FCC again making it difficult for railcard holders

[button_boxer]

Perhaps have an additional screen for tickets that are not valid for immediate travel saying specifically that.

The machines at my local station (Derby) offer "tickets for tomorrow" from mid-afternoon onwards, and those do pop up a warning when you select one. By all means make the default ticket type on the front screen be the one that's valid now but have the others available with suitable restriction warnings.

And the appropriate ticket to offer can't necessarily be determined based just on the current time, for example if there's an evening peak restriction. If I'm at Derby at noon and I want to go to Birmingham then the machine will happily sell me an Off-Peak Day Return which is valid at that time. But if I want to come back between 15:30 and 18:15 then I actually need the slightly more expensive Off-Peak (not Day) Return.

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely they're breaching the impartiality rules by refusing to sell railcard discounted tickets before 1000?

I think not selling a ticket because there is a time limit is nothing to do with impartiality.

Impartiality is more to do with treating all TOCs equally - for instance SWT refusing to sell you a XC ticket.

Subtle difference, but I think that's how impartiality is defined from the railway's perspective...

 

[RJ]

Subtle difference, but I think that's how impartiality is defined from the railway's perspective...

Impartiality is defined in the Retail Standards Guide document.

 

[swt_passenger]

Impartiality is defined in the Retail Standards Guide document.

Any chance you could summarise what it says?

 

[RJ]

I don't have access to it at the moment, it was something I printed out and perused when I was in the ticket office, might've changed since then!

One of our retail staff members, or someone else with access to it may be able to assist...!

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=e...ite:railforums.co.uk+"retail+standards+guide"

 

[stut]

Well, my local (FCC) machine is hardly clear about restrictions. Here's a description. And bear in mind that the ticket office is open very limited hours.

You can buy a ticket for the next morning, but that's peak only during the week. It doesn't warn you when you've selected a ticket for tomorrow, meaning that if somebody's selected it before you arrive without cancelling, you're inadvertently buying a ticket for tomorrow, not today as you'd expect (as has happened before).

If, however, you select a ticket for today, the front screen will display a selection appropriate to the time of day. If you drill down to the "search by destination" screen, however, it will offer all tickets valid on that day (so it will offer an off-peak ticket in the peak, but it won't offer a super off-peak ticket at the weekend).

If you select an off-peak ticket, it will give the following explanation (roughly):

"Outbound: Valid at and after 0930, with exceptions.
Return: Valid at and after 0930, some evening restrictions."

Nowhere outside the (locked most of the day) ticket office are these exceptions or restrictions displayed. You could be forgiven for thinking that, if they're being offered, they're valid right now.

If you want to buy a child ticket, you can't. Not without an adult ticket, anyway. Nowhere does it explain this, or tell children what they're supposed to do to avoid a penalty fare.

At weekends, Super Off-Peak fares are offered, but only underneath the Off-Peak fares (why would you buy these?) if you drill down. On the non-weekend days where Super Off-Peak fares are valid (usually during the summer), the ticket machines do not offer them, so you have to buy the more expensive fare.

Oh, and if you select a railcard with a minimum fare, it'll show you the minimum fare, rather than the non-railcard fare, even if the latter is cheaper.

Not particularly impressive. I regularly have to help out people who are utterly confused by them (often when I'm just walking past!)

 

[WelshBluebird]

Restrictions are already shown on TVMs. It's not the machines that are the problem, it's the carelessness of the people using them. For some strange reason, some people choose not to read what's there on the screen in front of them, then blame the complexity of the system when the real issues is that they chose to ignore the information available for what they were buying.

Surely that is a pretty poor excuse though?
The information is there for you.
It would be like buying a ticket from a ticket office, ignoring what the member of staff was saying, and then complaining about being caught using the ticket when you shouldn't be.

 

[RJ]

Surely that is a pretty poor excuse though?
The information is there for you.
It would be like buying a ticket from a ticket office, ignoring what the member of staff was saying, and then complaining about being caught using the ticket when you shouldn't be.

People see the cheapest ticket, buy it then jump on whatever train they fancy. Some people are well aware of what the deal is, but have the mentality that nothing will happen if they get caught, or that inspectors are too stupid to notice. Others don't engage their brain when using the machine. In my experience, there are very few people out there who are genuinely unable to understand.

For people suggest TVMs should become some sort of interactive journey planner, what's wrong with putting 2 + 2 together and using a timetable to aid compliance with restrictions, particularly TOC specific ones? Common sense would assume that you check there is an appropriate train available before you buy a ticket. Perhaps they should also come with a tissue dispenser and mechanical arm which does your wiping for you!

