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The Conservative Party under Kemi Badenoch

nw1

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Kemi Badenoch is deluded or guilty of wishful thinking when she says that her party is united, and she’ll be out before too long. Anyone can see they’re still arguing amongst themselves, and to say otherwise is bonkers. But it’s what they do. Good riddance!

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At some point we might be able to have a sensible discussion between alternatives, such as low-tax versus intervention, but not today.

Indeed, to be honest I'd prefer it if the main choice we had was between a more left-wing economically Labour; an economically-right-wing but socially not-especially-right-wing Conservative Party; and the Lib Dems offering something in between.
 
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brad465

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I could see a gap in the political market for a left wing economically, but right wing socially party. A lot of the old hard left wing were quite conservative socially, and nothing has really replaced them. It would present a credible challenge to Farage on the right, and would offer an alternative political model to the alienated who seek the old "local jobs, local people and local traditions" philosophy that only Farage and co currently offer.

There is an argument in some left wing circles that social liberalism doesn't actually suit the left wing at all, because it leads to worse conditions for workers and people in general.
Controlling immigration policy is one area that conflicts with a lot of parties, but would fit that party description. Having strict immigration control is left wing economically (state intervention in the labour market), and right wing socially (cultural preservation). It's probably why the Conservatives spent 14 years promising to cut migration, but at the same time doing nothing towards achieving that; they wanted to win other right wing socially people, while still satisfying right wing economically people.
 

signed

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Perhaps we need an organised Left group here, in the same way that France does
The French left is very much disorganised, everyone disagrees with everyone. And everybody knows that the next president will very likely be Marine Le Pen

This a part in why the National Rally is so popular now, and the topple of the last government, which saw both NR and the left vote for the topple, is more due to the general extreme distrust of Macron by both sides of the spectrum.
 

takno

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The French left is very much disorganised, everyone disagrees with everyone. And everybody knows that the next president will very likely be Marine Le Pen

This a part in why the National Rally is so popular now, and the topple of the last government, which saw both NR and the left vote for the topple, is more due to the general extreme distrust of Macron by both sides of the spectrum.
I don't think it's particularly likely that marine Le Pen will win the next presidential election. The politics are a confused and adversarial mess, largely due to Macron and Melenchon having wild insatiable egos. It's still a struggle to see LePen winning the runoff though.
 

nw1

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Having strict immigration control is left wing economically (state intervention in the labour market), and right wing socially (cultural preservation).

It's also authoritarian on the libertarian/authoritarian spectrum, so does not sit well with libertarians whether left or right. The left-libertarian quarter of the graph is the one quarter which seems to lack an obvious party to satisfy it, and why I think what we need most of all is a left-libertarian party.

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I don't think it's particularly likely that marine Le Pen will win the next presidential election. The politics are a confused and adversarial mess, largely due to Macron and Melenchon having wild insatiable egos. It's still a struggle to see LePen winning the runoff though.

I would hope that something similar to this summer would happen and people would vote "anyone but Le Pen" in the second round. Maybe it's worth Macron standing down in favour of someone who might be more popular to lead the centre.
 

Acfb

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It's also authoritarian on the libertarian/authoritarian spectrum, so does not sit well with libertarians whether left or right. The left-libertarian quarter of the graph is the one quarter which seems to lack an obvious party to satisfy it, and why I think what we need most of all is a left-libertarian party.

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I would hope that something similar to this summer would happen and people would vote "anyone but Le Pen" in the second round. Maybe it's worth Macron standing down in favour of someone who might be more popular to lead the centre.
France has term limits so Macron can't run again anyway. I do think any half decent centrist candidate is still likely to win even if Le Pen has 'moderated' some of her positions.
 

