Class 185 4 car unit

[graham43404]

First of all apologies if this has been mentioned before.

We are in Edinburgh and were just passing over the rail bridge at Princes Garden. There was a class 185 TPE coming into Waverly and both my wife and I are convinced we saw it as a 4 car unit. I am sure it has been done and seen before but its the first time I have known or seen it run as four.

Ps, we're not losing the plot are we?

 

[150222]

First of all apologies if this has been mentioned before.

We are in Edinburgh and were just passing over the rail bridge at Princes Garden. There was a class 185 TPE coming into Waverly and both my wife and I are convinced we saw it as a 4 car unit. I am sure it has been done and seen before but its the first time I have known or seen it run as four.

Ps, we're not losing the plot are we?

Well it would be abit difficult to say the least. No i think you imagined it. Are you sure it was not a 380?

 

[ainsworth74]

Well it's probably doable but you'd have to take the MSO out of an existing 185 unit to do it and I would have thought someone round here would have picked up on TPE doing that (and the fact that there would a a 2-car unit running around!). So I have to say it seems rather unlikely that you saw one

Having said that I sat in a 185 the other day and according to the signage on the windows I was sat in coach F!

 

[northwichcat]

Unless there has been an accident and a 185 centre car has been put in to another unit on a temporary basis then there is no 4 car 185.

However, anyone who can miscount carriages to be more than they actually are has a good chance of getting a high paid job at DfT.

 

[graham43404]

Well it would be abit difficult to say the least. No i think you imagined it. Are you sure it was not a 380?

It was a 185 for sure as I saw it from a distance and remarked about it coming from Man Airport and it was First TPE colours as well with its coupling bagged over at the front with a yellow tie. I said to my wife am I seeing things and she said she saw the same and that's before the whisky!

I am hoping it will be in Waverly in about another 20mins when we get back down there.

 

[Darandio]

Unless there has been an accident and a 185 centre car has been put in to another unit on a temporary basis then there is no 4 car 185.

Wasn't there one set out of action after the incident at Summit Tunnel earlier in the year? Or is that back in service now?

Although I do agree it is extremely unlikely that the OP did see a 4 car set, I am sure that the rareness of such a set would have already made headlines here or elsewhere.

 

[ainsworth74]

I am hoping it will be in Waverly in about another 20mins when we get back down there.

Unfortunately unless it's broken down it won't be as it should be departing at this moment back to Manchester.

 

[graham43404]

Unfortunately unless it's broken down it won't be as it should be departing at this moment back to Manchester.

You were right about that as it wasn't here when we got to the station.

I really wanted to see it for curiousity and for sanity's sake even though I know it must have been a three car unit.

 

[northernrail]

Wasn't there one set out of action after the incident at Summit Tunnel earlier in the year? Or is that back in service now?

Although I do agree it is extremely unlikely that the OP did see a 4 car set, I am sure that the rareness of such a set would have already made headlines here or elsewhere.

Its back in service, it left Manchester Picadilly for Manchester Airport about a hour ago.

 

[tbtc]

I sat in a 185 the other day and according to the signage on the windows I was sat in coach F!

The joys of using doubled up 185s on the Lancashire services and classing the coaches A-F (but not renaming them once the service splits)...

 

[ainsworth74]

The joys of using doubled up 185s on the Lancashire services and classing the coaches A-F (but not renaming them once the service splits)...

Ahh of course that would explain it wouldn't it! Why didn't I think of that?!

 

[Crossover]

I suspect it is a miscount - on a number of occasions I have counted the carriages twice to find on an occasion I have, say, counted a carriage twice by accident (at a shallow angle it can be hard to tell where one starts and the other ends)

That said, until someone can say for sure (TRUST will show these things won't they?) I'm not going to dismiss it, but I am going to say it is pretty unlikely.

 

[rail-britain]

I am not aware of a rail bridge at Princes Garden
From memory the views from the foot bridge at Princes Gardens aren't very good, so it could be mistaken for a six coach Class 185 or a pair of Class 158 units (if viewed from the side and on the embankment next to the rail line where the visibility is very poor)

I know I have watched trains going past when walking to/from NCP Castle Terrace and made some mistakes until on the other side of the bridge confirming exactly what I had seen

 

[graham43404]

I am not aware of a rail bridge at Princes Garden
From memory the views from the foot bridge at Princes Gardens aren't very good, so it could be mistaken for a six coach Class 185 or a pair of Class 158 units (if viewed from the side and on the embankment next to the rail line where the visibility is very poor)

It was the road bridge over the rail tracks that winds up towards the Royal Mile.

It was head onto us when coming from Haymarket to Waverley and right from the first second I could see it was a Class 185 with it's distinctive front and colour scheme. Like I say both of us are pretty sure we saw a 4 car train, but it was underneath us and out of sight due to the tunnel before we could check again.

Is there any mileage that TPE knew that a three car unti would struggle with it being the end of the Scottish Holidays and the start of the English ones? Or should I get that eye test booked soon?

 

[tbtc]

Is there any mileage that TPE knew that a three car unti would struggle with it being the end of the Scottish Holidays and the start of the English ones?

Sadly TPE know that a lot of their short trains will struggle (e.g. two coach DMUs between Sheffield and Manchester, three coach DMUs between Manchester and Leeds)... about the only place that gets trains that can comfortably cope with passenger numbers on most trips are the Barrow line (beyond Lancaster) and the Windermere branch.

