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Fantasy: My transpennine electrification/upgrade ideas

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ST PADDY

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Trans Pennine Route upgrade New Journey Opportunities throughElectrification. Firstly an apology, yes the context was left out apologies for that. Secondly, the timetable didn’t down load as it was meant to, apologies for that too this has been removed as it was causing distrotion to the article, a copy of the timetable can be found at the bottom of the oxted summary as an attached file.

It is to be hoped, that the announced upgrade and electrification of the Trans Pennine route via Huddersfield is also to include the routes to Hull, Scarborough and Middlesbrough, as there would be no point in electrifying only the core route as this would only benefit one service, that to Newcastle.
The upgrade and electrification package should also include the route via Wakefield Kirkgate and Castleford to Church Fenton and Gascoigne wood Junction.This would provide a useful diversionary route and could see new/increased Trans Pennine services as well adding Wakefield and Castleford to the TPE network.
The context
The article was designed to show that an electrified diversionary route via Wakefield could benefit passengers from said places and how those services could pay for the coat of electrification by adding new chargeable mileage for Network rail.

This is as follows
• 4700 new chargeable miles per day for network rail (28200 miles a week) from new TPE services using diversionary/upgraded freight route. (based on 34 trains a day, 0644 -2244, each way, 6 days a week)
• 4700 New chargeable miles a day for Network rail (28200 miles a week) from Northern services using upgraded freight route. (based on 34 trains a day, 0644 -2244, each way, 6 days a week)
• New catering and other franchises for network rail at both stations.
• New passenger journeys from people switching from road to rail as a result of the new direct services. EG; at present a rail journey from Castleford to York (one change Leeds) takes 61minutes (58 minutes if you make a plus 3 min connection) at £12.50. Does not include time from home to station) against a car journey of 45 minutes, at speed limit (includes ten minutes for parking) cost £4-7 for parking depending on location, £10 for petrol (round trip, based on 30 mpg at £1.30 a litre) A direct rail journey would take twenty minutes (40 minutes, with20 min from home, based on bus times.) A projected cost of £7-10 would make this an attractive alternative than going via Leeds, or car, though £6 may be a better introductory price.

Note. Mileage relates only to diversionary/upgraded freight route, as this is where the capital outlay would need to be re-coped by Network rail.

yes, Wakefield/Castleford are in a back water, because everything at the moment goes via Leeds, but look at Brighouse, this was also a back water, until services commenced from Leeds –Huddersfield via Bradford, now they have a direct hourly service to Leeds and Manchester as well, yet Brighouse isn’t as big as Castleford let alone Wakefield. KIRKGATE itself is being upgraded, because the new express service Leeds – Sheffield (which will soon need extra services to cater for demand) is bringing in new passengers. We have all seen new services introduced where patronage has risen beyond the projected increasee, Huddersfield - Wakefield and Castleford would be no exception.
This of course is not the only reason the Wakefield route should be electrified. The electrification of the Trans Pennine route its self is only going to bring more passengers and more trains to Leeds, which is already full. There is little or no room for further expansion, no matter how much money you throw at it. The new hotels to the south side of the station stop any expansion in that direction, while the car park to the north side is already earmarked for platform O. Once that side is built on there is nowhere to go; so In the short term (rather than later) the only alternative will be to bypass Leeds via Wakefield/Castleford, this must be seen as an opportunity as well as a necessity rather than an obstacle, after all the route via Wakefield lends its self to 100 mph running easier than the present route via Leeds, and could see faster TPE services Manchester –York. This would also allow for the continued expansion of TPE services once Leeds is full. This would be in form of a dual service with passengers for north of Leeds benefiting from 100mph services via Wakefield, while other TPE services would run via Leeds for passengers from Leeds to both Manchester/Newcastle etc.
In the long term this could see the following TPE services.

• present style TPE services with similar stopping patterns via Leeds/Wakefield to same destinations

New nonstop express services via Leeds/Wakefield, running express through Huddersfield & Wakefield (100 mph)to benefit from new 100 mph limit Marsden - York (50 -70 mph Castleford unless re- aligned to 100 mph by slewing the line through the present (90 mph via Dewsbury, 65 mph Morley.)