 

[Greenback]

There is also the problem that some people are genuinely confused by the information shown on a screen at a TVM. Maybe it is the way their brain works, maybe it is the way it is designed, maybe a combination of many factors, but a lot of people are much more easily able to assimilate information that is given to them by a human being using speech!

 

[sheff1]

... people suggest TVMs should become some sort of interactive journey planner ...

And why not ? Works perfectly well in Germany where you can buy tickets for days or weeks in advance and/or for journeys commencing at a station other than the one at which you are standing.

I live in hope, but not expectation, that DB owned franchises in the UK will introduce a similar facility at their stations.

 

[34D]

Sounds like a simple training issue for the staff at the Flitwick booking office.

Would the carnet help you?

 

[RJ]

And why not ? Works perfectly well in Germany where you can buy tickets for days or weeks in advance and/or for journeys commencing at a station other than the one at which you are standing.

I live in hope, but not expectation, that DB owned franchises in the UK will introduce a similar facility at their stations.

Not with the queues at the ticket machines around here! Ironically though, many people avoid TVMs like they have leprosy, even though they only want to buy very straightforward tickets so I'm not sure how popular an all singing all dancing computer fitted with 3-ply toilet roll would be in the grand scheme of things.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

Removing options from TVMs on the basis that customers (a) are stupid or (b) will try it on, is not a valid reason IMHO.

If the problem is (a) or (b), both can be dealt with by adequate flows within the TVM software - rather than offering 5 popular options on the front page, why not "where", "single or return", and "when" which covers off most of the necessary decision factors to selecting the best value fare and doesn't take long to navigate?

 

[RJ]

Removing options from TVMs on the basis that customers (a) are stupid or (b) will try it on, is not a valid reason IMHO.

If the problem is (a) or (b), both can be dealt with by adequate flows within the TVM software - rather than offering 5 popular options on the front page, why not "where", "single or return", and "when" which covers off most of the necessary decision factors to selecting the best value fare and doesn't take long to navigate?

In many cases, the only tickets commonly sold which might not be usable within the next few hours are TOC specific ones. Many, many people still manage to mess it up, buying ticket for a TOC with bright red branding, then travelling, or attempting to travel on another TOC with bright green branding and complaining when they're told they need to buy a new ticket. Indeed I presume it's also a problem down in Southern/FCC land particularly when the last Southern trains to London Bridge, for example have departed for the day. Sometimes, people need a nudge in the right direction as they are unable to comprehend the concept of checking to see if an appropriate train is available before parting with money for a ticket. If the greater majority display an inability to do this, then surely the best option is to reduce the amount of options available from the TVM? A few hardcore ticketing enthusiasts are clearly not representative (or in some cases, remotely understanding) of the frame of mind of the general travelling public IMO. Technical knowledge and soundly efficient concepts clearly don't automatically go hand in hand with each other.

Personally I think TVMs are sufficient for the needs of the majority. If people took a moment to follow the senisble order of things, i.e checking train times/travel plans before committing to purchasing a ticket and complying with any restrictions shown on the screen, I doubt there wouldn't be such a big issue. But, many people don't - they buy a ticket then request refunds once they realise there isn't a train for a few hours, sometimes voicing negative views about the machine offering a ticket which they can't immediately use. A lot of hassle for staff and customers alike is prevented by the enforcement of time restrictions on TVMs, even if people on here choose not to recognise that. Perhaps such rigid enforcement is counter-productive in a few cases, such as that described by the OP. Perhaps retail staff should be more proactive in giving customers the benefit of the doubt if they are articulate in explaining why they want to buy a particular ticket before it becomes valid. As a ticket office clerk who held a degree of autonomy with regards to such processes and worked in a place where customer service was the number one priority, I deemed that it was best practice to sell whatever was asked for, question any cases where I think conflict could arise and clearly mark any such tickets.

Unfortunately, I made an error of judgement in some cases as some customers immediately requested a refund, saying the off-peak ticket was suddenly not what they wanted as soon as I endorsed them with the restriction and I've heard stories of certain enthusiats trying this on with rovers, only for the clerk similarly be one step ahead. So some people are shysters. Obviously, tales of successful and failed attempts to dupe staff are under represented on this forum and admittedly, it's not about openly confessing instances where one has tried it on, but there is no point in pretending there isn't an issue with the element of traveller who wishes to get by through by trickery. Thus, I'm sympathetic with supervisors who tell their clerks not to issue such tickets before they become valid and I'm not surprised that TVMs are set up to avoid issuing tickets not immediately usable. Yes, it is entirely possible to circumvent but it makes it that bit less easy, particularly for the less organised shyster.

