'Big man' vs Sam Main incident (final decision: no charges for either)

[the sniper]

At least he wasn't stabbed, like this poor guy was yesterday.

Looks like they're an RPI. I don't envy their job.

Here's wishing him a speedy recovery.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....With formal assertion, calmly, rationally, adultly, bringing the offender round, and implementing the appropriate procedure....

So firmly, calmly, rationally talking to a drunk student with no intention of moving, until the train reaches his stop atleast, or paying would resolve the situation would it? I don't think you have quite grasped the situation.

 

[Ferret]

Sniper, the only point at which it becomes inapplicable is when the chap doesn't detain him. My reading of it is that he could've removed him from the train to detain him at the station and been quite lawful in using reasonbable force.

 

[the sniper]

Sniper, the only point at which it becomes inapplicable is when the chap doesn't detain him. My reading of it is that he could've removed him from the train to detain him at the station and been quite lawful in using reasonbable force.

We'll see. At no point was he detained though or detainment even attempted. The big man didn't touch him with the intention of detaining him. He wasn't asked to seize or detain the kid.

 

[Ferret]

He was asked to remove him, and I suspect we agree there was no intent to detain at any point!

And yes we'll see. I really think it'll be hard to secure a conviction with regard to bigman, and I don't think it'll make it to Court.

 

[Masbroughlad]

The big bloke should have kept out of it and the guard should have called the police.

 

[Oswyntail]

It saddens me to read that

IMO it's everyone's business, and I like to think I would have supported the guard in that situation, not necessarily acted the same way (not big or brave enough!) but even if it was just verbally, it's still my business.

So firmly, calmly, rationally talking to a drunk student with no intention of moving, until the train reaches his stop atleast, or paying would resolve the situation would it? I don't think you have quite grasped the situation.

As one who has a) been trained in conflict resolution and b) used that training I have an inkling of what i am talking about.
Yorkie: yes, everyone should be concerned, but it is a fact that intervention by outsiders usually raises the level of the "conflict", essentially introducing a new element to be controlled. If approached the guard should have thanked the "Big Man" and politely asked him not to get involved. Of course, had either party resorted to physical violence, other passengers should have helped restrain them. That there was little attempt to do this when "Big Man" intervened is a tad disturbing.
HHF: Yes, that approach works, and requires patience. Remember that there are two, potentially conflicting, aims here: revenue protection and protecting the passengers. The guard seemed to be concentrating more on the former, understandably, but risked the latter when he allowed the vigilante to intervene.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

As one who has a) been trained in conflict resolution and b) used that training I have an inkling of what i am talking about.
Yorkie: yes, everyone should be concerned, but it is a fact that intervention by outsiders usually raises the level of the "conflict", essentially introducing a new element to be controlled. If approached the guard should have thanked the "Big Man" and politely asked him not to get involved. Of course, had either party resorted to physical violence, other passengers should have helped restrain them. That there was little attempt to do this when "Big Man" intervened is a tad disturbing.
HHF: Yes, that approach works, and requires patience. Remember that there are two, potentially conflicting, aims here: revenue protection and protecting the passengers. The guard seemed to be concentrating more on the former, understandably, but risked the latter when he allowed the vigilante to intervene.

Oswyntail even though I do respect your Opinion I really think that you should work the last train on a Friday night and see how far your "Conflict Training" gets you, Training and the real world are totally seperate entities and I do not agree with you whatsoever, chances are by the time you have used your "Conflict Training" some Thug would have punched you between the eyes (or in the case of the inspector in another thread) get stabbed in the back.

 

[Ferret]

Oswyntail, conflict training and protection of revenue are two separate entities. They are often polar opposites. I'm afraid that to speak with any authority on this, you need to have done the job....

 

[Old Timer]

...Question for OT and DaveNewcastle then: how can scrote prove he got his injury during his eviction? Further to that, can 'bigman' legitimately claim that scrote suffered injury because he was resisting his lawful removal?

Personally I rather fear that this may show up on the video.

Unless one was there it would appear impossible to be certain but Big Man was quite bigger than the scrote, and it may be that a judgement is made that he was perhaps a litle too rough in his handling of the scrote. Such judgements are invariably subjective.

I do wish Big Man well, especially as unusually with most passengers, he was willing to go to the assistance of the Guard. As all the Guards/Conductors, TMs have already alluded to, It can be a lonely position when dealing with (a) disruptive passenger(s) or fare evaders. No-one wants to get involved yet the member of staff is expected to fulfil his "duty" to the approval of all present, even though such agendas may well be vastly different.

The decision to eject someone physically is not an easy judgement call, and I would certainly never question a person's decision not to. Once you set out down this road, there can only be one winner, and as Sun Tzu states in his Book of War "...He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight."