One cautionary note, with open access there s is nothing to stop a competitor to TPE from running these services instead. This would see the present passengers from Wakefield/Castleford that travel via Leeds to use TPE service siphoned off to the new services. If TPE wish to maintain a monopoly on their passengers then maybe they should contemplate running this service.

Set out below is an example of what could be achieved including outward and return timetables. I have tried to fit the new services into the present schedules as best I can to show that there is the capacity there without the need for a major recast of the present services. However there are some small changes that are needed to ensure the new times would work, these (with the exception of the Liverpool –Scarborough/Bradford-Wakefield) are only of the odd minute or so. As can be seen when compared with the present timetable the new services fit in quiet well with little disturbance. I have not included any freight diagrams as I was unable to find any times for them. Though as can be seen there is still plenty of scope within the table for freight to run.

TRANS PENNINE SERVICES VIA WAKEFIELD There would be an hourly service from Manchester - Hull calling at Huddersfield, Wakefield KIRKGATE, Castleford, Selby and BROUGH. This, along with the present local service from Huddersfield - Wakefield would provide a half hourly service (29/31) between these two large population centres. This would see the Bradford – Wakefield service retimed to leave Huddersfield at xx21. This is done by retiming the departure from Halifax to xx58 allowing an xx18 arrival at Huddersfield. This retime to Leave Huddersfield at xx21 would also require the return Wakefield – Bradford service to be retimed by one minute to leave Huddersfield at xx24 (see table two) so as to give the required three minute spacing between services.This in turn requires a one minute retime of the following T.P.E service from xx27 to xx28 this is to keep the present four minute spacing of the two services and to avoid the T.P.E service catching the Bradford – Wakefield service at THORNHILL L.N.W.R. Junction. A right time arrival at Leeds for the T.P.E service can still be achieved by a one minute reduction in the recovery time approaching Leeds. As can be seen this fits neatly into the present service pattern. The xx13 Leeds –Manchester via Brighouse would also need a slight retiming to leave Dewsbury at xx31, this is to avoid path confliction at THORNHILL L.N.W.R Junction as both services would, at present timings pass at xx31. There would also be an extra Manchester airport – York T.P.E service; calling at Piccadilly, Huddersfield, WAKEFIELD KIRKGATE, Castleford and York, providing a direct service Wakefield and Castleford to York as well as with Manchester airport. After Church Fenton this service would switch to the Leeds line to avoid path confliction on arrival at York with the East Coasts xx31/32 arrivals.
The major change comes with the Liverpool – Scarborough service which would run with a portion to Hull and divide/join at Huddersfield. This not only provides Wakefield with a service to Manchester but also a 33/27minute service Manchester –Hull and a regular two trains an hour Selby – Hull. This service would lose three minutes at Huddersfield to detaching the Hull portion. However as this service presently has twenty four minutes Huddersfield –Leeds against twenty minutes for other T.P.E services it can still be right time arrival at Leeds. One further point (if so desired) the extra T.P.E service (the xx44 Manchester Airport – York service) could be attached at York to the Liverpool - Scarborough service giving a direct Scarborough to Manchester Airport service. This would suffer no loss of time as the Liverpool service already waits five minutes at York. This also gives a 25/35 minute service Wakefield/Castleford - Scarborough.
The present Grand Central services causes a problem for the Liverpool-Scarborough/Hull service as its current times have to fit in between both portions of the Liverpool- Scarborough/Hull service from Heaton lodge – Thorn hill L.N.W.R. Junctions.The only way round this, without retiming the Grand Central service is for the Hull portion to wait ten minutes in Huddersfield. This is unfortunate but fits into the remit of this article of keeping the present times where possible, however a retime for the Grand central service to run three minutes later would allow the Hull portion to leave Huddersfield at xx50 and precede the Grand Central service to Wakefield. However this confliction of paths would only happen three times a day so the Hull portion would be able to depart Huddersfield at xx50 all other times.

