'Big man' vs Sam Main incident (final decision: no charges for either)

[Chew Chew]

You could contact the person who uploaded the video. I have.

While common sense says that the conductor did no wrong, some cretins may claim he should have said "no" when the other guy asked if he wanted the chav off the train.

Also the chav may use the video as evidence against the 'big guy', now I hope that the police and CPS would not put the interests of chavs above society but I am not entirely confident. Therefore, the video is best removed IMO.

In this case, the chav lost. But for each of these, there will be more occasions where the swearing, cheating chavs get their way sadly.

Procurator Fiscal in Scotland.

Depends on how far away the police were. If the train was going into Edinburgh then it would have been easy because there would have been a police presence on the station to deal with it. As they were headed home then the lad could have just got off at one of the out stations and disappeared into the night.

Linlithgow is 1 stop, 5 minutes, from Polmont which was where he was wanting to go.

 

[umontu]

I guess I am probably the only one on here that thinks the "big man" shouldn't have done what he did.

The conductor shouldn't have encouraged him, that's where he opened a can of worms.

This with that Croyden tram video could lead to a nasty trend. News media creates great headlines about this sort of thing.

 

[the sniper]

The manner in which the big guy assisted I'd say he was trained in handling and removing someone from a location, looked like he did it by the techniques bouncers and police are trained to do

Seeing the way the big guy picked the evader up suggests he is police or a bouncer. Certainly knew how pick someone up.

You'd say so? From personal experience, I wouldn't. I suppose every force varies though.

I hope the chaps sake that he is a PC/SC/SPC, but I doubt it. If he were, I'm sure he would have identified himself as such. He certainly would have if he were BTP, as he'd have a knowledge of the byelaws.

Unfortunately, though the byelaws permit the guard to use 'reasonable force' to remove a person breeching a byelaw from the train (most TOCs don't permit it), the byelaws don't cover people assisting an 'Authorised person'... The guy was clearly well intentioned, but like Yorkie I see that this chap could end up facing an Assault charge. Only time will tell whether BTP Scotland and eventually the Procurator Fiscal (EDIT - I did put CPS originally. Thanks Chew Chew. ) will peruse that though. If the fare evader comes forward, he'll at least be facing a £200+ fine for breaching an assortment of byelaws...

 

[bnm]

Taking the law into your own hands should never be encouraged, but matey in the silly hat would be a fool to himself if he decided to pursue the matter.

Not so long ago I helped a bus driver throw off an unruly passenger who was drunk, obnoxious and making all sorts of threats to those who were asking him to pipe down. Whilst in the process of ejecting him he punched the bus driver (kudos to the driver for coming out of his cab) in the stomach. Before even contemplating the outcome I found my head travelling toward matey scum's face. Perfect connection with his nose and he went down. Bundled him off and we were on our way before matey got up off the pavement.

I was very concerned that I might be facing an assault charge, but I had the backing of my fellow passengers, the bus driver, and a manager from the bus company who'd seen the CCTV footage and taken the time to contact me after I'd given my details to the driver. Nothing further has been heard.

Sometimes you do just have to stand up and be counted.

As always though.....YMMV.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I saw something similar on the Sheffield Supertram. There, though, the appearance of the 'big man' telling the chav to get off before he f***ing threw him off had the desired effect. Again I got the impression the 'big man' was a bouncer and the other passengers on the tram were equally as appreciative as those on the Scottish clip.

spent my entire life in sheffield and never seen someone brave enough to do that :P

 

[Prodigy]

I guess I am probably the only one on here that thinks the "big man" shouldn't have done what he did.

Nah, I don't think he should've either, but the chav got what he deserved imo.

 

[Nym]

Considering what happened with some **** on a Blackburn - Victoria service with a delibrate evader doing his usual trick, conductor forced him off the train, verbally, at Crescent, next time he'll be met by BTP aparently...

(Emailed NT Customer Service with a very nice complement about the conductor)

 

[yorkie]

This from the OP of the video

Thanks for that, that's good to know.

...because a lot of people are of the opinion that a line was crossed when the big fella picked up the fare dodger.... .

Doesn't surprise me. Youtube has an infestation.

 

[Nym]

Well, maybe when enough of these appear the fairdodging lil gits will realise they can't get away with it and buy a ticket...!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Personally, I find myself in an odd situation.

As someone who generally is against people taking the law into their own hands, I would like to see the guy cautioned for it (or at least given a talking to about it). Indeed, following on this line I am personally quite worried about the effects of letting people take the law into their own hands. If we allow it for situations like this, then what other situations is it ok for? Who says so? What happens when people disagree with when it is appropriate or not.

However, as someone who spends an awful lot of money travelling by train, I get annoyed at those who don't pay when they should. Especially those who lie and try to argue their away around it, and especially at those who are abusive about it, and I really hope he learned something from this experience.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would like to see the guy cautioned for it (or at least given a talking to about it). Indeed, following on this line I am personally quite worried about the effects of letting people take the law into their own hands. If we allow it for situations like this, then what other situations is it ok for? Who says so? What happens when people disagree with when it is appropriate or not.