It is very easy for people to sit in judgement from both sides and say that what is wrong or is right, what should or shouldn't be done, how a member of staff should or should not act, however all this counts for nothing when one has not been there personally.

It is a lonely, thankless position, and one is always conscious that whatever the action one takes, there will always be someone who is not happy.

 

[amcluesent]

Hounding of a first-class hero: The banker who threw a foul-mouthed student off a train could end up in court

In a move that has prompted howls of protest from the Big Man’s supporters, he is now facing possible ruin as police investigate criminal assault charges against him. British Transport Police confirmed they are investigating the matter after being notified about the video.

At the same time, ScotRail has revealed that the unnamed ticket inspector has been put on annual leave while the matter is investigated, amid reports that the man will be either sacked or disciplined for allowing Pollock to forcibly eject the student.

Rattled by the publicity, not to mention the prospect of losing his job if found guilty, Mr Pollock has refused to speak about what’s being called ‘Big Man Gate’ after detectives arrived at his home to question him about the alleged offence.

Avril, Mr Pollock’s wife, told me at their home yesterday: ‘Alan’s a very private person. He doesn’t want to make any comment. He doesn’t want to get involved in any row.’

Broken Britain!

 

[Ferret]

Entirely predictable that the right-wing press would rally to the cause I suppose! The thing is, if the Police receive a complaint, they have to investigate, even if it is filed in the 'No Further Action' folder....

 

[Rational Plan]

Entirely predictable that the right-wing press would rally to the cause I suppose! The thing is, if the Police receive a complaint, they have to investigate, even if it is filed in the 'No Further Action' folder....

Well shall see. If he ends up fired or the other person prosecuted.

 

[amcluesent]

BTP will want 'the book' thrown at the big man, as coppers can't abide any civvie showing them up

 

[ANorthernGuard]

BTP will want 'the book' thrown at the big man, as coppers can't abide any civvie showing them up

As someone who deals with the BTP they do a very good job with very limited resources, if they had more officers a lot more could get done

 

[Minilad]

BTP will want 'the book' thrown at the big man, as coppers can't abide any civvie showing them up

Well maybe they wouldn't have to if the BTP decided to 'show up' a bit more often

 

[jon0844]

Big Man should say that he was just 'doing his (civil) duty', as he appreciated that BTP were 'probably very busy doing something elsewhere' - and pointing out how much respect he has for them working in these types of situations every single day.

I am sure that if he said that to the media, he'd suddenly find himself given VIP treatment for not only NOT showing them up, but also stating how important they are.

Mr Main is surely going to use the media to his advantage (and already has) so sitting quiet may not be the best idea. Of course, speaking to the press does run the risk of being misquoted - so it's a tough call.

 

[amcluesent]

so it's a tough call.

Should be belling Max McClifford at his but'n'ben I'd say! Maybe £50K from the Sunday Record and Sunday Post for a photo-spread and his story?

 

[Old Timer]

In fairness to the BTP, their numbers are constrained by the willingness of the TOCs and Network Rail to pay for them.

These organisations want the BTP to be avaialable as and when, but are unwilling to face up to the financial consequences of this. If you look at the number of Officers, and the demands what with cable theft and other issues ongoing, there are precious few available to cover large areas.

 

[jon0844]

Should be belling Max Clifford I'd say! Maybe £50K from the Daily Record and Sunday Post for a photo-spread and his story?

I am not proposing he profits from what he did, as that could send out the wrong message.

 

[WestCoast]

In fairness to the BTP, their numbers are constrained by the willingness of the TOCs and Network Rail to pay for them.

Yes, security on the railways is a constant issue, which leads me on to the private security workers that I have seen under contract to various non-UK TOCs and non-National Rail systems. If the BTP or equivalent bodies cannot deal with these incidents, should the TOC do something themselves?

 

[Ferret]

Chiltern have private security at some stations. Trouble is, they have no real power - no different to the powers of you and me in terms of citizen's arrest...

I'll leave you to decide on how effective a measure they are. As regards BTP, some officers are very good. Some are awful. For instance, I'm aware of one officer who said 'he's given you an address, there's nowt we can do'. That address began with 'Mr Michael Mouse......'. The trouble is that the bad sometimes outweigh the good. I know my employers have regular meetings with BTP and incidents like that do get brought up so maybe things will improve with time - they need to.

t

 

[bnm]

should the TOC do something themselves?