In the opposite direction the Hull/Scarborough – Liverpool times fit neatly into the present pattern allowing the Wakefield – Bradford to remain as is, giving a 24/36 minute service Wakefield –Huddersfield as well as an even half hourly service Hull -Selby. The attachment of the Hull portion to the Scarborough – Liverpool at Huddersfield would see this service leave Huddersfield five minutes later. This however could be made up by a reduction in the recovery allowance on the approach to Manchester. The present xx30 Huddersfield – Manchester Victoria service would need to be retimed to xx40 and be looped at Marsden. The return of the extra York – Manchester Airport T.P.E service could, as on the outward journey run through from Scarborough. This would detach at York from the present Liverpool service without any loss of time.This would be achieved by a one minute reduction in the recovery allowance on the approach to York, which in turns gives a three minute wait at York, enough to detach the portion. As on the outward journey this would give a 25/35 minute Scarborough – Castleford/Wakefield service, see table 2.
The Grand Central service would depart Wakefield three minutes later, this is the easiest option other than rearranging three services that would end up with tight times between Wakefield and HORURY Junction This means that the Wakefield – Bradford would be scheduled to take thirteen minutes to Brighouse so as to follow the Grand Central service to Bradford as per the current Timetable. This would see the recovery time for the Wakefield Bradford from Brighouse - Halifax reduced by four minutes, this restores the service to its present times to Bradford.
I have not included a half hourly Manchester – Wakefield service as the local Huddersfield - Wakefield service gives a 29/31 minute frequency. However once patronage has built up such a service could run, with the Bradford – Wakefield reverting back to its present time and the T.P.E service taking up the retimed xx21 path.

SHEFFIELD - LEEDS To give a half hourly service Wakefield/Castleford to York there would be an extra express service (departing on the hour) from Sheffield to York via Barnsley, this would continue onto Scarborough as it fits neatly into a half hourly pattern between the two, see table 1. This extra service gives three trains an hour Sheffield – Wakefield but not Leeds.To address this extra service (Sheffield – York/Scarborough) would carry a through portion to Leeds which would divide/join at WAKEFIELD KIRKGATE. As can be seen from the proposed table the xx18 would run as present with the xx51 brought forward to xx37 while the additional service would leave on the hour giving an 18/19/21 minute interval. However the xx37 retime is problematic as it affects two other services, the xx36 Sheffield –Huddersfield & xx41Sheffiled - Bridlington both of which would need to be retimed to maintain the present balance of services. As the xx37 express needs to run in front of the present Sheffield - Huddersfield service so as to maintain a regular interval service and not be held up by the stopper it would run in the path of the present xx36 Sheffield – Huddersfield which itself would be retimed to follow at xx40.
This keeps the present two trains an hour Sheffield – Barnsley, though now at a 34/26 minute interval, this adds three minutes to the schedule of the xx37. This extra time would be lost at Barnsley so as to maintain an even twenty minute services pattern to Leeds. This leaves the xx41 Sheffield – Bridlington service which would need to be retimed to depart at xx44. However, as far as I can see these new times are workable

In the opposite direction we would see the xx32 Leeds -Sheffield stopper service via Castleford retimed to xx35, this is to keep this service behind the Leeds – Sheffield express at WAKEFIELD KIRKGATE, see table 2, also the xx00 Leeds - KNOTTINGLEY would be retimed to xx05 so as to keep the half hourly service to Castleford
Finally, the extra Sheffield – Leeds express service could also start/terminate at Nottingham and run via Mansfield providing a second direct service between the three major cities and a direct service Mansfield etc to Sheffield, Leeds, York & Scarborough.
This, however, would need the present Nottingham – Mansfield/Worksop service to be brought forward by ten minutes so that the times could match up, (though they are fine on the outward journey) even then the service would have to run express Mansfield – Sheffield/vice versa as the present schedules of both the Sheffield – Lincoln/Nottingham- Worksop services conflict with a projected schedule for the service to run as a stopper which would probably be preferred over an express at such an early stage of any new service. There would be a stop at SHIREOAKS in either direction to allow passengers from DARNELL, KIVETON etc to change for Nottingham etc and vice versa. Passengers between Whitwell and Mansfield/vice versa would still, as at present need to Change at Worksop to/from Sheffield.

To run the service as a stopper there would need to be a recast of both the present Sheffield – Worksop/Worksop - Nottingham services. The new Leeds – Sheffield express service could then be used to run a half hourly service Sheffield - Worksop/Worksop – Nottingham until patronage has built up for a further recast.
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PS A plea for help. please, Could anyone pass on the relavent instructions to down load a triemtable type document from mirco soft word 2007 to this web site in the proper format I would be most gratefull thank you.
 