JamesT

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It's also authoritarian on the libertarian/authoritarian spectrum, so does not sit well with libertarians whether left or right. The left-libertarian quarter of the graph is the one quarter which seems to lack an obvious party to satisfy it, and why I think what we need most of all is a left-libertarian party.
Don’t those two normally end up being somewhat opposed? If you’re a libertarian then you want the government to leave you alone. That seems at odds with left wing economics which involves lots of government intervention.
 

Yew

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It's a bit of a daft argument though. Being pro-LGBTQ+ rights for example, or pro ethnic-minority rights, doesn't lead to worse conditions for workers or people in general.
Whilst I do factually agree that the two are not incompatible, I do sometimes feel that within the political landscape, social issues end up "stealing the oxygen" from left-wing economic issues.

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Don’t those two normally end up being somewhat opposed? If you’re a libertarian then you want the government to leave you alone. That seems at odds with left wing economics which involves lots of government intervention.
That's a view that has certainly become popular in the US, particularly in the hands of billionaires trying to use those sorts of arguments.

Though, I think the idea of the state being strong on regulation of corporations and markets is not fundamentally incompatible with personal liberty. Personally I find the idea rather appealing, as a counter to new-Labours combination of continuing Neoliberal economic policies, and the "nanny state".
 

nw1

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Don’t those two normally end up being somewhat opposed? If you’re a libertarian then you want the government to leave you alone. That seems at odds with left wing economics which involves lots of government intervention.

I think there are two branches of libertarianism, personal libertarianism (e.g. on matters of sexuality, abortion, freedom of immigration) and financial libertarianism (e.g. low taxes, no interference in the market by the state). "Pure libertarians" probably want both (though I can't think of a good example of someone who has this philosophy), whereas left-libertarians favour the former and right-libertarians, the latter.
 

DerekC

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I think there are two branches of libertarianism, personal libertarianism (e.g. on matters of sexuality, abortion, freedom of immigration) and financial libertarianism (e.g. low taxes, no interference in the market by the state). "Pure libertarians" probably want both (though I can't think of a good example of someone who has this philosophy), whereas left-libertarians favour the former and right-libertarians, the latter.
Seems to me there are more dimensions to the problem than that. For instance where does Musk's "absolute freedom of speech" fit? And many with rightist views on sexuality, abortion etc. think that "the rich" should be taxed more and are in favour of the NHS.
 

gg1

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I think there are two branches of libertarianism, personal libertarianism (e.g. on matters of sexuality, abortion, freedom of immigration) and financial libertarianism (e.g. low taxes, no interference in the market by the state). "Pure libertarians" probably want both (though I can't think of a good example of someone who has this philosophy), whereas left-libertarians favour the former and right-libertarians, the latter.

The US Libertarian Party were historically close to what you describe as "pure libertarianism", though they've moved to the right in recent years.

Most self described libertarians do seem to be firmly right wing these days though.
 

nw1

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Seems to me there are more dimensions to the problem than that. For instance where does Musk's "absolute freedom of speech" fit? And many with rightist views on sexuality, abortion etc. think that "the rich" should be taxed more and are in favour of the NHS.

I was specifically talking about what I see as the two flavours of libertarianism. Those with socially right-wing views but in favour of taxing the rich more could be seen as outside the libertarian spectrum entirely.
 

Purple Train

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And many with rightist views on sexuality, abortion etc. think that "the rich" should be taxed more and are in favour of the NHS.
Indeed, but then a fair few of them also tend to have rightist views on immigration and so on, and the factions end up becoming more and more split: in that sense, I'm glad I'm politically homeless, so that I have no real need to wade into this sort of murk! I do think that it is the more socially conservative left that lack an obvious party, as opposed to the liberal left, but I suppose that there's just an element of "grass is greener" rather than any considered thinking behind that.
I was specifically talking about what I see as the two flavours of libertarianism. Those with socially right-wing views but in favour of taxing the rich more could be seen as outside the libertarian spectrum entirely.
I'd agree with this - although I prefer "liberal" and "conservative" to "libertarian" and "authoritarian", simply because the latter connotes dictatorships and I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. I do find it interesting that the left-conservative quarter tends to be seen as a strange paradox, given my belief is that a move too far down the political compass is intrinsically right-wing, as it fosters a more individualised society, but I'm probably the last person in the world to consult on how normal society operates!
 

brad465

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philthetube

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How do you make that assumption? Farms are traditionally asset rich but cash poor.

