Lewisham2221
Established Member
Doesn't say much for LM working conditions if they're losing a substantial number of drivers to other TOCs/FOCs though.
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The London Midland Staff Shortage and Cancellation/Bustitution Thread
- Thread starter Rich McLean
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Doesn't say much for LM working conditions if they're losing a substantial number of drivers to other TOCs/FOCs though.
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BestWestern
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I don't think you can really 'blame' other companies, if vast numbers of LM's staff are keen to jump ship to do the same job elsewhere there is clearly a problem. Most if not all TOCs will gladly accept readily qualified Drivers over trainees who won't be productive for a year or more, you can't really expect firms to turn away promising applicants just because their existing employer has staffing issues.
That's not the real issue though. The natural rate of ablation of staff has been constant since 2007. LM have recruited sod all since then.
They had a massive influx of ex-DBS drivers at the end of 2010 too. There really is no excuse.
They still have a top link at Northampton of which half refuse to sign a core route, started 110 staff training late, have removed pretty much all diversionary knowledge and block staff actively trying to keep the job going when it gets sticky, block county council funding to improve Marston Vale services so they don't have to run it and are just happy to run their entire operation into the grounds as they won't be doing it in 2 years time.
It's not like LM aren't an attractive operation either. £43k basic, which is only £2k less than lower links at XC Brum with more Overtime to boot.
They're a bunch of cowboys. People leave the operation because its **** to work for. The turnover rate isn't as high as this PR campaign makes it out to be - it is simply that LM have been caught with trousers round ankles and haven't recruited for two years.
O L Leigh
Established Member
Only true for new entrants to XC. The basic rate of pay for XC drivers is the same irrespective of location or link.
OT is also available, although whether or not there is more or less than at LM is a moot point. It usually depends on many factors specific to any given day. One day there may be a messroom full of spare traincrew but the very next day the TCS will be scratching around looking for any available staff to work trains.
The issue is the QUALITY of the work on offer. LM are a commuter company with high-intensity work and frequent stops whereas XC have longer distance trips but generally at a lower intensity and with fewer stops. If you're currently a driver for LM at any of the depots in and around Brum, why wouldn't you want to look at bettering yourself by going to XC or VWC...?
Funny. I seem to recall having an interview with LM in May of this year having registered my details with them on their website. Seemed like a rolling programme of recruitment for qualified drivers at all locations from the looks of things.
The real problem was that, given the options available to me at that time, did I really want to go to LM...?
O L Leigh
causton
Established Member
So in effect you're saying that LM were looking for already qualified drivers...
...but the already qualified drivers would be already with LM or another commuter TOC and actually looking for an intercity-style TOC...
...and the people that actually wanted to join LM were not yet qualified, but LM weren't willing to train (enough) people?
...but the already qualified drivers would be already with LM or another commuter TOC and actually looking for an intercity-style TOC...
...and the people that actually wanted to join LM were not yet qualified, but LM weren't willing to train (enough) people?
O L Leigh
Established Member
Correct. All this talk about LM "doing nothing" is wrong.
Perhaps. LM are not special. Unless you wanted to relocate to a certain area and LM offer you a job, why would you want to go there when there are alternatives? XC in particular have been actively recruiting qualified drivers and offer better pay and a different type of work, together with the opportunity to progress.
I have no idea. Sounds like a suspiciously sweeping statement, especially as other people seem to have mentioned that they have former conductors currently undergoing driver training.
The problem with new entrants is the lag between knowing there is a need and having warm bodies in place to take up the load. Between the start of recruitment and having people out working productively is, for drivers at least, going to take not less than 18 months and probably 2 years. LM would have no warning about a sudden recruitment drive by, say, XC to cover lots of retirements. This affects ALL train operators, not just LM. It will take time to recruit and train enough replacements for all the drivers lost to other TOCs, etc. The fact that trains are being cancelled today is NOT indicative of a lack of engagement from the company. Knowing this with sufficient warning would require foresight on a truly unimaginable scale.
O L Leigh
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notadriver
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Are you staying with Abellio for now then O L Leigh?
Would it? FCC reached a similar position, and I know that the fault there lay with them stopping manpower planning. Head of Drivers has to be aware of what's happening around them, especially when they know that they regularly lose drivers to other TOCs. The scale of the current problem absolutely says that there has been a management failure IMO.
pitdiver
Member
It seems that 58 services have been cancelled today (sat 27th). On the NRES site it says check our FB page. Bloody patronising Oct 22nd last post "Hello Folks" No mention of today's debacle. I say brink back Silverlink even they didn't seem this bad. I think.
Daz28
Member
Can't you? If those companies refuse to take on trainee drivers because they cost too much, then poach drivers from companies like LM - in what way are certain companies not partly to blame? Why should they be allowed to expect LM to do all the donkey work for them, only for those trainees to immediately move on to work that doesn't involve 400 station stops a day? Sure, LM could protect themselves by placing clauses in employment contracts stating that you must give LM a minimum of 5 years (or maybe more) service after they've invested in you to train you up and in no way am I seeking to absolve LM of all blame, but let's at least have a balanced argument.