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OxtedL

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<see above for post content>
Executive Summary for ease of digestion :p
  • Hopefully when electrifying the North TP they will also wire the routes to Hull, Middlesbrough and Scarborough, allowing the benefits to be felt on more than one route.
  • They could also usefully wire up via Kirkgate, Castleford and Church Fenton, both as a diversion but also to potentially add these places to the TPE network.
  • In the post is set out a plan for post upgrade service patterns, including details about timetabling. These are designed to fit into current schedules to avoid a major recast. On the whole they seem to fit well. Freight paths are not supplied but there should be room for freight.
  • Transpennine via Wakefield
    • New hourly service from Manchester to Hull via Huddersfield, Kirkgate, Castleford and Selby. This benefits Huddersfield-Wakefield particularly by increasing frequency to 2tph. Extensive details are given on how services could be re-timed to achieve this.
    • New hourly Manchester Airport to York via Piccadilly, Huddersfield, Kirkgate and Castleford. Some fiddling would be required south of York. This could potentially be attached to Scarborough services giving a direct Scarborough-Airport service.
    • Liverpool to Scarborough services to carry a portion for Hull, splitting at Huddersfield [OxtedL notes: unclear whether this is the same service Huddersfield to Hull as above] Further details about timings are given.
  • Sheffield - Leeds
    • To give a half hourly service from Wakefield/Castleford to York, an new hourly express service from Sheffield to York via Barnsley is proposed. This could continue to Scarborough. To balance Sheffield to Wakefield against Leeds services, this could carry a through portion to Leeds. [OxtedL notes: unclear why or where it splits] Something about extending this (or possibly some other Leeds to Sheffield express) to Nottingham is also mentioned. As well as something about Worksop.

DISCLAIMER: OxtedL takes no responsibility for the accuracy of this summary. ;)

There's possibly some interesting ideas in there, but they are drowned out slightly by the excessive unnecessary detail, as well as the stranger ideas.
I've attached the tables given in an excel file, they've been typed in an awkward way. I'm not convinced I understand them.
 

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northwichcat

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There would be an hourly service from Manchester - Hull calling at Huddersfield, Wakefield KIRKGATE, Castleford, Selby and BROUGH. This, along with the present local service from Huddersfield - Wakefield would provide a half hourly service (29/31) between these two large population centres.

Not that many people travel between the two places and a number of those that do change to XC/EC services at Wakefield Westgate.

I would envisage more and well timed Huddersfield to Wakefield Westgate services helping with North TPE overcrowding by not having all the Huddersfield-Doncaster/Birmingham/London etc. traffic going via Leeds.
 

Wath Yard

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Quite a lot of thought and effort has obviously gone into those suggestions, but what they could do and what they should do are not necessarily the same thing, and what they will do may be something entirely different.

I suspect the case for electrifying Scarborough is pretty weak, though they may possibly make a political decision rather than an economic one. I’m also not sure Middlesbrough is worth the money for 1 tph, but again we will see. I can't see any reason why Wakefield or Castleford would be added to the TPE network, they are pretty much back waters.
 

MidnightFlyer

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I've not read it fully, but does this leave nmo direct Leeds-Hull trains? ATM the hourly TPEs are the only services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Edit - Seems it doesn't, apologies.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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[*]New hourly Manchester Airport to York via Piccadilly, Huddersfield, Kirkgate and Castleford. Some fiddling would be required south of York. This could potentially be attached to Scarborough services giving a direct Scarborough-Airport service.

I am somewhat concerned with the route, described above, from Castleford onwards to Milford Junction, as there are no scheduled passenger services over this line, which is used as a diversionary route only. This line is only rated for freight work and I wonder what would be the infrastructural costs involved to reinstate it to the standards required for new TPE services. What are the speed restrictions on parts of this route at present?
 

DaveNewcastle

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It would be helpful to understand the status of this thread's 1st post.
where has it come from?
who has been consulted and with what responses?
who has adopted this proposal?
which of the gaps identified in the RUS are being addressed? (with references please)
where is the budget and the revenue & capital income?
what is the CBR?
and
New Journey Opportunities through Electrification
It is to be hoped, . . . . .
who is hoping this?

