Passengers forcing their way off stranded trains

[Howardh]

I think the bottom line is this simple - the TOC's from the top down to the guards should treat the passengers/customers/human beings exactly as they would wish to be treated themselves.

Being "trapped" on a train for any length of time is uncomfortable, and can be hellish. Prisoners get treated better. Why should passengers suffer when it's not their fault (and they have paid to travel, not stand still)?

So keep the passengers informed. Be visible, if there is a guard, let's have him patrolling the carriages. That's what he's paid for, right?? And also, treat the passengers as you would cattle, ie at some point they have the be fed and watered, but make that a LEGAL requirement.

If you don't want Joe Public wandering around the tracks, then it's up to the staff to fill in the information, and treat them with the respect they deserve.

 

[CosherB]

Once again we have railway people blaming their passengers for showing a perfectly understandable reaction to complete incompetance by the railway company.

Why was the train stuck for so long?

If it broke down, why was it so long before it was moved to the nearest station (pushed by another train if neccessary) so the passengers could get off?

Why were the passengers not kept fully informed of what was going on?

The railways really do need to get their act together in keeping passengers informed when things go wrong. People who know something is being done are unlikely to take matters into their own hands. If you percieve that you at the mercy of a bunch of idiots, you do what you can to get yourself out of that situation.

It is entirely unreasonable for the railway to expect passengers to sit there for hours, like a bunch of inanimate freight, overheated, maybe no working toilets, thirsty, and frustrated and with no information! Of course the passengers are going to get the hell out of there!

 

[EM2]

Yet again, I raise the point that in the incident at Woking, the passengers said they were given updates by the driver EVERY FIVE MINUTES and still decided to bail...

 

[ushawk]

I think the bottom line is this simple - the TOC's from the top down to the guards should treat the passengers/customers/human beings exactly as they would wish to be treated themselves.

Then why cant the passengers treat Railway staff with a bit more respect ?

 

[DarloRich]

Then why cant the passengers treat Railway staff with a bit more respect ?

Because railway staff are not lower/middle management supermen who think they rule the world and are, therefore by definition, scum and therefore a mere functionary

TBH would these people like me to walk into their office and tell them how to fill in their spread sheets or how to do their deals or how spout the latest bit of management speak bullsh*t that they don’t understand - No

OK then why not do the same here. Why do you think you are better placed to advise on railway operations than experienced railway professionals? These are people who know what they are talking about but you don’t seem to want to listen.

Even when you give people information they are not happy. They want to know EXACTLY when the train will be moving. Simply I am sorry but there has been a fault, we are trying to repair it isn’t enough. I would be interested to know exactly what information people want. No one seems to have suggested a template for what passengers should be told.

I am sure they think there is a big Haynes manual of railway failures.

Yes sir; one x stolen cable ( length 57 m), page 44567 diagram 2 - you will be moving in exactly 49 minutes.

 

[CosherB]

It seems it might do some rail persons on here a deal of good to spend a few years working in a service industry where if you don't treat your customers with respect you loose their business becuase they go to your competitors. Then you have no job.

SOME railpersons on here (far from all) seem to think that because they know the technical side of running a railway, the world owes them a living!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It seems it might do some rail persons on here a deal of good to spend a few years working in a service industry where if you don't treat your customers with respect you loose their business becuase they go to your competitors. Then you have no job.

SOME railpersons on here (far from all) seem to think that because they know the technical side of running a railway, the world owes them a living!

Or perhaps it might do you some good to work in the rail industry where you have far more difficult situations to deal with than any other non-transport service industry.

 

[CosherB]

Or perhaps it might do you some good to work in the rail industry where you have far more difficult situations to deal with than any other non-transport service industry.

See what I mean? A very well balanced view (big chip on EACH shoulder) "my job is far more difficult than anyone else's so I'm entitled to treat customers exactly how I like". :roll:

Lake Reality is over to the left, my son. Go take a very long swim.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

See what I mean? A very well balanced view (big chip on EACH shoulder) "my job is far more difficult than anyone else's so I'm entitled to treat customers exactly how I like". :roll:

Lake Reality is over to the left, my son. Go take a very long swim.

