Hulley's of Baslow

[zkyx02]

The interactions I’ve had with Hulleys have been dire, I caught a driver using his phone about 4 times while driving on a 257, so I reported it to hulleys & they said it was going to be dealt with.. to my surprise the driver picked me up on a 170 a few weeks later! I wished I had passed the information on to the police so they could deal with it.

But the buses are extremely dirty & more often than not extremely slow, drivers look scruffy (I don’t think the company has/had a uniform..) & the attitude of some is just appalling.

 

[mayneway]

The interactions I’ve had with Hulleys have been dire, I caught a driver using his phone about 4 times while driving on a 257, so I reported it to hulleys & they said it was going to be dealt with.. to my surprise the driver picked me up on a 170 a few weeks later! I wished I had passed the information on to the police so they could deal with it.

But the buses are extremely dirty & more often than not extremely slow, drivers look scruffy (I don’t think the company has/had a uniform..) & the attitude of some is just appalling.

To be fair you don’t know it wasn’t dealt with. Was the driver using his phone when you came across him on the 170??

 

[Trainman40083]

To be fair you don’t know it wasn’t dealt with. Was the driver using his phone when you came across him on the 170??

When you see reports of lorry drivers being stopped by the police for using a hand held device at the wheel, it usually ends badly for the driver. Of course, now the offence is actually holding the device.

 

[Flange Squeal]

It isn’t just the cancelling of services due to operational issues which drives customers away. I don’t use many routes operated by Hulley’s but I find the regular changes of routes and timetables over the last few years confusing and often inconvenient. They don’t seem to give a route or timetable chance to settle down and attract passengers before changing it. Even more popular routes like the 55, 170 and 257 seem to have constant changes. What works for a passenger one month has gone the next so people can’t be sure that their bus to work is still going to be running even a few weeks ahead.

The lack of maps I feel don’t help with this as you have to try and work out amendments to routings yourself. If things are going to get changed frequency, a simple network map showing all routes would offer a visual help.

 

[mayneway]

When you see reports of lorry drivers being stopped by the police for using a hand held device at the wheel, it usually ends badly for the driver. Of course, now the offence is actually holding the device.

Bigger ops like Stagecoach treat complaints very seriously and always dismiss the driver and report to the Traffic commissioner but having worked for smaller ops also I’ve found they tend to have a ‘quiet’ word and it goes no further.

If the police are involved it’s a different matter.

 

[markymark2000]

You can do well out of contracted services depending what part of the country you’re in. Operators like Stotts in Oldham gave up everything they did commercially to focus on contracted services to TFGM and they make a decent return.

Derby county council arnt the best though. They expect everything to be on a shoestring.

Depends on the penalties too. I know a number of authorities whereby fines can be issues for early running, late running (without good reason), dropped trips (fine plus deduction for lost mileage), any passenger not properly logged on the machine, destination display issues.
Depending whether Derbyshire Council has penalties and how good they are at monitoring to imposter penalties, Hulleys could be being heavily penalised for not operating trips and their punctuality when they do run, doesn't seem to be the best.

 

[darloscott]

Depends on the penalties too. I know a number of authorities whereby fines can be issues for early running, late running (without good reason), dropped trips (fine plus deduction for lost mileage), any passenger not properly logged on the machine, destination display issues.
Depending whether Derbyshire Council has penalties and how good they are at monitoring to imposter penalties, Hulleys could be being heavily penalised for not operating trips and their punctuality when they do run, doesn't seem to be the best.

I think you over estimate the capabilities of councils these days. They wouldn’t know if a journey didn’t run unless someone told them. I worked for North Yorkshire for two years and while we never ever lost any mileage, I get the impression they’d never find out anyway. I don’t think NYC have more than 3 or 4 people working in the entire transport team there, both public and schools!

 

[northern506]

I think you over estimate the capabilities of councils these days. They wouldn’t know if a journey didn’t run unless someone told them. I worked for North Yorkshire for two years and while we never ever lost any mileage, I get the impression they’d never find out anyway. I don’t think NYC have more than 3 or 4 people working in the entire transport team there, both public and schools!

Some of the drivers on Hodgsons services don’t even give out tickets - so I’d imagine if services are withdrawn due to low usage, that will be why.

