Not just FCC trying to charge for 1st class when it's not advertised

[embers25]

I travelled on the 1345 Norwich to Sheringham and then on the 1446 back from Sheringham to Norwich today. ON the way out the guard clipped my Anglia Plus Rover claiming she clipped all tickets including rovers so she could remember how far she had got with her checking! On the return trip I sat in 1st class on the 170 which as the Sheringham line has no first class I was perfectly allowed to do. When she came through she clipped my ticket again and asked me if I wished to pay a supplement to remain in First Class. Obviously I refused showing her both the printed and online timetables which clearly show no first class. She insisted that if any train had first class she could charge me the excess for sitting in it whether advertised or not. I again refused and she said that I should pay as the person sitting next to me(funnily enough a reader of this forum so well versed on FCC doing the same!) had a first class ticket and so that meant I had to have one too. Again I refused and she begrudgingly trudged off.

On arrival at Norwich I went to the customer service area and the guy couldn't believe it..or as he put it very well I thought "I'm not a guard or a ticket expert but even I know that the Sheringham line has no first class and so the section is declassified on any trains it is on"
He had me fill in a form to raise the complaint so I'll await their response.
I returned to the guard as she was about to leave on the 1550 and told her she needed to talk to her own customer service team as they agreed clipping rovers repeatedly and charging excesses was wrong and she insisted she was right and I should be grateful she hadn't forced me to pay!
She's now on the 1550 to Lowestoft which is one of the Lowestoft trains that doesn't have any first advertised!

 

[yorkie]

Hopefully she will be given suitable advice.

I suggest you follow this up if you do not hear back from them. It is disappointing that she did apologise after a colleague had confirmed she had made a mistake. If someone makes a mistake, but then either takes the time to to check it out and then apologises, or if when you tell them that they made a mistake and then apologises, then fair enough, we all make mistakes! But people who attempt to defraud customers of money and yet refuse to accept their mistake should, arguably, be dealt with in the same manner that a customer would be treated if they acted in a similar way, ie. prosecution. Until we have more parity/fairness in the contract between the TOCs and the passengers, I believe many people will simply pay up out of fear and not chase it up. I am glad to hear that you fought for your rights and were not defrauded.

If they do not respond soon, let me know if you would like some assistance in drafting up a follow-up letter.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If First Class is not advertised on the timetable, then you can sit in FC quite correctly without excessing. I know I am usually pro-staff, but it does surprise me that a conductor would not know what is actually quite a simple rule.

 

[Jordy]

I wonder what the "supplement" she wanted to charge would've been, given there are no first class fares on the route she shouldn't have been able to do an excess from standard to first...

 

[embers25]

I said to the guy in the customer service office that I believed it was just a training issue and he said to fill the form out as that was so basic she should have known and it needed to be followed up by a supervisor. I know this happens a fair bit on FCC but with 170's running around on many NXEA non-first class routes she has the potential to make lots of money and given she said she has used it frequently before this needs stopping. Last time I complained to NXEA a year ago they were very swift in responding and so I'm hoping for the same this time. Both things are so very basic and given I had the printed timetable and their website open this should have been a quick apology and on we go.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Both myself and the gentlemen who was in first with me both chuckled and wondered about what or how she would charge...I almost wish I'd asked! I got the impression it would be the weekend first supplement but we shall never know!

 

[exile]

For a while I travelled on (I think) EMT trains with unadvertised first class - bliss - everyone came in to the compartment, said "first class - can't sit here" and walked on.... even if I tried to persuade them it was OK....

 

[MCR247]

Probably on a exTPE 158

 

[lyesbkz]

the Sheringham line has no first class

the person sitting next to me had a first class ticket and so that meant I had to have one too.

How does this work? At a guess were they travelling further?

 

[Greenback]

If First Class is not advertised on the timetable, then you can sit in FC quite correctly without excessing. I know I am usually pro-staff, but it does surprise me that a conductor would not know what is actually quite a simple rule.

I agree. I too am surprised at this.

I wonder what the "supplement" she wanted to charge would've been, given there are no first class fares on the route she shouldn't have been able to do an excess from standard to first...

That's a very good question. If anyone else encounters this can they please ask?!

How does this work? At a guess were they travelling further?

I would guess that they had a London ticket!

 

[embers25]

Yep they were from Horsham.

 

[455driver]

In this case the guard is wrong so please follow it up, the problems start when some trains on a route have 1st class fares and some dont, how about Richmond and Twickenham to Waterloo, the Readings have 1st class fares the Windsors and Hounslow rounders are standard only, now the Windsors etc have the 450/5 on it isnt much of a problem but when I was a guard I used to announce that it was a standard class only service. It can still happen when a normal 450 turns up.