I would find it easier to consider the post if I had the context, thanks.
 

185

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I've actually worked a train Picc, Hudds, Wakey, Cas, Selby, Hull in service in 2008.

Twas a power failure at Leeds, driver and me were called and asked if we signed the Altofts Jn & Gas' Wood routes, which we did, being both ex-ATN crew.

Was quicker than going via Leeds. :)
 

SuperOwl86

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I will throw a spanner into the Sheffield departure. May be I have missed it but you said you would move the Bridlington Service to xx.44, Where would you move the xx.44 to Lincoln to?
 

billio

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I suspect the case for electrifying Scarborough is pretty weak, though they may possibly make a political decision rather than an economic one. I’m also not sure Middlesbrough is worth the money for 1 tph, but again we will see. I can't see any reason why Wakefield or Castleford would be added to the TPE network, they are pretty much back waters.

Wakefield (including Castleford, Normanton), the 89th largest city in Europe, with a population of 322,000. I think improving East-West train services might do something for improving the economy of this former coal mining region.

After TPE electrification, perhaps the residual TPE diesel services could run by the Castleford/Wakefield route rather than Leeds.
 

tbtc

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I can see the logic in running something like Huddersfield - Wakefield - Castleford - York (esp if the XC service is split at Leeds, post electrification of TPE North). There's a lot of demand for longer distance services that doesn't involve central Leeds.

However the problem is what you divert this way. To divert (say) Middlesbrough - Manchester via Castleford/ Wakefield would mean Teesside loses its direct service to Leeds. Is that worth it?

As a start, I'd suggest the following:

Split the Grand Tour at Huddersfield, with the Huddersfield - Wakefield service extended to Castleford (thus avoiding the current situation of 158s running to Wakefield whilst Pacers run to Manchester, due to the twelve unit interworking)
Introduce an additional Leeds - Castleford - Pontefract - Knottingly service each hour (e.g make it half hourly in total)
Replace the current Sheffield - Wakefield - Castleford - Leeds service with a Sheffield - Wakefield - Pontefract service
This shouldn't need more units than we use at the moment.
Then, when additional units are spare, look at extending the Huddersfield - Wakefield - Castleford service to York
 

billio

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However the problem is what you divert this way. To divert (say) Middlesbrough - Manchester via Castleford/ Wakefield would mean Teesside loses its direct service to Leeds. Is that worth it?

I am not sure what the York - Leeds service would be post electrification, but perhaps cross-platform interchange at York between electrified services from Newcastle to Leeds (and London) is feasible. I assume that some of the electrified TPE services would start from the south facing bay platforms in York.

To make best use of the TPE electrification I think a major rethink of the way all northern east coast services operate will be required.

But, yes, I agree with your idea.
 

YorkshireBear

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As a start, I'd suggest the following:

Split the Grand Tour at Huddersfield, with the Huddersfield - Wakefield service extended to Castleford (thus avoiding the current situation of 158s running to Wakefield whilst Pacers run to Manchester, due to the twelve unit interworking)
Introduce an additional Leeds - Castleford - Pontefract - Knottingly service each hour (e.g make it half hourly in total)
Replace the current Sheffield - Wakefield - Castleford - Leeds service with a Sheffield - Wakefield - Pontefract service
This shouldn't need more units than we use at the moment.
Then, when additional units are spare, look at extending the Huddersfield - Wakefield - Castleford service to York

A lot of logic in your sugestions and in principle i agree but just going to raise a few points with it.

Darton and Normanton loose service to Leeds, for Darton i think maintaining their Barnsley service is more key which you have done. But Normanton has 1tph off peak and 2tph peak into leeds i think that would be a big loss.

Certainly agree with splitting the grand tour it seems so pointless. Would anone here have any service use the Westgate Kirkgate curve? In my ideal world there would be a circular service going leeds leeds via Outwood, Westgate, Kirkgate, Normanton.... you get the idea.
 

northwichcat

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Was there any reason for creating the Grand Tour, other than operational convenience when the Manchester to Wakefield service was cut with the Huddersfield-Wakefield section going to ATN?
 

tbtc

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To make best use of the TPE electrification I think a major rethink of the way all northern east coast services operate will be required

I agree with you there, which makes some of these discussions difficult (see also "Lancashire Triangle" etc), because the inevitable recast means that a number of the current services will no longer run. The ECML north of York could do with a shake up, there are currently five York - Newcastle services (on top of the services to Teesside), and some hours only one of those services heading north of York is electric.

