
 

radamfi

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My experience of being stuck on a SWT service (hence with guard) was that it was a passenger who pulled out a T key (which she kept on her for such occasions) and opened the windows for the grateful passengers.

Where can you get a T-key from?
 

DarloRich

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but it is much more dangerous to get off the train. I take the issue of aircon failure and lack of ventilation BUT to get off a stopped train in anything other than an immediate threat to life ( like the train being on fire) shows a lack of understanding of the dangers of an opperational railway
 

Firestarter

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Yes the driver is in the same cconditions, the windows on a 377 are locked with a T key so the driver would need to force his way through each coach to unlock them individually - a crazy system

Incidentally no power means no PA when the batteries pack up, this would have meant no announcents, also no battery means no mitrac computer.

I'm assuming that as the problems were with the pans ( turns out they had a branch stuck in one) that the assisting unit would only mechanically couple to drag out so again their would have been no cab indication the doors were open.
I have seen a utube video of the incident and on arrival at Kentish Town the PA announcements says only the front four coaches will open the doors which make methinks the unit was dragged out dead.

Also folks please bear in mind the assisting unit was also DOO so only two drivers where on board and they would have been occupied with coupling etc. What makes no sense and is quite criminal IMO is why no other staff were dispatched to offer assistance and support to the passengers and the driver

Makes the Mcnulty report look even more stupid now, DOO needs to be resisted for this very reason .


I fear their is a lot to come out ofthis incident and I pray that the driver is no made a scapegoat

Can you provide a link to youtube? Can't find it myself.
 

Dr.iver

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Why does that suprise you? Of all the 1000's of services that operate each day across the country not everyone will have an off duty (or other company) member of railway staff on board.


Mmmmm let me see, major depots at kings cross, blackfriars depots , FCC head office at old street, revenue offices/mess rooms along that part of the route, fitters depots at Bedford and Hornsey (GN side), staff from southern making their way home northbound, Btp going home, control offices nearby

To be clear and my wording was probably wrong but I didn't mean to imply off duty staff sat and did nothing it's just I know that route well to pass home myself and I was surprised that none of the above where on that train. Perhaps I should have said the driver was unlucky not to have any off the above.

If however any off the above where on board and didn't help may I humbly suggest they are shot at Dawn
 

Firestarter

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Mmmmm let me see, major depots at kings cross, blackfriars depots , FCC head office at old street, revenue offices/mess rooms along that part of the route, fitters depots at Bedford and Hornsey (GN side), staff from southern making their way home northbound, Btp going home, control offices nearby

To be clear and my wording was probably wrong but I didn't mean to imply off duty staff sat and did nothing it's just I know that route well to pass home myself and I was surprised that none of the above where on that train. Perhaps I should have said the driver was unlucky not to have any off the above.

If however any off the above where on board and didn't help may I humbly suggest they are shot at Dawn

Just found the youtube videos. No chance apparently of walking through that train to open windows. In one of the videos their a man in a blue shirts at start of the video. I've seen that color shirt before but not sure which TOC. If I'm right their your one person on the train that could of helped.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr1vGSkHc3M&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJAfsGM56cI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq7gW2dS3cs&feature=related
 
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185

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I'm assuming the driver operated the TIS (Traction Interlock Switch) get the brakes off caused by door problems.

What I was saying before was that if there was a guard present, he would normally be expected to visually walk around and check the doors on all coaches after the TIS was operated, then move the train.

As this is DOO, the driver is required to do that. This is where DOO falls down as being expected to get the train on the move, and make that visual check at the same time doesn't actually work.
 

Skimble19

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The driver closed the doors himself though.. the video shows it. Whilst he was opening windows he closed the door that had been opened, the train didn't move until after that. Also, whilst they were discussing (in what seemed a joking manner to me) going for a walk it didn't appear that anyone had actually got off the train. Of course there were 11 other carriages, but if any other carriage had opened the doors this lot would have noticed.
 

Anonywave

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Reassurance, flow of information, updates on progress, and so on. And at the very least, an awareness of what the hell is going inside the train, which was clearly not held by whoever was driving in this case :roll:

And also if the train had one of those locked openable windows (I'm sure the majority of the 377's have this), the second crewmember would have probably had the key to open it.
 

Mcr Warrior

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HOW DO YOU KNOW THE POWER IS OFF!

