Flinn Reed
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Livery under Great British Railways
- Thread starter OneTrackMinded
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Although I generally prefer uniform liveries with some variation to fit the train (ie. SBB) I wouldn't oppose colour-coding as we saw with South West Trains to differentiate services as long as they stick with the brand colours, in this case the red, white and blue. I'd even argue keeping the SWT formula of red for short distances, blue for medium distances, and white for long distances. However, having differing colours by region would be a bit much in my opinion.
If we end up with a rainbow of different colours I think it would undermine the goal of a single-unifying brand. Go with some form of the red, white and blue and stick with it I say. Some exceptions can be made such as with Merseyrail, and much as I might not agree with it I expect ScotRail to stick around lest Holyrood kick up a bit of a stink about it being absorbed by Great British Railways, but otherwise keep it as nationally unified as possible.
If we end up with a rainbow of different colours I think it would undermine the goal of a single-unifying brand. Go with some form of the red, white and blue and stick with it I say. Some exceptions can be made such as with Merseyrail, and much as I might not agree with it I expect ScotRail to stick around lest Holyrood kick up a bit of a stink about it being absorbed by Great British Railways, but otherwise keep it as nationally unified as possible.
I would argue that railway service designations shouldn't be too concerned with sounding corporate, and I personally think InterCity High Speed sounds like a reasonable service designation. I wouldn't oppose it all being under one InterCity designation with some trains exceeding 300km/h, but other European countries have their own flagship high speed rail branding so I think it only right Britain has it's own as well. I struggle to think of one myself right now though.
Wivenswold
Established Member
Maybe if we were in an era where GBR could offer funding for additional services/new routes/new trains in exchange for Wales and Scotland adopting the new livery schemes (whatever form they take) then it might be an easier sell.
However, we don't live in such times so I think there's a chance there won't be any new liveries for a while.
Do the TOCs own the intellectual copyright for their liveries? Could SWR (for example as theirs is one of the more complex colour schemes) insist that any rebranding would have to include the removal of the old livery and/or vinyls?
I'm too young to remember what happened last time, in 1948.
However, we don't live in such times so I think there's a chance there won't be any new liveries for a while.
Do the TOCs own the intellectual copyright for their liveries? Could SWR (for example as theirs is one of the more complex colour schemes) insist that any rebranding would have to include the removal of the old livery and/or vinyls?
I'm too young to remember what happened last time, in 1948.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I seem to recall more recent franchises were offered a choice of using a generic name and brand that could be passed onto the next franchisee, or using a specific one that would need to be removed at their cost. Unsurprisingly that's why generic names like Northern and TransPennine Express now rule the roost, and both of those brands passed near enough intact from private operators to DOR, the only one that needed changing being the word "northern" due to some sort of licensing issue with the font.
I believe all intellectual property owned by the pre-nationalisation railway companies went to British Railways upon nationalisation. IIRC they remained government-owned after privatisation and usage of such brand names as LNWR is under license from the DfT, as is the use of other geographical names such as the Island Line.
omnicity4659
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Various TOC’s intellectual property such as logos etc have been transferred to the DfT in recent years.
The reason for the rebrand was to differentiate the brand from the Arriva era, and according to the logo guidelines represent a “stronger, clearer approach” and is “stronger and more confident”.
There was no licensing issue with the Northern logo. The word “northern” wasn’t a font and was custom drawn, DfT held full rights for the logo as Arriva transferred them. Ironically, they now use a font in their logo which they have to licence.
The reason for the rebrand was to differentiate the brand from the Arriva era, and according to the logo guidelines represent a “stronger, clearer approach” and is “stronger and more confident”.
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Rick1984
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I'd go with Regional Express. I'd also stipulate some criteria for such service. Catering including basic warm food, seat pitch and comfort, luggage provision, number of tables, minimum 5 car trains.
Local for commuter trains not under a PTE.
So for me:
High Speed, InterCity, Regional Express, Regional, Local/PTE brand.
Standardisation is a dangerous request. The DfT will level it down to the cheapest and Routes that could sustain extra stuff will lose it.
Rick1984
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That's true
Wivenswold
Established Member
I agree, SW/S/SE divisions could apply but it does just seem to make a lot of sense to call 3rd rail land "Southern". GWR, LNER will probably stay but I can't see the latter including East Anglia this time. A stronger brand is needed for the WCML, "LMS" or "West Coast" I guess, Cross-Country makes sense for XC and TPE. East Anglia could be an interesting one, the stupid C2C brand will go, I can see them being consumed by whatever Greater Anglia becomes. It's too small an operation to justify it's own regional name.
My personal favourite is a return to the branding/liveries of the late 80s with local branding to be applied to that sector's livery. Though the Auqafresh NSE livery probably needs a less dated reinvention.