 

[embers25]

Just received my letter back from Nat Exp (See below). Unbelievably they claim the guard was right to try to charge me!!! Obviously I have called them back and raised this to management level.The manager I spoke too seemed equally surprised and promised to investigate with the relevant managers and said she'd reply within a week so I await their response. I explained that I thought that the reply may have been based on 170 routes with advertised first class sections but she confirmed the Sheringham train was clearly highlighted in my complaint and so there's no excuse. So much for open and shut case lol! I loved the line apologising if I felt disappointed!

 

[yorkie]

I am not at all surprised that they can't get it right.

Persue it, I say! If you'd like me to proof read the letter, just send me a PM.

NXEA gave several incorrect responses to another forum member, who did eventually get a correct reply. Their customer services department is clearly lacking knowledge.

I suggest you give them one final chance to rectify their answer before escalating it to Passenger Focus.

Unfortunately getting through to someone with even a modest level of knowledge can be challenging at some TOCs. The 'InterCity' TOCs seem a lot better at this.

 

[scotsman]

NXEA gave several incorrect responses to another forum member, who did eventually get a correct reply. Their customer services department is clearly lacking knowledge.

I really hope it's not the standard to be expected across the industry. I complained to ScotRail that Avantix did not have a certain plusbus fare (my mistake, as it turned out). I had bought onboard because the TVM did not take cash.

The reply I received was a very polite way of saying: "You were breaking the law and the NRCoC, be grateful you were sold a discounted ticket"

When I phoned them, they tried to tell me that I was breaking the law because I didn't have a debit or credit card on me when I tried to use the TVM...

 

[yorkie]

The standards I 'expect' vary considerably depending on the TOC, the area, and whether it's on board service, customer relations, ticket office, etc...

I don't often wite to customer relations but Virgin, EC and TPE have been good.

 

[FGW_Lad]

Thats why I'm glad Nat Express are off the ECML

 

[scotsman]

The standards I 'expect' vary considerably depending on the TOC, the area, and whether it's on board service, customer relations, ticket office, etc...

I don't often wite to customer relations but Virgin, EC and TPE have been good.

Ironically, the only time I'd write to ScotRail customer relations would be when I had issues with customer relations

 

[embers25]

I have heard it all now. This is the response from NXEA....

Further to your telephone call on Friday of last week I have now
investigated this further for you with our Conductor Management Team.

They have advised me that whilst this is advertised as not being a First
Class service there are occasions when the sets are changed and we use a
Class 170 3 car unit which will have First Class accommodation as part of
its capacity.

We do sell First Class tickets as a through journey for example London
Liverpool Street through to Cromer, and although we advertise that a part
of the journey may not have First Class accommodation on it, a customer who has a through ticket would be able to take advantage of this.

Anyone who holds a standard ticket will be required to pay the upgrade to
sit in First Class, and therefore they have confirmed that the Conductor
onboard has informed you correctly. In regards to being informed by the
Staff at Norwich Station that this would not be the case, I have forwarded
your comments onto the Station Manager so that they can speak to the staff in question and re-brief them on the policy.

Having spoken with the Conductor Management Team they also advised that the only other option available to us would be to lock the First Class facility out of use, however as stated above, tickets are sold as through journeys so if we do provide a First Class Service which would not normally be timetabled then Customers who have paid First Class can take advantage of this, and those that have not can also take advantage by paying the upgrade onboard.

Please accept my sincere apologies for any inconvenience or confusion
caused.

May I take this opportunity to thank you for taking the time to contact us.
Yours sincerely,
Lindsay Peachey
Customer Relations Team Manager


Time for passenger focus unless anyone has any better ideas as this is truly astounding.

 

[bb21]

I have heard it all now. This is the response from NXEA....

Further to your telephone call on Friday of last week I have now
investigated this further for you with our Conductor Management Team.

They have advised me that whilst this is advertised as not being a First
Class service there are occasions when the sets are changed and we use a
Class 170 3 car unit which will have First Class accommodation as part of
its capacity.

We do sell First Class tickets as a through journey for example London
Liverpool Street through to Cromer, and although we advertise that a part
of the journey may not have First Class accommodation on it, a customer who has a through ticket would be able to take advantage of this.