 

[markymark2000]

I think you over estimate the capabilities of councils these days. They wouldn’t know if a journey didn’t run unless someone told them. I worked for North Yorkshire for two years and while we never ever lost any mileage, I get the impression they’d never find out anyway. I don’t think NYC have more than 3 or 4 people working in the entire transport team there, both public and schools!

Granted some authorities may never find out (some have the fines policy in place but don't monitor routes so no one gets fined). Some however can be more hot on it though such as TFGM and Merseytravel for example.

If Derbyshire is a better authority in that respect, it could be costing Hulleys. If Derbyshire is like North Yorkshire Council, it won't matter and will not be a contributing factor to how well they do off tenders.

 

[mayneway]

I think you over estimate the capabilities of councils these days. They wouldn’t know if a journey didn’t run unless someone told them. I worked for North Yorkshire for two years and while we never ever lost any mileage, I get the impression they’d never find out anyway. I don’t think NYC have more than 3 or 4 people working in the entire transport team there, both public and schools!

Agree. TFGM are OTT in Manchester fining for anything and everything where as in Derbyshire they really don’t care. When we ran a contracted service for DCC it was working with an authority stuck in the dark ages. Took days to get answers to very basic questions. They simply have very little interest in public transport.

 

[JD2168]

The more immediate question is what will replace the e200 mmcs?

A solo and an e400 have returned from Go Coach this week after being there some time having work done. There is also a 60 plate ex Stagecoach London Solo.

I would think at least 2 more additional vehicles will be needed to replace the remaining e200mmcs.

There are reports that Hulleys have taken a Solo on loan from Connexions Buses ex London, similar to the batch Wellglade have bought for TM Travel

 

[JKP]

Agree. TFGM are OTT in Manchester fining for anything and everything where as in Derbyshire they really don’t care. When we ran a contracted service for DCC it was working with an authority stuck in the dark ages. Took days to get answers to very basic questions. They simply have very little interest in public transport.

DCC were once an authority interested in public transport with well qualified staff. However, these staff have left or retired and suspect that the staff now overseeing public transport either lack the knowledge and experience of bus operations or there are simply not enough staff and those there are dealing with policy issues rather than day to day matters.

 

[Cesarcollie]

How much do bus companies make from contract routes? Presumably enough to make a profit otherwise they wouldn't bother.

It rather depends on the price they bid!

The vehicles are not expensive. Minstrel virtually gives them away, and in most cases with subsidised and contracted work it can be better to lease or rent vehicles than it can be to own, especially when you’re leasing new vehicles with warranties. The only downside is ADL have gone from a response time of 48 hours to around 10 days now.

‘Mistral virtually gives them away’? Really? Evidence please!

 

[mayneway]

‘Mistral virtually gives them away’? Really? Evidence please!

How do you think they work?
They buy up dealer stock and lease it out to operators.

 

[Cesarcollie]

How do you think they work?
They buy up dealer stock and lease it out to operators.

They buy stock from manufacturers, and lease it to operators using a model that includes depreciation, cost of capital, and a profit margin. I’m not sure that equates to ‘giving it away’……. It suits the particular circumstances of some operators/contracts, but long term is invariably more expensive than outright purchase.

 

[mayneway]

They buy stock from manufacturers, and lease it to operators using a model that includes depreciation, cost of capital, and a profit margin. I’m not sure that equates to ‘giving it away’……. It suits the particular circumstances of some operators/contracts, but long term is invariably more expensive than outright purchase.

Depends which way you look at it.

 

[MotCO]

They buy stock from manufacturers, and lease it to operators using a model that includes depreciation, cost of capital, and a profit margin. I’m not sure that equates to ‘giving it away’……. It suits the particular circumstances of some operators/contracts, but long term is invariably more expensive than outright purchase.

And also a cost for the downtime when it is not rented.

Depends which way you look at it.

The only benefit for operators is presumably you do not have the hassle of disposing of it.

 

[mayneway]

The only benefit for operators is presumably you do not have the hassle of disposing of it.

Exactly. Contracts can end abruptly and buses can simply be returned to the leasing company just like Hulleys have done with the MMC’s.