Can anyone who considers themselves to be an enthusiast offer a reason as to why such tickets should be available from TVMs, when one of the most frequent questions from customers is "Why did the machine sell me a ticket that I can't use?" It would help if this reason goes towards suiting the needs of the majority of the travelling public and not the personal needs of a small minority of fanatics. Anyone who has worked in retail or revenue and understands the way that the customers operate, I would be interested to see if any of you think I'm the slightest bit unjustified in what I say?

 

[Harlesden]

On LUL, a booking clerk is not allowed to refuse to sell an Off Peak TravelCard for the following day provided he/she explains to the passenger that it cannot be used before 09:30.
Doesn't the same principle apply to NR and its own time restricted tickets?

 

[LexyBoy]

Not with the queues at the ticket machines around here! Ironically though, many people avoid TVMs like they have leprosy, even though they only want to buy very straightforward tickets so I'm not sure how popular an all singing all dancing computer fitted with 3-ply toilet roll would be in the grand scheme of things.

People avoid TVMs because they find them complicated to use and/or don't know what ticket type they require! Thus avoiding the problems caused for staff and passengers alike that you describe in your later post. Buying from a real person gives confidence that the ticket is valid for when you want to use it- and they can answer little but important questions about your journey.

Also, surely if people thoroughly read the information on the machine as you moan that they don't, that would also lengthen the queues. I believe the interface could be made much clearer without taking any longer to use.

 

[island]

As a ticket office clerk who held a degree of autonomy with regards to such processes and worked in a place where customer service was the number one priority, I deemed that it was best practice to sell whatever was asked for, question any cases where I think conflict could arise and clearly mark any such tickets.

Unfortunately, I made an error of judgement in some cases as some customers immediately requested a refund, saying the off-peak ticket was suddenly not what they wanted as soon as I endorsed them with the restriction and I've heard stories of certain enthusiats trying this on with rovers, only for the clerk similarly be one step ahead.

Such people ought to be prosecuted in my opinion. But as that won't happen, I hope you charged them the £10 refund fee!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

People avoid TVMs because they find them complicated to use and/or don't know what ticket type they require!

That and they're terrified of getting "fined" because they bought a "wrong" ticket. Has anyone a link to that study that was commissioned where they got people to operate TVMs while saying their thought processes out loud?

 

[mappman1000]

Why is peak on FCC all the way to 0930? Its 0845 on non London services on NXEA which is much more helpful. I think it should be at least 0900 pretty much everywhere.

Wht annoys me is that the rule from London to ipswich is 0930, but from Ipswich to London its 0900. Why?

I was let through the gates for the 0900 LST - NRW once, and then got threatened with a penalty fare from the guard. I managed to argue my way out of it by explaining that elsewhere on their network on the same route in a different direction, its 0900, and he eventually settled for telling me to leave the train at Colchester, which is good as I kept my money in my pocket.

 

[island]

Off-peak times are different depending on the market. If the TOCs think they will sell more Anytime fares to people who have to use peak trains, it's in their interest.

You can't be charged a penalty fare for using an off-peak ticket on a train when it's not valid, only an excess to the Anytime (or other appropriate) fare.

 

[RJ]

Such people ought to be prosecuted in my opinion. But as that won't happen, I hope you charged them the £10 refund fee!

'Fraid not as I had to follow local rules regarding non-issue practice. Even when I knew that I had customers pulling Air Miles scams at my window. What kind of person buys two SORs from London to Liverpool using American Express, then comes back 10 minutes later trying to get a refund to a Visa Debit card, saying they wanted to go to Manchester instead? Then claiming they'd rather buy the Manchester ticket from a machine

 

[MikeWh]

What kind of person buys two SORs from London to Liverpool using American Express, then comes back 10 minutes later trying to get a refund to a Visa Debit card, saying they wanted to go to Manchester instead? Then claiming they'd rather buy the Manchester ticket from a machine

Indeed. If your employer's practice was bought to the attention of the card processor they might be interested in re-affirming the rules. Hell, if my wife buys something in Sainsbury's using her Amex card and I need to take it back for some reason they get very shirty about me getting a refund to my Amex account. They certainly wouldn't entertain a refund to a different card or payment type.

 

[island]

'Fraid not as I had to follow local rules regarding non-issue practice. Even when I knew that I had customers pulling Air Miles scams at my window. What kind of person buys two SORs from London to Liverpool using American Express, then comes back 10 minutes later trying to get a refund to a Visa Debit card, saying they wanted to go to Manchester instead? Then claiming they'd rather buy the Manchester ticket from a machine

That much is against card scheme rules; refunds on card payments are supposed to be strictly back to the original card.