I don't work in the rail industry, yet I am blessed with the intelligence to understand the pressure and constraints they work under. So, perhaps aim your misplaced anger at the people who cause the long delays? Namely the passengers who decide to jump off and wander along the railway because they're so much more important than everybody else.

 

[CosherB]

I don't work in the rail industry, yet

And with an attitude like that, let's pray you never do.

So, perhaps aim your misplaced anger at the people who cause the long delays? Namely the passengers who decide to jump off and wander along the railway because they're so much more important than everybody else.

My point above was nothing to do with people jumping off, it was an expression of amazement at your sweepingly arrogant statement (I quote) "in the rail industry where you have far more difficult situations to deal with than any other non-transport service industry".

Apart from the worrying attitude that statement shows, one has to ask; how do you know that's the case? Have you worked in every other non-transport service industry?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Apart from the worrying attitude that statement shows, one has to ask How you know? Have you worked in every other non-transport service industry?

Very few non-transport service industries have people relying on you to do your job and make split second decisions which people are relying on you to make correctly in order to stay safe, and alive.

 

[DarloRich]

Even when you give people information they are not happy. They want to know EXACTLY when the train will be moving. Simply I am sorry but there has been a fault, we are trying to repair it isn’t enough. I would be interested to know exactly what information people want. No one seems to have suggested a template for what passengers should be told.

Anybody got a template for the information people want to hear? Tell us and we can see if it can be done.

Do you know what information you want? how often? What level of information? What detail? What length of announcement?

 

[Captain Chaos]

It seems it might do some rail persons on here a deal of good to spend a few years working in a service industry where if you don't treat your customers with respect you loose their business becuase they go to your competitors. Then you have no job.

SOME railpersons on here (far from all) seem to think that because they know the technical side of running a railway, the world owes them a living!

I have worked in the service industry for a living. I used to work in a small independant mobile phone store for 5 years. I dealt with the shop-front retail side of things but my main focus was on mobile phone repairs. The business eventually went under because phones were eventually being given away and no-one wanted them fixed anymore. It was not out of the ordinary to get some very difficult customers. One person threatened to slit my throat once because I was unable to back-up his data before commencing a software upgrade (the data was lost).

However since working on the railways I have to say that I have never come across an industry where the staff are treated with such contempt by it's regular users as the railways. No matter what you do it's never good enough and it never ceases to amaze me the amount of times your are looked down upon as being either thick, incompetent or lazy. (None of which I am and for anyone to call me thick is laughable). I get constantly told how to do my job and am expected to take it yet if I went into their offices and told them how to do their job I would expect hell to pay. We get shouted and sworn at over the slightest things but it's ok because "it's part of our job" for that to happen isn't it? On the odd rare occasion you may also get assaulted through no fault of your own on a packed train but when the police come no-one has seen anything despite it happening under their noses or they will say it was your fault for starting it "because you had the audacity to ask them for a ticket!". I have never worked in an industry where whatever you do, no matter how hard you try it's eithier wrong or not good enough.

It makes me wonder why I get up at 2AM for a shift knowing that at some point I am going to be hassled, abused, moaned at, sworn at, threatened or any other manner of things. Then I realise it's because despite the usual minority it's because I still love the job and feel a sense of pride in helping running the service and keeping the country going. There's not many jobs you can really say that about imo. It's miles better than some depressing desk job writing spreadsheets for a boss who couldn't care less about you. I will be sad to leave eventually once I have completed by studies but that is what I have decided to do. I have to say that it will be an experience I will never forget working on the railway. It's just a shame that some of the people whom regularly abuse, shout at us etc can't see themselves in the mirror. They would be ashamed of themselves.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Lake Reality is over to the left, my son. Go take a very long swim.