Anyone who holds a standard ticket will be required to pay the upgrade to
sit in First Class, and therefore they have confirmed that the Conductor
onboard has informed you correctly. In regards to being informed by the
Staff at Norwich Station that this would not be the case, I have forwarded
your comments onto the Station Manager so that they can speak to the staff in question and re-brief them on the policy.

Having spoken with the Conductor Management Team they also advised that the only other option available to us would be to lock the First Class facility out of use, however as stated above, tickets are sold as through journeys so if we do provide a First Class Service which would not normally be timetabled then Customers who have paid First Class can take advantage of this, and those that have not can also take advantage by paying the upgrade onboard.

Please accept my sincere apologies for any inconvenience or confusion
caused.

May I take this opportunity to thank you for taking the time to contact us.
Yours sincerely,
Lindsay Peachey
Customer Relations Team Manager


Time for passenger focus unless anyone has any better ideas as this is truly astounding.

I think this now needs to be taken further. Passenger Focus is a step forward. A letter to the chief executive I think is also warranted informing him/her of your disgust at the standard of training amongst their staff and the fact that you are taking the matter up with Passenger Focus.

 

[embers25]

Does anyone know the exact place in the NCoC where it states this as I am truly stunned they could be both that clueless and that money grabbing.

 

[swadbus]

This is just the sort of thing that researchers for BBC watchdog would be interested in.

Might be worth dropping an email there way?

 

[richw]

This is just the sort of thing that researchers for BBC watchdog would be interested in.

Might be worth dropping an email there way?

or which magazine!

 

[tony_mac]

I've looked before and never found anything that clearly says if it's not in the timetable then it isn't first class!

It is obviously a long-standing custom of the railway, but that's more difficult to prove.
Perhaps there is something in 'The Manual' about it?

 

[richw]

if there is no first class route, would there be a first class fare available?
another question if the route is not got a first class fare, therefore cant be put through the electronic system then was the excess fares going in the conductors pocket?

 

[AlterEgo]

For a second response, that is quite poor. The fact that an entire management team seem to have this opinion is concerning, and would suggest that the incident the OP described was not simply a mistake by one guard. The advice given is entirely incorrect!

I can only suggest Passenger Focus as a constructive way forward here. A letter to the chief executive informing them of your referral may grease the wheels somewhat!

 

[embers25]

Thats what I wondered. I figured it could just be NXEA money grabbing whereas everyone else follows the theory of first needing advertising. I remember many posts on here regarding FCC revenue protection staff trying to charge someone for sitting in First but didn't FFC say they couldn't

 

[bnm]

The only upgrade available is a NXEA 'Weekend First' at £7.00. 'The Manual' for this product states:

...any two stations served by a National Express East Anglia reservable mainline service

NXEA's own website says:

Weekend First Class Upgrade

On InterCity mainline services between Norwich, intermediate stations and London Liverpool Street, a Weekend First ticket allows you to upgrade to First Class for just £7 on a Saturday, Sunday, Bank Holidays and at Christmas.

Norwich to Sheringham is not an NXEA reservable mainline service. There are no 1st Class fares for this flow. Ergo, no 1st Class upgrade or Excess should be demanded or sold.

Just what could the conductor have demanded you pay if this was a weekday?

This absolutely stinks and I'm disgusted at the responses from NXEA.

 

[jon0844]

This is shocking. At least with FCC RPIs you can usually convince them that the service you're on hasn't got FC advertised and they'll move on - the problem being more to do with them not actually knowing what service they've boarded at any given time.

And at least FCC have also issued letters to confirm this for passengers to carry and have also confirmed this many times on their online forum.

I'm not saying FCC should get away with not checking the timetable and then issuing PFs, but there's something less dodgy about issuing a PF incorrectly when the person 'caught' had clearly intended not to pay (hence, not actually saying that they knew it was declassified). Still an invalid PF, sure, but you might almost argue it's justified. I see plenty of people who quite openly say 'f**k it, let's sit in first' when it happens to be declassified, but they clearly didn't know and will obviously do this on ANY service.

In the case of NXEA, there's a serious problem, made worse by there being no actual excess fare to charge!

 

[embers25]

I have just found it on one of their online forums :
http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.u...-us/meet-the-directors/15-apr-2011/?showall=1
(Question 77)

Does anynoe ahve a copy of one of their letters so I can send it to NXEA?

 

[transportphoto]

Is there anything in The FRPP (The Manual) or in the NRCoC which states that if its not advertised in the TT then its declassified?

TP

---

EDIT - I just had a thought, I will pop an email off to NX and ask a general question regarding this and see what reply I get (Email Sent)