 

[bb21]

I wonder if there is any record of which card the tickets were bought from. If the refund is requested at a different station, how is staff to know?

 

[MikeWh]

I wonder if there is any record of which card the tickets were bought from. If the refund is requested at a different station, how is staff to know?

Isn't the time that the ticket was issued printed on the ticket? Plus the ticket number includes the NLC of issue. If it's clear that the ticket has only just been printed then surely it's reasonable to ask for the credit card receipt?

 

[bb21]

Isn't the time that the ticket was issued printed on the ticket? Plus the ticket number includes the NLC of issue. If it's clear that the ticket has only just been printed then surely it's reasonable to ask for the credit card receipt?

Yes, of course. However there is no requirement to hold onto the receipts so I guess the passenger can claim that the receipt has been disposed of.

 

[yorkie]

A forum member has had a good response from FCC Customer Services:

I can confirm that you should be able to purchase your Off Peak ticket from Flitwick to London with a Network Railcard from the ticket office at Flitwick at any time, although you may wish to avoid particularly busy periods such as early mornings and the evenings, when commuters may be renewing or purchasing season tickets, or tickets for that day's travel. In these instances our staff may - at their discretion - advise that you return later in the day.

If you are still refused, then note the details including the name of the person who refuses to sell the ticket, politely inform them that the matter will be referred to Customer Services, and ATOC, we will then write to FCC again informing them that the problem is persisting, and also inform ATOC that FCC are not adhering to the rules of impartial retailing (as defined in the Retail Standards Guide) and that some mystery shopping is urgently required for that station.

If there is no satisfactory response, we will take it to Passenger Focus, and if you wish, your MP, Watchdog and whatever else it takes.

www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/simple_fares.html

"Buy any time, travel off-peak"

 

[Carefree]

If you are still refused, then note the details including the name of the person who refuses to sell the ticket, politely inform them that the matter will be referred to Customer Services, and ATOC, we will then write to FCC again informing them that the problem is persisting, and also inform ATOC that FCC are not adhering to the rules of impartial retailing (as defined in the Retail Standards Guide) and that some mystery shopping is urgently required for that station.[/B][/I]

Thanks Yorkie. But this begs the question: should I turn up in good time for the 1004, and should (contrary to what FCC say) the ticket office staff refuse to sell me the required ticket prior to 10am, what is my next immediate course of action? Can I get on the 1004 without a ticket? Or do I have to buy a non-discounted ticket and go to all the trouble and inconvenience of attempting to claim the difference back from FCC?

I would anticipate the former would result in some sort of fine or summons, while the latter would result in literally months worth of correspondence with FCC (and an eventual expense in terms of time and materials which dwarfs and eventual refund).

 

[yorkie]

Thanks Yorkie. But this begs the question: should I turn up in good time for the 1004, and should (contrary to what FCC say) the ticket office staff refuse to sell me the required ticket prior to 10am, what is my next immediate course of action?.

I'd ask them what time I could buy a ticket. Depending on length of queue, what the current time was, and what time they said, I'd either go to the back of the queue (and if I got to the front before that time I'd then let the person behind me go ahead, until the right time) or step aside and invite the next few people go before me and then re-assert my position at the front.

I would then write to the company and complain that I wasn't sold the ticket in the first place.

However if the actions of FCC do not get any better and nothing gets done about it, I'd try to arrange some sort of protest involving boarding a train and buying at the next opportunity with a group of people - but this would be a last resort.

 

[Roylang]

The programming of TVMs in this regard baffles me. They should sell railcard-discounted tickets from about 9.45. You should be able to buy such a ticket and board a train scheduled to depart at 1000 without inconvenience.

In my opinion they should sell them at any time of the day and the use of them before the appropriate time penalised heavily. It may well be that logistically you wish to purchase a ticket early in the morning that you will use after 10:00. I have done so in the past when the wife has dropped me at the station early, I have queued to buy a ticket and then walked into town to kill time before returning for an off-peak train.

Given that you can pre-purchase a ticket on the internet days before I don't see the issue that FCC are trying to prevent.

If platforms are gated these could refuse entry until an approproate time prior to 10:00, based upon the configuration of the station etc.

Roy

 

[GarethW]

Just read this thread - find it incredible, never had any trouble buying Network card discount tickets at any time and for jurneys from other stations to the one I'm buying at.