(big chip on EACH shoulder) "my job is far more difficult than anyone else's so I'm entitled to treat customers exactly how I like". :roll:

it was an expression of amazement at your sweepingly arrogant statement

And with an attitude like that, let's pray you never do.

But it IS inherantly intolerent of fools, so I wouldn't persue a career there if I were you.

and maturity than you (judging by your posts) could muster

Point proved I think.

 

[CosherB]

I have worked in the service industry for a living. I used to work in a small independant mobile phone store for 5 years. I dealt with the shop-front retail side of things but my main focus was on mobile phone repairs. The business eventually went under because phones were eventually being given away and no-one wanted them fixed anymore. It was not out of the ordinary to get some very difficult customers. One person threatened to slit my throat once because I was unable to back-up his data before commencing a software upgrade (the data was lost).

However since working on the railways I have to say that I have never come across an industry where the staff are treated with such contempt by it's regular users as the railways. No matter what you do it's never good enough and it never ceases to amaze me the amount of times your are looked down upon as being either thick, incompetent or lazy. (None of which I am and for anyone to call me thick is laughable). I get constantly told how to do my job and am expected to take it yet if I went into their offices and told them how to do their job I would expect hell to pay. We get shouted and sworn at over the slightest things but it's ok because "it's part of our job" for that to happen isn't it? On the odd rare occasion you may also get assaulted through no fault of your own on a packed train but when the police come no-one has seen anything despite it happening under their noses or they will say it was your fault for starting it "because you had the audacity to ask them for a ticket!". I have never worked in an industry where whatever you do, no matter how hard you try it's eithier wrong or not good enough.

It makes me wonder why I get up at 2AM for a shift knowing that at some point I am going to be hassled, abused, moaned at, sworn at, threatened or any other manner of things. Then I realise it's because despite the usual minority it's because I still love the job and feel a sense of pride in helping running the service and keeping the country going. There's not many jobs you can really say that about imo. It's miles better than some depressing desk job writing spreadsheets for a boss who couldn't care less about you. I will be sad to leave eventually once I have completed by studies but that is what I have decided to do. I have to say that it will be an experience I will never forget working on the railway. It's just a shame that some of the people we regularly get abused, shouted at etc can't see themselves in the mirror. They would be ashamed of themselves.

There is absolutely no excuse for staff to be mistreated as you describe. I find most rail staff to be polite and helpful, with just the occassional 'jobsworth'. Generally, if you treat people as you would want to be treated, they will reciprocate (with some exceptions, of course).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Point proved I think.

Glad you agree - at last!

 

[EM2]

It seems it might do some rail persons on here a deal of good to spend a few years working in a service industry where if you don't treat your customers with respect you loose their business becuase they go to your competitors. Then you have no job.

SOME railpersons on here (far from all) seem to think that because they know the technical side of running a railway, the world owes them a living!

As a rail person in a customer service role, and one who has also been in service industries in one sector or another since 1988, maybe I'm quite well placed.
And I can tell you that during a disruption is the hardest I have had to work in that time. You are having questions fired at you left, right and centre almost constantly, while you are trying to find alternatives for people who want to get other services from other stations. Is my ticket valid? Where do I change? What time will I get home? Why aren't there replacement buses? Who do I write to to complain?
You're also trying to get updates on the problem from a control centre that's getting the same requests from every other station, while also trying to get a plan of action to sort the problem out.
Most other industries you're dealing with one problem for one customer at one time (Why is my advert wrong? Why does my garage door not work? Why has the zip broken on my trousers? Where's my delivery of lightbulbs?), although I'd admit a major server failure in IT could be seen as similar.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Glad you agree - at last!

Yes, I'm glad we agree on your immaturity.

 

[Captain Chaos]

There is absolutely no excuse for staff to be mistreated as you describe. I find most rail staff to be polite and helpful, with just the occassional 'jobsworth'. Generally, if you treat people as you would want to be treated, they will reciprocate (with some exceptions, of course).