O L Leigh
Established Member
Every TOC would prefer a qualified driver ahead of a trainee, and some companies are in the enviable position to be able to fill all vacancies with drivers from other companies without the need to take on trainees. There's nothing that can be done about it. Drivers for companies like LM are likely to want to go elsewhere because it is seen as career progression, just the same as in any other industry you would want to work for a different employer if it progressed your career. This is hardly rocket science.
As for restricting newbies from jumping ship as soon as they are qualified, firstly I think you might find it legally difficult to enforce. Some companies may have a penalty payment included in their contracts, but you can't actually prevent someone from leaving. Besides, it tends not to be the newbies that are leaving anyway. It's drivers with a few years experience who want to move on.
Yes, FCC did go through this pain a few years ago. But how long did it take for them to dig themselves out of that particular hole? It was neither quick nor painless.
All I'm trying to get across is that this is a natural consequence of the job market and that the railways are no different from anywhere else. LM, in common with many other TOCs, will always be a "feeder company" due to the nature of their work. For the same reason they are less likely to attract qualified drivers from elsewhere.
O L Leigh
As for restricting newbies from jumping ship as soon as they are qualified, firstly I think you might find it legally difficult to enforce. Some companies may have a penalty payment included in their contracts, but you can't actually prevent someone from leaving. Besides, it tends not to be the newbies that are leaving anyway. It's drivers with a few years experience who want to move on.
Yes, FCC did go through this pain a few years ago. But how long did it take for them to dig themselves out of that particular hole? It was neither quick nor painless.
All I'm trying to get across is that this is a natural consequence of the job market and that the railways are no different from anywhere else. LM, in common with many other TOCs, will always be a "feeder company" due to the nature of their work. For the same reason they are less likely to attract qualified drivers from elsewhere.
O L Leigh
notadriver
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Bus companies never seem to be short of drivers for some reason. Also there are a few companies that don't seem to take on qualifieds such as Nat Ex East Anglia and C2C.
O L Leigh
Established Member
You may not see them advertising, but it doesn't mean they don't take qualified drivers.
O L Leigh
O L Leigh
SS4
Established Member
Looks like I picked the only day last week without cancellations for the great escape 
. If I needed to go to town though I'd be travelling by bus rather than train for reliability's sake.
. If I needed to go to town though I'd be travelling by bus rather than train for reliability's sake.It won't be beyond the wit of a lawyer to bring in an enforceable legal clause ensuring 5 years service or you make a payment of £#000 to buy yourself out of the contract.
Pumbaa - LM have recruited drivers, I have at least 2 drivers as mates who have passed out with LM since 2007, and those are just friends who I go fotting or nedding with. They aren't alone - I also have a friend who was an instructor at LM and he's trained several others. I do apologise if there are facts getting in the way of a good argument here!
And yes, LM will always run the risk of being a feeder company owing to their kind of work, but it's wrong for other companies to expect LM to do all the donkey work of recruiting and training, and the DfT should be stepping in here and making sure that all train companies are forced to recruit trainees as part of franchise agreements.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I'm just curious here.
LM is a Govia franchise.
Isn't it possible to source drivers temporarily from the other Govia operators?
And if other TOCs have increased their driver numbers, why is that, when overall services are pretty static?
LM is a Govia franchise.
Isn't it possible to source drivers temporarily from the other Govia operators?
And if other TOCs have increased their driver numbers, why is that, when overall services are pretty static?
They wouldn't have the route or possibly traction knowledge
The minimum service clause is as described that you have to pay back training costs-usually around 15k if you leave within a year and reducing from that for 3-5 years. Problem is you can't stop someone leaving. If they refuse to pay you take them to court and they then offer to pay it back on instalments of £1 a month. This can't legally be refused and so the TOC still won't make back its costs. I know of people who have left after a year or less to go to other TOCs and they have all been threatened with this but when they refused to pay anything the TOCs foumd they had no legal case to pursue it.
As has been said, LM should make themselves more desirable through work, pay and T&Cs and then drivers won't look elsewhere.
As has been said, LM should make themselves more desirable through work, pay and T&Cs and then drivers won't look elsewhere.
Lewisham2221
Established Member
Bus companies are very often short of being fully staffed. The difference here is that many bus drivers are willing to do the overtime, either voluntarily or with a bit of a nudge from management, to enhance their wage packet. I would imagine that, when they're already earning 30k+ a year, it's less of an incentive for a train driver to give their rest days.
OOI, which TOC's do this? I'd heard rumours of this before joining the industry but haven't heard of anyone actually doing it. Maybe it's just the threat of it, as mentioned?
A-driver - the problem with that is that the very nature of LMs work puts it at a disadvantage. And, if they're going to make it more attractive to people to stay, that means either wage increases or more annual leave for people etc etc. Well, that increases costs to the business, which then increases fares. That of course, is a political hot potato!
And of course, even what I'm proposing in terms of forcing companies to recruit trainees from within wouldn't solve the problem completely! As I say, it's a complex problem, and one that I repeat is not solely of LM's making.
