Penalty Fare - sitting in First Class on a Standard Ticket

[Butts]

The 'never mind, don't do it again' approach just encourages people to try it on. If there are clear warning signs, that should be the polite bit. Ignore that and you're fair game.

Sent from my Commodore 64 using Tapatalk

I would say the official should be enpowered to use discretion in this sort of case. If he asked the person to move and they refused they would be fair game for a PF. Persistent offenders (the official was aware of) would be fined forthwith.

 

[Ferret]

Odd you should say that Butts, I've just TI'd somebody this week for an FC with Standard ticket. Very similar to what you describe. Why do people always want to push their luck?

 

[SussexMan]

Southern's Leaflet on Penalty Fares says:

If I have a standard class ticket, but sit in First Class, as the train
is busy, will I receive a Penalty Fare?
As your ticket would not be valid in First Class accommodation
you may have to pay a Penalty Fare of £20 or twice the First
Class single fare (whichever is the greater) to the next stop, plus
a First Class single from there to your destination. However,
depending on the circumstances, you may be liable to
prosecution instead. If you wish to travel First Class, then you
must buy a First Class ticket or appropriate upgrade before
travelling.

Their website page says something slightly different:

If you cannot produce a valid ticket for your entire journey, or permit to travel when asked to do so you may be charged a Penalty Fare of £20 or twice the full single fare (whichever is the greater amount) to the next station at which your train stops. Also, you may be charged the full single fare to your destination station if you continue your journey on the same train.

The OP says that the next stop was not Victoria, so on that basis has been incorrectly charged.

What I'm not clear about is that if the passenger moves to std class before the next stop, do they still have to pay the First Class single fare from the next stop to the destination, or do they only have to pay that if they stay in 1st class. My instinct suggests that if they move to std class then there is no more to pay but "instinct" and "ticketing rules" do not necessarily go together.

 

[tannedfrog]

The OP may understandably wish to disguise which train she was on but I note that there is no 09:06 tomorrow on that route. The 0845 has 5 stops and the 0919 only has 3 stops. The point at which she was challenged makes a big difference to how much she should have been charged..

 

[RJ]

Really? Honestly? Criminal proceedings for sitting in First Class? Is a Penalty Fare not enough? (It's not as if I see them being issued often, either - here in London Midland land). I'd only imagine a TOC starting criminal proceedings if an individual repeatedly sits in First Class after having been warned.

Nope, it's not enough. Penalty Fares are not an effective deterrent for ticketless travel. People tend to have a very lax attitude when it comes to paying up front to using the service the railway provides. Given that warnings, publications and pathetic £20 notices don't work, perhaps a few prosections and criminal records might help to get the message across. People only have themselves to blame if they find themselves in that situation.

I do all I can within reason to ensure I have a valid means of travel prior to boarding trains so I don't see why other people should get away with not bothering.

 

[martinsh]

Penalty Fares. Ticket gates. Both symptoms of a deteriorating standard of behaviour in society generally.
.

I would say more a symptom of "false economies" in not wanting pay people to staff ticket barriers (like in 1960-80s) or check tickets on trains as a matter of course.

 

[Butts]

I would say more a symptom of "false economies" in not wanting pay people to staff ticket barriers (like in 1960-80s) or check tickets on trains as a matter of course.

The speeds may have improved , but I concur most other aspects of travel have suffered from so called rationalisation

 

[34D]

Even if there is a guard on a train the guard is supposed to charge the full first class single in cases such as this and not even take into account the fare already paid so it's not just DOO trains.

That is not what the NRCOC provides though.

To the OP, I believe you have been unfairly treated. Click http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf and on http://www.southernrailway.com/download/17308.2/penalty-fare-leaflet-december-2011/

The national rail conditions of carriage are the terms and conditions that cover your journey. I draw your attention to clause 39, which I reproduce in full:

39. Travelling in frst class accommodation with a standard class ticket
If you have a standard class ticket (other than a Season Ticket), no standard class accommodation is available, and ticket staff on that train give their permission, then you may travel in frst class accommodation (or the equivalent) where this is available without extra charge.
On-train ticket staff will not give you permission to use frst class accommodation (or the equivalent) unless they are satisfed that it is not required by anyone with a frst class ticket and the standard class accommodation on the train is full. This permission may be withdrawn if a person holding a frst class ticket requires the accommodation during your journey or standard class accommodation becomes available.
If you have a standard class ticket and you travel in frst class accommodation without permission (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the carriage), you will have to pay:
(a) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the frst class ticket for the accommodation you have used; or
(b) where Condition 4 (b) applies, a Penalty Fare.
If you have a standard class Season Ticket, you may only travel in frst class accommodation (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the carriage) if:
(a) the difference between the full single fare for frst class accommodation and the full single fare for standard class accommodation has been paid before your journey starts;
(b) any other relevant supplement set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies has been paid before your journey starts;
(c) notices are displayed allowing passengers with standard class tickets to use frst class accommodation; or
(d) on-train ticket staff have given you permission.
In all other cases, if you travel in frst class accommodation (or the equivalent)
with a standard class Season Ticket, you will be treated as having joined the train without a valid ticket, and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

Your hope lies in a few little words. Season ticket holders are told "If you have a standard class Season Ticket, you may only travel in frst class accommodation (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the carriage) if:
(a) the difference between the full single fare for frst class accommodation and the full single fare for standard class accommodation has been paid before your journey starts..." Before your journey starts, so at the ticket office.