I disagree with the whole 'jobsworth' thing. Why should someone expect to be abused etc because they wish to do the job 'by the book'? That's like calling a surgeon a 'jobsworth' because he done an excellent job with a heart transplant as he done it in a text-book fashion. It's also funny that the only time the word 'jobsworth' gets bandied about is because said person couldn't get their own way. I find the term 'jobsworth' an insult in itself and have very little time for anyone who directs it towards me. It's the equivalent of children calling another child 'teacher's pet' or a 'nerd' for being a bright intelligent pupil, or for getting their homework in on-time or for having excellent attendance. It's just childish and is the adult version of throwing your toys out of the pram for not getting your own way.

 

[90019]

I don't work in the rail industry, yet I am blessed with the intelligence to understand the pressure and constraints they work under.

I don't work in the rail industry, yet

And with an attitude like that, let's pray you never do.

Congratulations, you can take posts out of context.
Would you like a medal?

 

[Kneedown]

I feel that you may have misunderstood me. There are many comments in here as to why its so dangerous for the passengers to de-train themselves, but thats clearly not the case when those hazards are removed.

The passengers are off the train where they feel safer than inside the train, and the actual risks inherent in being on the track have been removed. They are therefore safer outside than in, and the objections here are based on the needs of the railway against those of the passenger.

Let's assume that a 150 unit is brought to a halt due to an incident further down the line. No trains are running in either direction and the line is not electrified. After an hour the passengers get fed up and pull the emergency handle to release the doors. People start to detrain, trying to find a foothold as they climb down due to the fact that there are no sidesteps. Someone loses their footing (Highly likely as there are few places to find your footing and those are invariably covered in diesel and oil!) and the unfortunate persons leg catches on the driveshaft under the unit which is rotating at goodness knows what RPM. The driveshaft catches the unfortunates footwear, and proceeds to pull them into the mechanism. A lost leg if they are fortunate but more likely catastrophic and non-survivable injuries.
The rest of the passengers detrain and gather in a field causing thousands of pounds worth of damage to crops.

The moral of this story for all those concerned is that no matter how clever you think you are, don't go steaming into situations that, in reality, you know **** all about!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

O L Leigh

I'm not ignoring your posts or being deliberately obtuse. I just haven't mastered the multiquote option and I tend to reply to posts rather than posters.

I'm staggered! You know all there is to know about safety on the railway and you can't multiquote?

 

[CosherB]

I disagree with the whole 'jobsworth' thing. Why should someone expect to be abused etc because they wish to do the job 'by the book'? That's like calling a surgeon a 'jobsworth' because he done an excellent job with a heart transplant as he done it in a text-book fashion. It's also funny that the only time the word 'jobsworth' gets bandied about is because said person couldn't get their own way. I find the term 'jobsworth' an insult in itself and have very little time for anyone who directs it towards me. It's the equivalent of children calling another child 'teacher's pet' or a 'nerd' for being a bright intelligent pupil, or for getting their homework in on-time or for having excellent attendance. It's just childish and is the adult version of throwing your toys out of the pram for not getting your own way.

I think you need to look up the definition of 'jobsworth'.

 

[DarloRich]

a person who uses their job description in a deliberately uncooperative way, or who seemingly delights in acting in an obstructive or unhelpful manner

Captain Chaos is right - it is amazning how often people become a "jobsworth" beccuase you dont like thier response

 

[CosherB]

a person who uses their job description in a deliberately uncooperative way, or who seemingly delights in acting in an obstructive or unhelpful manner

Captain Chaos is right - it is amazning how often people become a "jobsworth" beccuase you dont like thier response

That's a strange twist of logic isn't it? If someone is a jobsworth then they aren't really a jobsworth if you you don't like their response?

Are you one?

 

[DarloRich]

perhaps it is people using the wrong term to describe the situation. I am not to sure what you are trying to say in your post.

Perhaps i didnt set out my post very well. I was trying to put up a definition and make a response!