And of course, even what I'm proposing in terms of forcing companies to recruit trainees from within wouldn't solve the problem completely! As I say, it's a complex problem, and one that I repeat is not solely of LM's making.
Pumbaa - LM have recruited drivers, I have at least 2 drivers as mates who have passed out with LM since 2007, and those are just friends who I go fotting or nedding with. They aren't alone - I also have a friend who was an instructor at LM and he's trained several others. I do apologise if there are facts getting in the way of a good argument here!
I know - I acknowledged that in my post. I was trying to illustrate that the numbers that they have recruited have fallen off a cliff since 2007 and that as turnover rate hasn't changed much (if at all, its within a tenth of a %) inept management is very much to blame.
There's no doubt that poor management is partly to blame Pumbaa, I wouldn't dispute that. It's just the problem has been made worse by factors outside their control as well. It's a problem that the industry as a whole needs to get together on and solve between them!
knight2004
Member
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- 31 Jul 2009
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- 101
Looks like the media are really starting to dig into LM's poor management, it's now in the Telegraph and twice on BBC news channel today, who can blame them, not a good day today. Nearly 100 trains cancelled/amended and also problems at Crewe earlier today will also have hampered their ability to run a decent service! Luckily my trains on and working
I somewhat disagree that It's the fault of operators poaching drivers actually.
It's a free market and like any job we are free to choose who we work for. It's a problem with privatisation that it occurs and it's why train drivers have such high wages. If a company need more drivers they can easily attract them from other companies by putting wages up. Then other companies have to increase their wages to compete. LM don't have bad wages but they are below other operators in the areas they have depots. They also have worse t&cs and worse work (and they can do something about that-I don't mean the routes or fact they run stoppers etc, its more the intensity of diagrams and repetitiveness of them which they can easily sort out-other similar TOCs like FCC manage to).
Plus a big factor is that they appear not to have recruited recently. It happens with many TOCs from time to time (like FCC a few years back). They stop recruiting to save money and get over reliant on rest day work. Problem is that when there arnt enough volunteers (school holidays etc) they have to cancel trains like has happened he and they can't force drivers to work overtime. I would imagen there is also more to it and other reasons why drivers won't work as much overtime at the moment but by the time TOC managers realise there is a problem it is far too late to sort it out. Even if they now recruit a load of qualified drivers with partial traction or road knowledge who can all start tomorrow they are still looking at a good few months to get them productive.
Companies work like this and I know of one other company starting downtime same road at the moment-refusing to replace leaving drivers, convinced that they can save money by reducing the number of drivers at some of their depots. It works on paper but as soon as a few take holidays, a few go ill, one or 2 come off track through incidents or medical grounds temporarily and less people volunteer for overtime they have these problems.
It's a free market and like any job we are free to choose who we work for. It's a problem with privatisation that it occurs and it's why train drivers have such high wages. If a company need more drivers they can easily attract them from other companies by putting wages up. Then other companies have to increase their wages to compete. LM don't have bad wages but they are below other operators in the areas they have depots. They also have worse t&cs and worse work (and they can do something about that-I don't mean the routes or fact they run stoppers etc, its more the intensity of diagrams and repetitiveness of them which they can easily sort out-other similar TOCs like FCC manage to).
Plus a big factor is that they appear not to have recruited recently. It happens with many TOCs from time to time (like FCC a few years back). They stop recruiting to save money and get over reliant on rest day work. Problem is that when there arnt enough volunteers (school holidays etc) they have to cancel trains like has happened he and they can't force drivers to work overtime. I would imagen there is also more to it and other reasons why drivers won't work as much overtime at the moment but by the time TOC managers realise there is a problem it is far too late to sort it out. Even if they now recruit a load of qualified drivers with partial traction or road knowledge who can all start tomorrow they are still looking at a good few months to get them productive.
Companies work like this and I know of one other company starting downtime same road at the moment-refusing to replace leaving drivers, convinced that they can save money by reducing the number of drivers at some of their depots. It works on paper but as soon as a few take holidays, a few go ill, one or 2 come off track through incidents or medical grounds temporarily and less people volunteer for overtime they have these problems.
Morgsie
Member
LM have recieved Breach Notices and Remedial Plans in the Past. n
100 cancellations today
Approx 550 cancellations in 3 weeks
It is time DfT discuss the option of taking away the Franchise
100 cancellations today
Approx 550 cancellations in 3 weeks
It is time DfT discuss the option of taking away the Franchise
Well, naturally you're entitled to your opinion a-driver. You seem to be arguing though that LM should be prepared to invest thousands of pounds in a trainee driver, only to see another company reap the benefits because it is, in your own words, a free market? Is that right?
Just off the top of my head - how about if say Freightliner recruit a newly-ish qualified driver from LM - should FL have to pay a football-esque transfer fee so that LM cover the costs of training up that driver?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In what way will removing the franchise from LM solve the problem?
Just off the top of my head - how about if say Freightliner recruit a newly-ish qualified driver from LM - should FL have to pay a football-esque transfer fee so that LM cover the costs of training up that driver?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In what way will removing the franchise from LM solve the problem?
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