Because why would you hold an asset worth millions of it only returns £32k per year? An asset is, generally, valued at the current value of the future cashflow it will generate. £32k equates to an asset value of around £500k, give or take.
The answer is the same as it would be if the question was, why spend four years at uni to be a nurse or a social worker?

the answer being, because it is a vocation. Certainly for farmers who will be paying this tax.

Big farms belong to corps or similar business things which will not be paying the tax.
 

nw1

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As someone who dislikes both Badenoch and Farage, is it possible for both to lose in this one? :lol:

The Right-Wing Populist Front versus the Populist Front of the Right. ;)

Seriously, I think I'd like Farage to lose, out of the two. I consider him by far the most dangerous.
 

MotCO

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The answer is the same as it would be if the question was, why spend four years at uni to be a nurse or a social worker?

the answer being, because it is a vocation. Certainly for farmers who will be paying this tax.

Big farms belong to corps or similar business things which will not be paying the tax.
Vocation does not pay tax - profits do, and profits are very small relative to assets employed. The target Rate of Return for a normal industry is typically between 5% and 10%; for the farming sector in 2022/23, it was 0.5% https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...-performance-england-202223-statistics-notice.

How do you propose that farmers pay the IHT tax with?
 

simonw

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The answer is the same as it would be if the question was, why spend four years at uni to be a nurse or a social worker?

the answer being, because it is a vocation. Certainly for farmers who will be paying this tax.

Big farms belong to corps or similar business things which will not be paying the tax.
Going to university doesn't cost millions.
 

Harpo

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Badenoch’s silence after Jenrick’s astonishingly devisive comments during the last 24 hours is not a good look.
 

DarloRich

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More helpful Conservative news: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn7r7pjy8j1o

Former Prime Minister Liz Truss has sent a legal "cease and desist" letter to Sir Keir Starmer demanding he stop saying she "crashed the economy".

Her lawyers argue the claim made repeatedly by Sir Keir is "false and defamatory" and harmed her politically in the run-up to losing her South West Norfolk seat in the general election.

Truss was the UK's shortest-serving PM, forced to resign after just 49 days in office when borrowing costs soared in the aftermath of her government's mini-budget.
 

takno

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Quite right, it was all due to a left wing conspiracy against her, emanating from those notorious hotbeds of Marxism The Bank of England and the City of London.

Even the lettuce was in on it.
As part of a rearguard action to stay in the news I suppose it has a degree of merit. It's definitely less pathetic than the current actual leadership celebrating because Badenoch tweeted something so deranged that Elmo retweeted it.
 

MotCO

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Quite right, it was all due to a left wing conspiracy against her, emanating from those notorious hotbeds of Marxism The Bank of England and the City of London.

Even the lettuce was in on it.
Truss was accused of 'crashing the economy' because the 10 year bond rates rose to 4.747%. The rates today, under Rachel Reeves, are 4.796%. So why isn't Reeves being accused of being worse than Truss and 'crashing the economy'?

(No, it's not the £22bn fictitious black hole, fixing the foundations, 14 year's Tory rule etc. The spending plans set out in Reeves' Budget included a lot of discretionary spend which did not need to be committed - e.g. foreign aid for farmers, untested carbon capture of £22bn (we capture it while other countries keep producing it), foreign climate change aid of £11.6bn. Need I go on?)
 

Yew

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Truss was accused of 'crashing the economy' because the 10 year bond rates rose to 4.747%.
I am unsure that the accusations are based solely on bond rates?
 

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