 

[CosherB]

Darlo, it's simple. Chaos accused me of being derogatory by accusing people who do their jobs as it should be done of being 'jobsworths'. I didn't. I parised the vast majority of rail workers but was derogatory about the occasional jobsworths.

Here's the Wiki definition of a jobsworth:


A jobsworth is a person who uses their job description in a deliberately uncooperative way, or who seemingly delights in acting in an obstructive or unhelpful manner.

Hardly someone doing their job well, I'd have thought.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

That's a strange twist of logic isn't it? If someone is a jobsworth then they aren't really a jobsworth if you you don't like their response?

Are you one?

It's really quite simple what he's saying - that people just call staff jobsworths because they do not like the response, even if they are trying their hardest to co-operate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Here's the Wiki definition of a jobsworth:

Perhaps that actual OED definition would be more helpful, and accurate:
A person in authority (esp. a minor official) who insists on adhering to rules and regulations or bureaucratic procedures even at the expense of common sense.

 

[CosherB]

Errr, isn't that what I just said? OED and Wiki seem to be in agreement.

It may be that some people unjustly accuse others of being jobsworths, just as they might wrongly accuse them of all sorts of things. But what's that got to do with the price of fish?

 

[EM2]

I think you need to look up the definition of 'jobsworth'.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines it as "A person in authority (esp. a minor official) who insists on adhering to rules and regulations or bureaucratic procedures even at the expense of common sense."
But the railway has something called a Rule Book. A Rule Book which has arrived at it's present form after almost two hundred years as an operational industry and taking on the lessons learned from every incident from Huskisson to Grayrigg. To do *anything* contrary to the Rule Book is inviting at best a 'Please Explain', which will remain on a personnel file for some time, and at worst instant dismissal.
*Everything* on the railway is based on the safety of everyone involved. Personally, I will adhere to the Rule Book, because yes, it IS more than my job, income, home, livelihood and pension is worth not to.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I think you need to look up the definition of 'jobsworth'.

Oh no believe me, i know the definition of the term 'jobsworth'. However when on the railways the term is always used in order to describe someone who is doing the job properly and by the book and is always bandied about when the result is not to the passengers liking.

Examples include:

Removing someone from 1st class for having a STD class ticket when there are plenty of seats available.

Enquiring about someone's age when they claim to be 15 and asking for a child ticket when you have just clearly seen a driving license in their wallet (a personal favourite of mine).

Charging someone who has an advance ticket for a completly different service (I am willing to give a bit of leeway on this one but when they turn up at 6 in the morning with an advance ticket for 12 in the afternoon then your buying a new ticket my friend)

There are of course many more I could probably list but these are the most common ones I tend to find.

It appears you didn't understand the point I was getting at. We are not being jobsworths, we are just doing our jobs. People just percieve us to be that way and call us as such when the situation arises.

 

[EM2]

Flying an aeroplane, however, takes far more decisiveness and maturity...

If you fly an aeroplane, answer me this from your own industry.

I was on a flight from Stansted to Dublin in 2007, a flight time of about 65-70 minutes. Once we were all on board, we were told there would be a delay as there was a problem with the toilet on the plane and we couldn't fly without an operational toilet but it would be fixed 'shortly'.
We had ONE announcement from the pilot after that, it turned out we were waiting for a part that was being delivered by the next (delayed) inbound flight from Dublin and we could take off once it had been fitted. Note that we hadn't been told this BEFORE boarding, so that anyone could go to the loo in the terminal, nor were we permitted off the plane once on board.
So we sat and waited. For ninety minutes. None of us could go to the loo, as we couldn't get off the plane and the toilet was out of use on board. It would have been QUICKER if we had taken off at the scheduled time, got to Dublin, landed and disembarked and anyone who needed to could have gone to the loo at Dublin!

So here's a straight comparison with the incidents that everyone has been complaining about on the railway.
It's a technical fault which is directly the fault of the airline.
The passengers are kept on board and not permitted to leave.
There is a lack of information.
No refreshments were provided.

Want to defend your industry?