People with normal return tickets are told "If you have a standard class ticket and you travel in frst class accommodation without permission (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the carriage), you will have to pay:
(a) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the frst class ticket for the accommodation you have used; or
(b) where Condition 4 (b) applies, a Penalty Fare." We'll ignore 39b for now. The first bit says you "will have to pay theh difference" - not "must pay the difference before your journey" but "will have to pay" implying during your journey when the guard comes round.

39a and 39b are joined by the word "or" - this suggests that one or the other applies. In consumer law, if there are conflicting terms, "the interpretation most favourable to the consumer will prevail".

_if_ clause 39 had intended to read "in penalty fare areas caluse 4b always applies" then they would have said so. What they have said is "in penalty fare areas paying the difference or a penalty fare either could apply

You also have the points around the guy inviting you to sit down (which is giving permission as I see it), him not letting you part-pay, not giving a PF to the next stop, and the seats being identical to the first class ones.

Please try to think about where exactly this happened, what station I mean.

 

[RJ]

Sounds like a job for 'Mr Loophole'!

Personally speaking, I have the greatest admiration for people who do their homework and knowingly travel in complete legitimacy. However, I have no time for frauds who 'bluff,' or people who commit an offence then look for technicalities to get off on. Certainly wouldn't try to help anyone who sat in First Class when they knew they were not entitled to as it's hardly an easy mistake to make!

 

[Urban Gateline]

I would say more a symptom of "false economies" in not wanting pay people to staff ticket barriers (like in 1960-80s) or check tickets on trains as a matter of course.

Not necessarily, at some times trains are too busy for onboard staff or RPI's to do checks on the train, so Ticket Gates play an important part in protecting revenue in these circumstances!

 

[34D]

Whilst I have the greatest admiration for people who do their homework and knowingly travel in complete legitimacy, I have no time for people who commit an offence then look for technicalities to get off on. Certainly wouldn't try to help anyone who sat in First Class when they knew they were not entitled to as it's hardly an easy mistake to make!

Can someone put up a picture of a class 377 interior please. Standard and First are IDENTICAL.

 

[RJ]

Can someone put up a picture of a class 377 interior please. Standard and First are IDENTICAL.

There are notices prior to entering the compartment clearly stating that it's a First Class compartment. There are stickers on the windows to the same effect and antimacassars which quite clearly read "First Class."

Just because the seats are the same, it does not mean that it is not a First Class compartment. You're onto a loser if you think that's a veritable defence that would hold up.

 

[jon0844]

Can someone put up a picture of a class 377 interior please. Standard and First are IDENTICAL.

But they're designated as different areas for ticketing purposes!

Now on FCC, the 377/5s have had one end declassified (and that's official - there are signs to state the fact outside the compartment) but at the other it's still marked as first class for the benefit of the people who do buy FC tickets. I am guessing it's not many, but there must be some!

 

[RJ]

At least the FCC 377s have plug sockets in FC - no such luxury with Southern!

 

[jon0844]

At least the FCC 377s have plug sockets in FC - no such luxury with Southern!

I hope they've disconnected them in the declassified section.

 

[RJ]

I hope not - quite handy they are

 

[Tomonthetrain]

I hope they've disconnected them in the declassified section.

Nope - still working as I managed to charge a iPod and [sarcasm]cook a 3 course dinner in there[/sarcasm]

 

[NathanPrior]

It's not only me that thinks Southern are useless, yay.

Also, I sometimes have problems with first class with SouthEastern when I buy a travelcard and get on at Orpington or Bromley South and sit in 1st class, now there isn't first class on this route, especially the trains starting at Orpington so I tell the conductor this and it normally shuts him up. The best one ever was when a conductor asks "what if someone wants to sit in 1st class at the stops between now and London Bridge?" to which I reply with "there isn't one til London Bridge"..ah its good getting ones over on them

 

[RJ]

Hmm, Southern have been very good to me...in the South London area, the trains have been very reliable over the years. Plus, I used a Govia pass to cover the entire network south of Purley Oaks/West Croydon in 3 weekdays and didn't suffer any delays, whilst making all the +1 connections I had planned. Trains seem fit for purpose for commuter travel.

People used to try and get one over on me when I was working in revenue protection, but invariably it never worked as I was always two steps ahead .

 

[NathanPrior]

Just a shame most of the staff aren't trained properly, good company yes, good staff no

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I've been saying that to my manager for years

It would certainly reduce the problem quite quickly

....Your hope lies in a few little words. Season ticket holders are told "If you have a standard class Season Ticket, you may only travel in frst class accommodation (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the carriage) if:
(a) the difference between the full single fare for frst class accommodation and the full single fare for standard class accommodation has been paid before your journey starts..." Before your journey starts, so at the ticket office.