:!:The recent DOO incident was north of Kings Cross wasn't it, so presumably it's overhead power supply there, but I agree with DarloRich that you certainly wouldn't want to be having to avoid stepping on the third rail if de-training in the London Bridge area!
 

moggie

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I think DOO does have to be questioned in this scanario (which will be far from unique). When I say DOO - I mean only the driver on board with no other available member of staff to assist the driver emergency, whether this be a guard, revenue protection or any other title you care to give them.

The driver clearly has a number of defined responsibilities to carry out under the rule book requirements. In a predictable and controlled situation I have no doubt that the duties of the driver and the workload presented are manageable and do not compromise safety of the train, its passengers or indeed the safety of the train driver themselves - that is obvious or the rules wouldn't be as they are. What I am less convinced about (and no doubt this has been argued long and hard when setting the original rules governing DOO) is what happens when less / unpredictable events occur that add significantly to the drivers and signallers workload and communication (or indeed if the driver is incappacitated but that is another argument).

I think the scenario presented here which is a failed train requiring assistance AND partially in a tunnel is standard stuff that just takes careful mangement and time to arrange the necessary course of action. Assisting a train situated in a tunnel requires additional precautions covered by Rule Book.

I would summarise this as; identification of fault, communication with signaller, protection of train, identify assistance required, identify assisting train, passengers information and management of passengers post event. Recovery plan of action. The driver and signaller will be at the forefront of this with control (TOC/NR) and others also involved. So plenty of activity required and clearly an event requiring frequent communication between driver and signaller to establish precise details of the present situation and the planned course of action.

Then you throw in unpredictable events - e.g. the behaviour and consequent actions of passengers.

I think it entirely understandable that after so many hours with little / no idea of what is going to happen and perhaps more importantly, when something positive is going to happen, other 'leaders' emerge. I call them 'leaders' by that I mean people who will naturally attempt to take control of their situation in a vacuum of other leadership / direction or indeed just 'hotheads', perhaps acting out of character because of the distress they or others around them may be suffering. As has been stated elsewhere in this thread railway safety is not going to be at the forefront of their minds (if indeed they are ever capable of understanding rail safety risks). Once signs of genuine distress among the the less resilient passengers starts to emerge, these 'leaders' will become apparent in suggesting solutions to alleviate distress. It only takes one to suggest an idea which if supported (or indeed not challenged) by those around will quickly gain support and lead to action.

Rationale I would suggest does not play an important part as any action to alleviate genuine distress will trump percieved safety rationale in a crisis (especially if the percieved risk of their action is small / negligable. The conversation between one passenger and a few others held on one of the You Tube videos about walking along the track between the train and the wall with cable route trunking at head height, all the tripping hazards and limited clearance between train and cable route ably illustrates this. Although the doors were opened to reduce the temperature there was clearly a next step of action being considered by some.

To his credit the driver appears to have recognised the growing distress to passengers and the need to manage this by taking controlled action in opening the 'emergency' ventialtion windows and shutting the doors without antagonising the passengers who have already demonstrated a need to 'take control'. Probably helped by British 'stiff upper lip' attitude despite the situation.

What happend after when clearance of the failed train was attempted is clearly the subject of the announced enquiry by RAIB.

It can be reasonably SPECULATED that further doors were opened by passengers to alleviate their distress, presumably after the driver had returned to his cab. It is also clear that some passengers took it upon themselves to leave the train. No doubt hurd mentallity played a part and added to the numbers of people who followed onto the track but the percieved level of discomfort being suffered clearly outweighed any percieved understanding of the dangers they faced by exiting the train despite what us rail folk like to think.

We (us railway people) can clearly see the dangers of this action and the futility of it which only added to the problems being managed, but that would be a failure to recognise and attempt to understand the behaviour of passengers caught up in a distressing (physically and emotionally) incident such as this, therefore I feel that RAIB should include a study of this action in their enquiry.

Moreso, the actions of passengers pushed beyond their individual limits clearly contributed to the time taken to resolve the incident and also to the workload of those who were managing the incident - primarily the driver of the failed and assisting trains and the signaller and their supervisor.

My concern about DOO is in this situation, is the workload (predicted and unpredicted and largely unsupported at the point of incident) expected to be performed by those staff involved. Is it reasonable for the limited amount of staff at the scene and are the consequences understood and tolerable?