 

[derbybusdepot]

Exactly. Contracts can end abruptly and buses can simply be returned to the leasing company just like Hulleys have done with the MMC’s.

Or can be gained quite suddenly. They can specify an age limit too, another reason to hire them.

There are so many variables it is always going to be possible to justify buying/leasing depending on requirements - that's why bus companies do both.

I'm guessing Hulleys hired them to improve fleet reliability, and partially a bit of a vanity project to say look we've got all these new buses.

There is also the Sheffield low emission zone which they operate into, but the 15 year old ex London Solo is also fine to operate there too! 4 of those solos will cost less to run than leasing 4 brand new e200s. And by the sounds of it, even if one terminally expires you can likely replace it quicker than getting adl out!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't think it has been noted but on 20 Dec the loan secured on Henry Hulleys & Sons Ltd was paid off in full. They have no secured loans now.
Similarly, the Go-Coachhire Ltd loan was also paid off on the same date and so something has / is happening.

Hulleys Filing History

View attachment 171794

It was a floating charge from a business lender, set up in August 2024, which specialised in lending to small businesses that may not have access to more mainstream funding.

There's possibly something going on, but being able to clear that sort of financing doesn't indicate immediate financial distress.

4 of those solos will cost less to run than leasing 4 brand new e200s. And by the sounds of it, even if one terminally expires you can likely replace it quicker than getting adl out!

It will be cheaper- the leasing company will have now just repaid the depreciation on a 60-plate Solo, so the lease can be cheaper whilst still making a profit. But the difference will be less than you'd expect: remember the leasing company's depreciation is linear over 14 or 15 years.

 

[MotCO]

It was a floating charge from a business lender, set up in August 2024, which specialised in lending to small businesses that may not have access to more mainstream funding.

Is it possible the floating loan has been replaced by a more mainstream loan?

 

[Trainman40083]

Is it possible the floating loan has been replaced by a more mainstream loan?

Could just be a restructuring type loan, to deliver change which has been delivered. (Whatever that might look like).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is it possible the floating loan has been replaced by a more mainstream loan?

If it has, it isn't secured, which would be surprising.

The lender and the short duration of the loan indicates that it's probably more likely to have been a bridging loan. Maybe this was to assist with cashflow or assist with a specific one-off expense. Either way, being able to repay it doesn't indicate immediate financial distress but it is notable that it coincides with the former owners of Go-Coach being rumoured to have taken back control of that business.

 

[m79900]

Could Hulleys start advertising on buses again, both externally and internally? Could help bring in a bit of money.

 

[Trainman40083]

For those who are not aware. The owner of Hulleys has issued a statement to quell speculation as to what is happening. Although I have been forwarded the statement, I do not know where it has been originally posted, so cannot link. But the statement is clear and does explain why there has been the action taken. ..

Could Hulleys start advertising on buses again, both externally and internally? Could help bring in a bit of money.

Hopefully not Vape adverts though, like another operator. But you wonder these days if companies are more into on line advertising than on bus.

 

[Mwanesh]

It's no longer owned by Hulley's.

Who owns it now

 

[Trainman40083]

Who owns it now

Their former owner.

 

[Mwanesh]

Gets interesting then if you got a massive increase in fuel prices in year 2, and industries that offer better pay and conditions in different market sectors.


Interesting about the response time extension. So what does that convey? There is an increase in warranty repairs across ADL users, buses are less reliable than they were, manufacturing costs have been cut (and shows up in increased failures). So, you could see another manufacturer with a, as cheap, product, with better quality, less warranty repairs come in and take future business. But what would be a worry is, if that response time was 10 days, what would happen with an operator who could not run their advertised services without those buses?

There is a shortage of fitters countrywide.Most bus companies are operating on agency fitters on fixed contracts and local to their area.

 

[tram21]

For those who are not aware. The owner of Hulleys has issued a statement to quell speculation as to what is happening. Although I have been forwarded the statement, I do not know where it has been originally posted, so cannot link. But the statement is clear and does explain why there has been the action taken. ..

Are you able to summarise what was said?

 

[Trainman40083]

Are you able to summarise what was said?

I'd rather people read it for themselves. I've not yet seen where it was originally posted ..Let me say, it explains a lot about what has had to happen.