A lot of logic in your sugestions and in principle i agree but just going to raise a few points with it.

Darton and Normanton loose service to Leeds, for Darton i think maintaining their Barnsley service is more key which you have done. But Normanton has 1tph off peak and 2tph peak into leeds i think that would be a big loss.

Certainly agree with splitting the grand tour it seems so pointless. Would anone here have any service use the Westgate Kirkgate curve? In my ideal world there would be a circular service going leeds leeds via Outwood, Westgate, Kirkgate, Normanton.... you get the idea.

You'd probably have to stop some of the Sheffield - Leeds "semi fast" services at Normanton, I agree its not perfect.

The Westgate - Kirkgate chord is a tricky one. At the moment the Grand Tour service blocks the ECML in both directions as it travels between the chord and the platform north of Westgate (by the prison) twice an hour.

If giving Huddersfield a link to the ECML (apart from the one at Leeds) is so important then there's scope for a Huddersfield - Kirkgate - Pontefract - Adwick - Doncaster service (replacing part of the Lincoln - Adwick service).

Was there any reason for creating the Grand Tour, other than operational convenience when the Manchester to Wakefield service was cut with the Huddersfield-Wakefield section going to ATN?

I think it was just operational convenience.

Before that there was

  • Manchester Victoria - Bradford - Selby
  • Manchester Victoria - Bradford - York (slow east of Leeds)
  • Blackpool - Bradford - Scarborough (or other TPE destination)
  • Huddersfield - Bradford - Leeds
The recast turned most of these diagrams into a twelve hour cycle (something like Manchester - Selby - Wakefield - Leeds - Manchester - Leeds - Manchester, but that's off the top of my head), which must be a nightmare to allocate stock to (as any faster longer distance DMUs are stuck on the Wakefield trundle whilst Pacers are in Manchester).
 

northwichcat

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I think it was just operational convenience.

Before that there was

  • Manchester Victoria - Bradford - Selby
  • Manchester Victoria - Bradford - York (slow east of Leeds)
  • Blackpool - Bradford - Scarborough (or other TPE destination)
  • Huddersfield - Bradford - Leeds
The recast turned most of these diagrams into a twelve hour cycle (something like Manchester - Selby - Wakefield - Leeds - Manchester - Leeds - Manchester, but that's off the top of my head), which must be a nightmare to allocate stock to (as any faster longer distance DMUs are stuck on the Wakefield trundle whilst Pacers are in Manchester).

Wait a minute the Manchester-Selby services and interworking Caldervale diagrams with Wakefield locals started when a third Caldervale service got added under Northern Rail. The Selby-Wakefield service started under ATN.

I was really getting at why ATN created a through service between Selby and Wakefield in the first place, opposed to why Northern drew up diagrams that interwork with the Caldervales.
 

tbtc

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Wait a minute the Manchester-Selby services and interworking Caldervale diagrams with Wakefield locals started when a third Caldervale service got added under Northern Rail. The Selby-Wakefield service started under ATN.

I was really getting at why ATN created a through service between Selby and Wakefield in the first place, opposed to why Northern drew up diagrams that interwork with the Caldervales.

I thought it was only Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield - Wakefield under ATN? I thought that the Selby bit was only added when the Caldervales were recast?

AFAIK its just like the Scunthorpe - Sheffield - Lincoln - Sheffield - Adwick - Sheffield - Scunthorpe service - tagging together lots of little local bits into one long complicated interworked service (rather than to meet any longer distance demand).
 

YorkshireBear

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I agree with you there, which makes some of these discussions difficult (see also "Lancashire Triangle" etc), because the inevitable recast means that a number of the current services will no longer run. The ECML north of York could do with a shake up, there are currently five York - Newcastle services (on top of the services to Teesside), and some hours only one of those services heading north of York is electric.



You'd probably have to stop some of the Sheffield - Leeds "semi fast" services at Normanton, I agree its not perfect.

The Westgate - Kirkgate chord is a tricky one. At the moment the Grand Tour service blocks the ECML in both directions as it travels between the chord and the platform north of Westgate (by the prison) twice an hour.