By definition there would be significant time to resolve the original routine but complex incident, plus a potential for magnification of the incident and therefore time due to behavioural factors as happened here. The managing of the event potentially getting beyond a reasonable expectation for those at the scene to manage and thus creating a potentially significant safety hazzard for all involved.

RAIB will also be looking at the train systems and incident managment processes that lead to the alleged movement of the train with some of it's doors open. I hope that whatever comes out of their investigations they also look at the workload being undertaken by the staff when considering their findings.

This won't be the last time an incident of this nature occurs that's for sure.
 
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I think it's astonishing that this story did not hit the news when it occurred. Presumably it was the NIR being published yesterday that woke up the press.

It shows a remarkable degree of resilience on the part of the long suffering passengers that none of them blabbed to the press at the time IMHO.

Also, there's a missing railway acronym in this thread, that might explain a lot (drivers will understand)... TIS. Was the driver at fault here?
 

michael769

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BUT to get off a stopped train in anything other than an immediate threat to life ( like the train being on fire) shows a lack of understanding of the dangers of an opperational railway

But is it reasonable to expect passengers to have that understanding? Staff get training on that point, passengers do not.

The key point is that if left in such conditions people will eventually (rightly or wrongly) take action to alleviate their distress and as this may result in their being in even greater damage, surely there is a duty of care on those who run the railway to manage that risk by getting additional aid to such passengers so that they can be managed safely, by personnel who are trained in the risks associated with the railway?

This train did not break down in an isolated area where it would take hours to get to the passengers, but near a station - and yet no attempt seems to have been made to ascertain the conditions that the passengers were being subjected to, or even to give them reassurance. Not to mention the train crew who was left to try to keep the passengers safe in a situation where it should have been clear that they would not have the resources to do so.

My perception is that the railways in such situations prioritise recovery of their stock and services over the safety and well being of passengers who are, in effect, imprisoned in a very confined space. That may be ok for 15-30 minutes, but 3 hours?
 

Maxfly

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But is it reasonable to expect passengers to have that understanding? Staff get training on that point, passengers do not.

?

Well, yes to be honest! It is more something to do with common sense which more and more people leave home without these days. If passengers who may look out the window of the train they are trapped on to see other trains bombing along taking power from a 3rd rail (sparks maybe??) and think it is a good idea to get off where they are and wander along the line, well herd mentality or whatever more translates to plain stupidity. Probably the same people who would driver along the middle lane of a motorway as they think it is safer and are too scared to go to the inside lane where they should return after any overtaking is complete...
 

87015

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Well, yes to be honest! It is more something to do with common sense which more and more people leave home without these days. If passengers who may look out the window of the train they are trapped on to see other trains bombing along taking power from a 3rd rail (sparks maybe??) and think it is a good idea to get off where they are and wander along the line, well herd mentality or whatever more translates to plain stupidity. Probably the same people who would driver along the middle lane of a motorway as they think it is safer and are too scared to go to the inside lane where they should return after any overtaking is complete...

You better not go abroad then where wandering around the line to your hearts content is commonplace but strangely enough people don't die left, right and centre.
 

Maxfly

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You better not go abroad then where wandering around the line to your hearts content is commonplace but strangely enough people don't die left, right and centre.

who said anything about dying?

Unsurprisingly trespass as we call that over here is pretty common and far fewer people die than trespass, though someone getting melted by a train is still a regular occurance in the log.....
 

Matt Taylor

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I feel (and, no doubt am) safer on a train in Glasgow than I do on an SWT inner suburban train. In fact, if you asked members of the public (who won't know what the difference between a guard and a ticket examiner is!) if their trains have guards, I bet a higher percentage in Glasgow would say "yes" than on SWT inner suburban workings, despite the reverse actually being true, but those guards are invisible to the public as they just sit in the cab between stations.


I must take issue with that paragraph, I will concede that there are plenty of SWT guards who are happy to sit in the middle cab and pop out now and then for station stops but there are also some of us that regularly patrol the train throughout the journey-I know we are in the minority but we work a damn sight harder than our colleagues. There is a standing instruction that (except for Waterloo to Clapham and times when the train is wedged) we are to patrol the train a minimum of every 30 minutes.

That said, history tells us that having a guard will not prevent passengers getting on to the tracks when delays get excessive so neither a guard nor a ticket inspector would have made much difference in this situation.
 