People with normal return tickets are told "If you have a standard class ticket and you travel in frst class accommodation without permission (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the carriage), you will have to pay:
(a) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the frst class ticket for the accommodation you have used; or
(b) where Condition 4 (b) applies, a Penalty Fare." We'll ignore 39b for now.
The first bit says you "will have to pay theh difference" - not "must pay the difference before your journey" but "will have to pay" implying during your journey when the guard comes round.

39a and 39b are joined by the word "or" - this suggests that one or the other applies. In consumer law, if there are conflicting terms, "the interpretation most favourable to the consumer will prevail".

_if_ clause 39 had intended to read "in penalty fare areas caluse 4b always applies" then they would have said so. What they have said is "in penalty fare areas paying the difference or a penalty fare either could apply

You also have the points around the guy inviting you to sit down (which is giving permission as I see it), him not letting you part-pay, not giving a PF to the next stop, and the seats being identical to the first class ones.

Please try to think about where exactly this happened, what station I mean.

Have you read Condition 4?

It says specifically that if travelling in First class with a Standard class ticket on a Penalty Fare service from a Penalty Fare station you will be given a Penalty Fare, so the 'choice' is made. This has been printed earlier in the thread.

 

[34D]

Have you read Condition 4?

It says specifically that if travelling in First class with a Standard class ticket on a Penalty Fare service from a Penalty Fare station you will be given a Penalty Fare, so the 'choice' is made. This has been printed earlier in the thread.

You're reading a different condition 4 to me then - I see "You may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if..."

'May' is a very different word to 'will'.

If the OP hasn't been scared off, I suggest a complaint along these lines, concluding to a small claims court claim for recovery of her losses.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The word 'may' is there because not all trains and stations are in penalty fare areas. Any court claim on that point would promptly loose.

 

[34D]

The word 'may' is there because not all trains and stations are in penalty fare areas. Any court claim on that point would promptly loose.

Suggest you read the whole of clause 4 then. Unless you are a qualified solicitor I would politely request you delete or amend your post, as it is misleading to the OP.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Suggest you read the whole of clause 4 then. Unless you are a qualified solicitor I would politely request you delete or amend your post, as it is misleading to the OP.

Yet you are the one giving false hope that the OP can take this to Civil Court? I suggest you remove that. There are a number of possible options for the OP to use in their defence if it ever went to court. The wording of condition 4 is NOT one of them. The use of the word 'may' only indicates that if the train/station is not a penalty fares applicable one then one cannot be charged. It also allows the TOC to use discretion. In full Condition 4 means that if the TOC wish to charge the OP a penalty fare then they can as Condition 39 states that if you travel in FC with an SC ticket then you will either be liable to pay the difference, or if it is a penalty fares area, you will be liable to pay a penalty fare under 4(b).

 

[142094]

[sarcasm]cook a 3 course dinner in there[/sarcasm]

Wonder if anyone sells a portable microwave?

 

[Ferret]

Suggest you read the whole of clause 4 then. Unless you are a qualified solicitor I would politely request you delete or amend your post, as it is misleading to the OP.

Are you a qualified soilicitor? If so, you'll be aware of byelaw 19 then, which is what you'd seemingly like to see the OP prosecuted under?

 

[34D]

Yet you are the one giving false hope that the OP can take this to Civil Court? I suggest you remove that.

The OP paid, so southern won't be starting a claim (mags or civil).

The OP is entitled to her money back (for the reasons I gave above) and ultimately has the right to pay her fee and use http://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk to do so (following pre-action protocol, of course).

 

[northwichcat]

Is it an Unpaid Fares Notice? Or is it a Penalty Fare? (£69.00 is twice the full First Class single fare to your destination of Victoria; they're £34.50 each)

That's not how Southern say they calculate penalty fares for sitting in FC with a SC ticket:

If I have a standard class ticket, but sit in First Class, as the train
is busy, will I receive a Penalty Fare?

As your ticket would not be valid in First Class accommodation
you may have to pay a Penalty Fare of £20 or twice the First
Class single fare (whichever is the greater) to the next stop, plus
a First Class single from there to your destination. However,
depending on the circumstances, you may be liable to
prosecution instead. If you wish to travel First Class, then you
must buy a First Class ticket or appropriate upgrade before
travelling.

http://www.southernrailway.com/tickets-and-fares/penalty-fares/

So if the train had not departed East Croydon when they were caught then double the FC single fare to Victoria is wrong.

 

[applepie]

Hi there,
I won't be taking them to court, I paid the fine at the time so I think from Southern's point of view it's finished. Evidenced from our discussion here though, the T & C's are hardly simple to explain (even if the guard HAD let me read them, I couldn't be sure of what I'd signed!)
I think I'd just like to write a letter about the attitude and the treatment of the member of staff, as well as perhaps his lack of training. (Paying the full fare immediately has been stressful!) Where do you recommend I send it?
Thanks, Apple