Increase their funding of BTP to allow for more officers?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Increase their funding of BTP to allow for more officers?

youd think that would be cheaper than making their own arrangements

 

[Talbot]

As one who has a) been trained in conflict resolution and b) used that training I have an inkling of what i am talking about.
Yorkie: yes, everyone should be concerned, but it is a fact that intervention by outsiders usually raises the level of the "conflict", essentially introducing a new element to be controlled. If approached the guard should have thanked the "Big Man" and politely asked him not to get involved. Of course, had either party resorted to physical violence, other passengers should have helped restrain them. That there was little attempt to do this when "Big Man" intervened is a tad disturbing.
HHF: Yes, that approach works, and requires patience. Remember that there are two, potentially conflicting, aims here: revenue protection and protecting the passengers. The guard seemed to be concentrating more on the former, understandably, but risked the latter when he allowed the vigilante to intervene.

Oswyntail, I too have had conflict management training in previous employment, such as S.C.I.P. ( strategies for crisis intervention and prevention), the latest being Studio 3 training, a method adopted by the police and prison services. However, since taking on my new employment as a Ticket Examiner I now realise that all that training and experience is of no use to me at all within my new role. Working the last trains out of Glasgow Central to whichever destinations they are going to will almost certainly provide me with a challenging situation, fact of life. Unfortunately I cannot use the skills I gained previously to defuse any of the situations I encounter, I am not permitted to. At the end of the day it's all about common sense and knowing how to be proactive in any challenging confrontational situation. Confrontation is easier to find than it is to avoid, you can find it anywhere in life, not just on train, it's how you deal with it as an individual that is the important part of managing it.

 

[the sniper]

BTP will want 'the book' thrown at the big man, as coppers can't abide any civvie showing them up

Believe whatever makes you happy...

Well maybe they wouldn't have to if the BTP decided to 'show up' a bit more often

It always amazes me how, on this forum and others, if there's even the slightest whiff of anti-rail staff sentiment or ignorance shown, every railwaymen is all over it as an outrageous attack on someone's grade. Yet, a good number of railwaymen seem only to happy to slag off the BTP and the railway policeman grade without a care for understanding the duties or workload of your average BTP station or bobby.

If the BTP are available, they'll come. If they're not, locals will be sent.

As Old Timer wisely points out, the BTP is a very thinly spread blue line.

If the BTP or equivalent bodies cannot deal with these incidents, should the TOC do something themselves?

Maybe spend some more money on enabling the BTP to deal with the incidents? Nope, because it's cheaper to pay a private security company to supply someone with who's paid peanuts and given little training to enforce limited powers.

 

[Ferret]

Sniper - every railwayman will tell you that BTP could do better. The truth is that some officers don't know the laws they are paid to enforce. I'm behind you 100% when you say that more money should be spent by TOCs on BTP, but from the TOC's point of view, why would you do that when their performance is so poor? It becomes a vicious circle.

 

[bnm]

Evidence of this 'truth' and 'poor performance'?

Take a look at the BTP Annual Reports and Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Costabulary inspection findings.

http://www.btp.police.uk/freedom_of_information/publications.aspx
http://www.hmic.gov.uk/publication/british-transport-police-inspection-findings/

Both are independently compiled reports and there is little evidence of 'poor performance' and no evidence that BTP officers are poorly trained. Most BTP Authority targets were met in 2011/11 and those that were missed were only just missed.

Yes, I'm sure there are areas for improvement, but if 'every railwayman' is really that disaffected, then do something about it. For better or worse you're fortunate to work in one of the few remaining heavily unionised industries. Use that union power to lobby the BTP paymasters, the TOCs.

It would be nice to see reports on the performance of rail staff as well. The truth is, some of them don't know the rules they are paid to enforce. More money should be spent by the TOCs on staff training, some staff's performance is very poor.

 

[the sniper]

Sniper - every railwayman will tell you that BTP could do better. The truth is that some officers don't know the laws they are paid to enforce.

The same could be said for every profession though. We all know there are some Guards/Conductors who aren't up to scratch, but rightly, no one here would get away with holding that against the majority.

I'm behind you 100% when you say that more money should be spent by TOCs on BTP, but from the TOC's point of view, why would you do that when their performance is so poor? It becomes a vicious circle.

How are you measuring that? The BTP has achieved all of its operational Policing Plan targets set by the independent BTP Authority for the last three years.

Of course more could always be done, but there's only so much so few can do.

 

[Ferret]

Well, I'm measuring it on how many complaints there are from myself and my colleagues, against how many times we can say they've done a good job. I'm really not bothered about statistics, which can be manipulated to fit any argument. I'm interested in my own experiences and that of my colleagues though, which are far more relevant to me. And I'm sorry but they really could do better. I'm sorry, but accepting Mr M Mouse as an address is laughable, as is not knowing the byelaw regarding interfering with the duties of a railway official and then threatening the railwayman attempting to deal with the matter with impending doom. Quote all the stats you like, but they aren't good enough - railway management know it and front line staff know it.

PS - yes Sniper, many Guards aren't up to scratch either!