Flinn Reed
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I think there are advantages of keeping local identities for each part of the country, adapting from the current franchises. However if GBR want to simplify (but without the whole network using the same branding), something like this could work, basically merging franchises to a small number covering larger areas.
With ScotRail and TfW remaining as they are, the network in England (excluding the main north-south intercity services) could be reduced to just 4 brands:
- Northern (merging with TPE)
- Midlands - East and West midlands franchises, plus Chiltern)
- South West (GWR, SWR)
- South East - all GTR brands and incorporating services further to the east (Southeastern, C2C, Greater Anglia)
irish_rail
On Moderation
You simply cannot have Intercity without GWR. Arguably it's just as, if not more intercity than Avanti or LNER, most of Avantis services for example are sub 2 and a half hours. To condemn Paddington to Penzance to "regional" status whilst calling Euston to Wolverhampton "intercity" would be criminal. Same for most XC trains too, I definitely wouldn't leave them out. As for EMR TPE and Anglia that's more of a debate.
Class15
Established Member
EMR is definitely Intercity London-Sheffield and Nottingham - they even call their trains “EMR Intercity”! Anglia I think as well London-Norwich is intercity, TPE I’m not as convinced.
Intercity before privatisation IIRC was ECML, WCML, MML, GWML, GWML, XC and Gatwick Express.
Gat Ex has fallen by the wayside, and the GEML is debatable... XC is not a great way to get from place to place over a long distance quickly in a lot of cases, but it's probably still Intercity. The others are unquestionably IC.
Gat Ex has fallen by the wayside, and the GEML is debatable... XC is not a great way to get from place to place over a long distance quickly in a lot of cases, but it's probably still Intercity. The others are unquestionably IC.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
My view would be that the Liverpool-Newcastle fasts and the WCML services definitely are, but the rest more regional expresses.
TPE is basically XC, but centred on Manchester rather than Birmingham.
Wivenswold
Established Member
GEML London to Norwich was very much an "Intercity" sector line with Intercity stock (albeit cascaded from other lines). It's only since the introduction of EMUs in 2020 that it has a more regional express feel but it still has a buffet car and 1st Class. And the best new express trains in the UK.
Whether it would be classified as "Intercity" in the new GBR era remains to be seen. The dispute will be redundant if GBR keeps with current franchise areas as operating units.
Whether it would be classified as "Intercity" in the new GBR era remains to be seen. The dispute will be redundant if GBR keeps with current franchise areas as operating units.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
By no means all trains on the main lines you mention were Inter City.
They all had their share of commuter/regional services.
The trend since BR has been for long-distance services to call at more stations and become more "regional" in character.
Rolling stock is also more flexible in character, having multiple roles.
Class 80x trains are found running stopping services on GWR, and Norwich now has regional EMUs rather than Mk3 stock.
TfW uses IC Mk4 sets to Manchester/Holyhead, mixed in with DMUs on stoppers on the same routes.
Then there's HS1 and HS2 which have proper high speed trains...
Well their franchise does end on the 25 May. Got to make the effort to debrand the trains.
Mikey C
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The HS1 domestic trains might be the fastest in the country, but they're also commuter stock with 1/3 2/3 doors, operating stopping services once they leave HS1
True, but then surely we'd start seeing some all-white trains running, or trains at least with no SWR logo, right?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
SWR is a generic brand so can remain in use.
Right, but I thought the brands weren't going to remain in use, but be replaced entirely?
Okay then, I thought that was happening this May. I know I've seen that apparently the GBR brand is appearing this May (an article in the Times) and I've heard on here that people at Northern are being told to prepare for the new brand launch or something.
Trains will likely run in their current livery for quite some time. Always happens. There's still trains out there running in the London Midland livery, and London Midland ended in 2017. Someone in the know told me once that one of the versions of Northern had a plan to rebrand all its trains that took longer than its franchise.
It's going to take many years for everything to be painted in whatever livery GBR comes up with.
Excluding all the devolved operators (TfL, TfW, ScotRail, and perhaps Bee Network etc etc), it strikes me that surely the best plan is to have the old distinction between Intercity & Regional trains, with the latter having some broad geographical designation.
On that point and regarding SWR's incoming nationalisation, I am curious to see if a geographical designation/livery is applied to a showcase train at the formal launch which is rumoured this month, or if the livery will just be a plain "GBR" type. Further, I wonder that *if* geographical variations are rolled out, perhaps these variations will not be launched for a number of years, until a sufficient amount of the network is under GBR management.
On that point and regarding SWR's incoming nationalisation, I am curious to see if a geographical designation/livery is applied to a showcase train at the formal launch which is rumoured this month, or if the livery will just be a plain "GBR" type. Further, I wonder that *if* geographical variations are rolled out, perhaps these variations will not be launched for a number of years, until a sufficient amount of the network is under GBR management.