BestWestern

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Of course the driver has the t-key, In my experience it would have taken him the best part of an hour to force his way through each coach to open all the windows, now their is no way he or the signaller would want him away from any form of communication for this time as no direct contact with the driver means no movement of the assisting train - quite simply DOO means you either deal with the train or the passengers, incidents like this are a drivers worst nightmare as the situation can escalate rapidly out of your control.
What surprises me us that no other railway person ( even office based) from any company was on board and volunteered to help, in hindsight the driver could have asked a passenger to take responsibilty to open windows but in the heat of the moment things get missed - you might be surprised but we don't receive direct training in dealing with the public during an incident and it comes down to the individual
If you took the airline industry for example during an incident they have check lists etc which they must follow, a train driver wouldn't have this luxury instead heaping have a signaller issuing instructions, control doing the same and then passengers as well.

Incredible that such a shambolic system is allowed to continue to operate quite frankly. I have every sympathy for the Driver of this slightly doomed train! Let's hope that FCC are compelled to review their handling of this, and hopefully learn some lessons.
 

Mojo

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It's nothing to do with staffing numbers on board, but the company policy for evacuation and passing on information. My company, which operates all of its trains with one member of staff on board as a minimum has well rehearsed and practiced evacuation and emergency plans, rules to require train operators to be in communication with customers and make announcements, station staff who are trained in walking the track and evacuation from trains as well as mobile infrastructure teams and duty/incident managers who can communicate directly with the train operator and associated staff to arrange detrainment and help customers with stockpiles of water (if required).

Investigations hopefully should reveal what went wrong in FCC's case, and how their emergency plans are set up to deal with such incidents.
 

BestWestern

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It's nothing to do with staffing numbers on board, but the company policy for evacuation and passing on information. My company, which operates all of its trains with one member of staff on board as a minimum has well rehearsed and practiced evacuation and emergency plans, rules to require train operators to be in communication with customers and make announcements, station staff who are trained in walking the track and evacuation from trains as well as mobile infrastructure teams and duty/incident managers who can communicate directly with the train operator and associated staff to arrange detrainment and help customers with stockpiles of water (if required).

Investigations hopefully should reveal what went wrong in FCC's case, and how their emergency plans are set up to deal with such incidents.

The 'company policy for evacuation' is of little use when people start bailing out of the train of their own accord, with a Driver who is unable to deal adequately with it because he/she is having to also deal with the initial incident itself. It is not fair, sensible or safe to expect one solitary person to be able to deal with more than one incident at one time; if people start opening doors and jumping out of a delayed train that is two incidents now taking place. Is your company LUL? Station staff walking the line and evacuating is good practice, but sadly of no use at all if your train is in the middle of nowhere. It certainly seems though that FCC have some problems with their contingency planning.
 

DarloRich

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But is it reasonable to expect passengers to have that understanding? Staff get training on that point, passengers do not.

The key point is that if left in such conditions people will eventually (rightly or wrongly) take action to alleviate their distress and as this may result in their being in even greater damage, surely there is a duty of care on those who run the railway to manage that risk by getting additional aid to such passengers so that they can be managed safely, by personnel who are trained in the risks associated with the railway?

This train did not break down in an isolated area where it would take hours to get to the passengers, but near a station - and yet no attempt seems to have been made to ascertain the conditions that the passengers were being subjected to, or even to give them reassurance. Not to mention the train crew who was left to try to keep the passengers safe in a situation where it should have been clear that they would not have the resources to do so.

My perception is that the railways in such situations prioritise recovery of their stock and services over the safety and well being of passengers who are, in effect, imprisoned in a very confined space. That may be ok for 15-30 minutes, but 3 hours?

Yes - it is reasonable to expect passengers to have that understanding! What happended to common sense

And have a look at post 61 -Your perception is wrong
 

westcoaster

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Just found the youtube videos. No chance apparently of walking through that train to open windows. In one of the videos their a man in a blue shirts at start of the video. I've seen that color shirt before but not sure which TOC. If I'm right their your one person on the train that could of helped.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr1vGSkHc3M&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJAfsGM56cI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq7gW2dS3cs&feature=related

Looks very much like an emt member of staff.
 

sidmouth

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Seems to me quite a clear breach of H&S by FCC. Would I have acted any different to the passengers concerned (being stuck on a packed train for more than 2 hours with no information)? Not sure. Thus not providing a rescue within say 60 minutes ought to be a quite clear risk to life and limb, and should have been predicted and planned for within any normal risk assessment. I consider FCC completely liable.
 
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