I wish they had the resources to be able to mix/match service to demand like this. However even if they did have spare units,they'd probably run a six coach instead of a three (rather than splitting DMUs up - could a two-coach 185 even work?)

 

[MCR247]

Is there any mileage that TPE knew that a three car unti would struggle with it being the end of the Scottish Holidays and the start of the English ones?

Then wouldn't they also know that it would be better to have 2x 3 car units in service tan 1x 4 car unit


(Assuming a 2 car 185 won't work

 

[andylloyd]

On a seperate note.
Last week I noticed a double headed 185 service from Liverpool to Newcastle....
Very rare to see a six car 185 up in the North East

 

[sprinterguy]

On a seperate note.
Last week I noticed a double headed 185 service from Liverpool to Newcastle....
Very rare to see a six car 185 up in the North East

Where did you see this? There's only one direct train a day from Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle (at 06:15, the rest run from Manchester Airport) as far as I know, which runs as a pair of 185s to York and then splits with one unit going forward to Scarborough. A six-car formation would be unable to use any of the bay platforms at Newcastle that the TPE services normally use.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Remind me, who was it in their infinite wisdom, decided that 3-car Class 185 sets were preferable to 4-car Class 185 sets, when the contract had to be placed and their reasons for this justification.

 

[northwichcat]

Remind me, who was it in their infinite wisdom, decided that 3-car Class 185 sets were preferable to 4-car Class 185 sets, when the contract had to be placed and their reasons for this justification.

In their bid for the TPE franchise First Group stated 56 x 3 car DMUs with option to extend to 4 cars subject to demand, compared to Arriva's bid of 4 car DEMUs (likely would have been a class 223 similar to a Voyager or Meridian.)

The government decided to cut the TPE order to 51 trains, with the intention that the 170s that SWT didn't want would make up the numbers. In the end Southern took on an extra 170 to convert to a 171 and TPE got 8 x SWT 170s and 1 x CT 170.

Then when the option for the 4th car was looked at the government said sorry no funds. They later looked at the option again but it was too late as the production line for 185s had been shut down.

 

[sprinterguy]

Remind me, who was it in their infinite wisdom, decided that 3-car Class 185 sets were preferable to 4-car Class 185 sets, when the contract had to be placed and their reasons for this justification.

I believe it would have been the Strategic Rail Authority. The original proposal was for sixty 185s, but this was cut to fifty one 3-car units, with an option for an additional fourth carriage if demand warranted it. Unfortunately, the option for an additional carriage in each unit was never taken up, and the production line closed down. It was probably for the sake of ensuring a train order for the minimum cost.

 

[northwichcat]

Where did you see this? There's only one direct train a day from Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle (at 06:15, the rest run from Manchester Airport) as far as I know, which runs as a pair of 185s to York and then splits with one unit going forward to Scarborough. A six-car formation would be unable to use any of the bay platforms at Newcastle that the TPE services normally use.

Unless it was a Sunday, where the 20:22 service from Lime Street goes to Newcastle.

 

[150222]

Where did you see this? There's only one direct train a day from Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle (at 06:15, the rest run from Manchester Airport) as far as I know, which runs as a pair of 185s to York and then splits with one unit going forward to Scarborough. A six-car formation would be unable to use any of the bay platforms at Newcastle that the TPE services normally use.

I have just seen a 6 car 185 at darlington on the 16.48 to newcastle!

 

[Flying Snail]

They later looked at the option again but it was too late as the production line for 185s had been shut down.

That is a total cop-out.

The 185s are easily powerful enough to cope with an unpowered trailer being used as a fourth car. To add 51 185 compatible trailers on one of the later electric desiro production runs would not have been a major issue, except for the funding of course which is why we are stuck with 3 car sets that only seat 30 odd SC passengers more than a 2 car 158.

 

[tbtc]

That is a total cop-out.

The 185s are easily powerful enough to cope with an unpowered trailer being used as a fourth car. To add 51 185 compatible trailers on one of the later electric desiro production runs would not have been a major issue, except for the funding of course which is why we are stuck with 3 car sets that only seat 30 odd SC passengers more than a 2 car 158.

Instead of an unpowered coach, what about a pantograph coach from a 350 (if more 350s are built)?

A bi-mode 185?

 

[HSTEd]

would have to run on that coach alone under electric power due to the hydraulic transmissions.... even with all four axles powered it would be rather sluggish.

 

[sprinterguy]

I have just seen a 6 car 185 at darlington on the 16.48 to newcastle!

Good grief, that is quite a surprise! Must use one of the through platforms at Newcastle like the 6-car 158 formations (and some of the 5-car) of old used to.

 

[Scotrail84]

Defo only a 3 car. Mrs Scotrsil84 was on that said train.

 

[150222]

It definately was 6 car. I was stood on platform 3.

 

[142094]

Where did you see this? There's only one direct train a day from Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle (at 06:15, the rest run from Manchester Airport) as far as I know, which runs as a pair of 185s to York and then splits with one unit going forward to Scarborough. A six-car formation would be unable to use any of the bay platforms at Newcastle that the TPE services normally use.

The early morning service that goes direct from Newcastle to Liv Lime Street was formed of a 6-car service the last time I was on it. Caused a problem at Thirsk where the conductor had to lock out a couple of the doors due to the short platform. Might still be the case that this working is doubled up.