If giving Huddersfield a link to the ECML (apart from the one at Leeds) is so important then there's scope for a Huddersfield - Kirkgate - Pontefract - Adwick - Doncaster service (replacing part of the Lincoln - Adwick service).

I dont think slowing down the expresses will help the siuation. As i have suggested before i think getting them faster would help alleviate some overcrowding on XC between leeds and sheffield, so i wouldn't do that.
With TPE electrification you MAY be able to operate the london services on a circular route thus releiving a few paths through westgate to be able to operate the circle i suggested. A few improvements to the layout at westgate to make it more flexible and the turn outs a tad quicker could also help.
And for what it is worth i think Huddersfield has good enough links to ECMl at leeds its hardly a poor service is it??? You could even then skip outwood on some of the sheffield/doncaster leeds stoppers as im sure the main outwood market is leeds and wakefield so the circle can take the demand.
 

ST PADDY

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Firstly an apology, yes the context was left out apologies for that. Secondly, the timetable didn’t down load as it was meant to, apologies for that too.

The context The article was designed to show that an electrified diversionary route via Wakefield could benefit passengers from said places and how those services could pay for the coat of electrification by adding new chargeable mileage for Network rail.
This is as follows
• 4700 new chargeable miles per day for network rail (28200 miles a week) from new TPE services using diversionary/upgraded freight route. (based on 34 trains a day, 0644 -2244, each way, 6 days a week)
• 4700 New chargeable miles a day for Network rail (28200 miles a week) from Northern services using upgraded freight route. (based on 34 trains a day, 0644 -2244, each way, 6 days a week)
• New catering and other franchises for network rail at both stations.
• New passenger journeys from people switching from road to rail as a result of the new direct services.
EG; at present a rail journey from Castleford to York (one change Leeds) takes 61minutes (58 minutes if you make a plus 3 min connection) at £12.50. Does not include time from home to station) against a car journey of 45 minutes, at speed limit (includes ten minutes for parking) cost £4-7 for parking depending on location, £10 for petrol (round trip, based on 30 mpg at £1.30 a litre) A direct rail journey would take twenty minutes (40 minutes, with20 min from home, based on bus times.) A projected cost of £7-10 would make this an attractive alternative than going via Leeds, or car, though £6 may be a better introductory price.

Note. Mileage relates only to diversionary/upgraded freight route, as this is where the capital outlay would need to be re-coped by Network rail.
yes, Wakefield/Castleford are in a back water, because everything at the moment goes via Leeds, but look at Brighouse, this was also a back water, until services commenced from Leeds –Huddersfield via Bradford, now they have a direct hourly service to Leeds and Manchester as well, yet Brighouse isn’t as big as Castleford let alone Wakefield. KIRKGATE itself is being upgraded, because the new express service Leeds – Sheffield (which will soon need extra services to cater for demand) is bringing in new passengers. We have all seen new services introduced where patronage has risen beyond the projected increasee, Huddersfield - Wakefield and Castleford would be no exception. This of course is not the only reason the Wakefield route should be electrified. The electrification of the Trans Pennine route its self is only going to bring more passengers and more trains to Leeds, which is already full.
There is little or no room for further expansion, no matter how much money you throw at it. The new hotels to the south side of the station stop any expansion in that direction, while the car park to the north side is already earmarked for platform O. Once that side is built on there is nowhere to go; so In the short term (rather than later) the only alternative will be to bypass Leeds via Wakefield/Castleford, this must be seen as an opportunity as well as a necessity rather than an obstacle, after all the route via Wakefield lends its self to 100 mph running easier than the present route via Leeds, and could see faster TPE services Manchester –York. This would also allow for the continued expansion of TPE services once Leeds is full. This would be in form of a dual service with passengers for north of Leeds benefiting from 100mph services via Wakefield, while other TPE services would run via Leeds for passengers from Leeds to both Manchester/Newcastle etc.