Maybe if the law (read the police) was a little more 'visible', then chaps like this wouldn't need to go manhandling faredodging scrotes like this off trains.

Full marks to the chap. I wouldn't have done it though. Mainly because I'm about five foot eight.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

This from the OP of the video

ScotRail's CCTV is in colour, not black and white.

 

[the sniper]

Maybe if the law (read the police) was a little more 'visible', then chaps like this wouldn't need to go manhandling faredodging scrotes like this off trains.

Many would like to be more visible, but you'll need to find people to do their paperwork for them or employ more bobbies...

 

[wintonian]

I seem to remember reading somewhere in the by-laws that an authorised member of railway staff can remove someone from the premises/ train in certain circumstances.

Yep, I did.

24. Enforcement

(1) Offence and level of fines

Any person who breaches any of these Byelaws commits an offence and, with the exception of Byelaw 17, may be liable for each such offence to a penalty not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

(2) Removal of persons

(i) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws shall leave the railway immediately if asked to do so by an authorised person.
(ii) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of removal is in addition to the imposition of any penalty for the breach of these Byelaws.

DfT

So we come to the often debated argument within society of what is 'reasonable force'.

 

[LondonJohn]

As the holder of a very expensive annual season ticket I do not condone fare dodging however nor do I condone assault and/or the endorsement of it by a railway employee.

Whilst the big fella's intentions were I am sure admirable, the guard should have followed his procedures here and called the police or got the police to meet the train at the destination of the alleged fare dodger.

Whilst the fare dodger was in the wrong and also unharmed, what would happen if an arm or leg was broken in the course of removing him and/or damage to personal property OR other injury?

Besides, In the eyes of the law in the UK I would be pretty surprised if the big guys actions was not assault even if no injuries were caused. If this is the case an endorsement from an official that its OK to do is not great.

If the big man's actions were illegal then I don't think the fare evader needs to complain for action to be taken.

 

[tony_mac]

Travelling without a ticket is an offence, and CPS guidelines say that

A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of prevention of crime

I can't see that picking somebody up and moving them could be unreasonable force - it seems to be the minimum required to deal with somebody that has refused to move!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Actually, what is the legal position in such a case, where third party intervention takes place whilst on a train.

 

[richw]

If an authorised person gives authorisation to someone does that make them an authorised person, after all an authorised person may use force to remove.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

 

[Crapper]

What does 'telt' mean?

 

[AlterEgo]

What does 'telt' mean?

"Told".

 

[bAzTNM]

Although it's amusing, I wouldn't be surprised to see the "big guy" get nicked for assault.

Yeah, the evader should have been chipped off, but nobody should be grabbing people off chairs, punching them to the floor, then throwing them out the door, then throwing their bag at them. That goes a tad bit far if you ask me,

 

[mumrar]

If I was the conductor, I wouldn't of intervened myself as it could of possibly made the situation worse. If this didn't happen though, would the conductor of called the police to have him removed from the train ?

I despair. But to be serious, I note the full supply of legal experts have turned up. The guard did little wrong, bar not getting out of the way in time. The ticketless fella really went down the second time when he tried to get back on.

As an aside, that hat (fare dodgers) is appalling.

Yeah, the evader should have been chipped off, but nobody should be grabbing people off chairs, punching them to the floor, then throwing them out the door, then throwing their bag at them. That goes a tad bit far if you ask me,

Who was punched to the floor. In fact, was anyone punched at all?

 

[bAzTNM]

Who was punched to the floor. In fact, was anyone punched at all?

Quite hard to see (grant you that), but he does hit the ground rather easily in between the seats. He might have just stumbled. I apologise.

 

[amcluesent]

I wish FCC employed 'heavies' to chuck the chavs out of FC on the late trains.

 

[mumrar]

Quite hard to see (grant you that), but he does hit the ground rather easily in between the seats. He might have just stumbled. I apologise.

The bit between the seats they fall because the scrote is grabbing anything he can. Why he doesn't just give up I don't know - his second attempt at reboarding he's grappling with the guard, so to all the lawyers in here, he could be up on a charge too.

 

[AlterEgo]

What about the rights of the passengers to get home on time? Do they not have a right not to get held up by a piece of social flotsam?

Answers on a postcard.

 

[amcluesent]

Could be some compo for the gard to top up his pension?

 

[bAzTNM]

I'd like to know what was happening before he got the camera out. Something must have happened before the filming before he brought it out.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'd like to know what was happening before he got the camera out. Something must have happened before the filming before he brought it out.

Yes, the guard and the "big man" don't seem unknown to one another. Clearly the dispute had been going on for a while (he wouldn't have been checking tickets when stopped in a station - he'd have checked previously, told the scrote to get off, then come back at Linlithgow to do the deed).

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Was there? As far as I can see the only thing that could have happened is a less heated argument about it...