In the long term this could see the following TPE services.
• present style TPE services with similar stopping patterns via Leeds/Wakefield to same destinations
• New nonstop express services via Leeds/Wakefield, running express through Huddersfield & Wakefield (100 mph)to benefit from new 100 mph limit Marsden - York (50 -70 mph Castleford unless re- aligned to 100 mph by slewing the line through the present (90 mph via Dewsbury, 65 mph Morley.)
One cautionary note, with open access there s is nothing to stop a competitor to TPE from running these services instead. This would see the present passengers from Wakefield/Castleford that travel via Leeds to use TPE service siphoned off to the new services. If TPE wish to maintain a monopoly on their passengers then maybe they should contemplate running this service.

PS A plea for help. Please if anyone could pass on the relivent instructions to down load a timetable type document from a micro soft word 2007 page to this web page in the correct format I would be most gratefull thak you.
 

Waverley125

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personally I don't think Wakefield & Cas justify the removal of TPE services from Leeds, but I would support the running of a regular Huddersfield-York semi fast via Wakefield i.e. Huddersfield, Mirfield, Wakefield Kirkgate, Castleford, Sherburn in Elmet, Church Fenton, York.
 

northwichcat

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I thought it was only Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield - Wakefield under ATN? I thought that the Selby bit was only added when the Caldervales were recast?

The Selby bit was certainly there before the Caldervale services were recast. It was there in May 2005 in both directions (Selby-Halifax-Wakefield and Wakefield-Halifax-Selby) but I can't confirm whether or not the Selby extension existed for certain under ATN.

The Caldervale recast saw services starting at Selby going to Wakefield via Halifax, but services from Victoria terminating at Selby in the other direction and hence the interworking.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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personally I don't think Wakefield & Cas justify the removal of TPE services from Leeds, but I would support the running of a regular Huddersfield-York semi fast via Wakefield i.e. Huddersfield, Mirfield, Wakefield Kirkgate, Castleford, Sherburn in Elmet, Church Fenton, York.

Hell will freeze over first before anyone running the Transpennine franchise will consider moving any services away from the lucrative money-pot that is Leeds station. What does anyone propose the existing Transpennine commuters to and from Leeds use instead ?

The next step on this line of reasoning will be to see how many Transpennine services can be relocated away from Manchester Piccadilly..:shock:
 

Nym

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You mean like so many people in here have been mooting about a link between Cheadle Hume and Heald Green Jcns and using this to send some TPE services direct to Manchester Airport via Guide Bridge, Denton, Heaton Norris, Stockport, Cheadle Hume, Cheadle - Heald Green Link, Heald Green Jcns, Airport? That always made me laugh.

However, I see no reason for a local service run by northern to run from Huddersfeild to Selby or Hull via Wakefeild. Selby would be a more logical terminus to avoid diesel under wires, unless that route where electrified then it could extend to York or Hull via Selby.
 

Nym

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Northern hub in it's current form and my understanding retains the same number of tph between Leeds and Manchester Piccadilly, if not increasing it to potentially 5 or 6tph...

TPE N 2tph Leeds & Beyond - Manchester Airport via Victoria, Cord and Piccadillu
TPE N 2tph Semi Fasts Piccadilly - Leeds calling some stations and going via Guide Bridge
And...
At least 1tph Calder Valley from Leeds extending via Cord and Piccadilly from Victoria to Airport, potentially 2tph ;)
 

billio

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• New passenger journeys from people switching from road to rail as a result of the new direct services.
EG; at present a rail journey from Castleford to York (one change Leeds) takes 61minutes (58 minutes if you make a plus 3 min connection) at £12.50. Does not include time from home to station) against a car journey of 45 minutes, at speed limit (includes ten minutes for parking) cost £4-7 for parking depending on location, £10 for petrol (round trip, based on 30 mpg at £1.30 a litre) A direct rail journey would take twenty minutes (40 minutes, with20 min from home, based on bus times.) A projected cost of £7-10 would make this an attractive alternative than going via Leeds, or car, though £6 may be a better introductory price.

A 20 minute service from Castleford to York would create a very useful commuter route into York. Compare rents and house prices in York with those in Castleford.

Thinking further about open access, a service could also run along the Calder valley into Victoria, Piccadilly and the airport, serving Mirfield, Sowerby Bridge, Todmorden and Rochdale. The Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway perhaps ? :).

Trying to jam all services through an overloaded Leeds is preventing a lot of very useful journey opportunities, for example from Calder valley towns southwards from Piccadilly, or north from York.
 
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