Franchising timetable to be outlined (was East Coast franchise to be re-let)

Goatboy · 25 Mar 2013

Zoe said:
Would 390s not be likely to attract new passengers to the network? Personally I'm no fan of these trains but they do seem very popular with the general public on the West Coast.

Why would they? The reason they were popular on the West Coast is because they replaced stock which was largely falling to bits, the same cannot be said about the 225's. They also appeared around the same time as the entire line was thoroughly modernised - whereas the ECML is in nothing like the state the WCML was.

Most people wouldnt even notice the difference.

I doubt it's the 390 that attracts poeple anyway - they want a clean, modern train with seating and reasonable fares. Virgn often offer this, it's no wonder they are popular.

RailUK Forums

LNW-GW Joint · 25 Mar 2013

When talking about putative "Pendolinos" for EC, it is this version that is currently in production at Alstom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Pendolino
There are versions with tilt (for Swiss/Italian lines) and without tilt (for China/Poland) on order.
Note they have 26m coaches, like IEP.
Any UK version would have to be down-sized to fit our gauge, and maybe use the Class 390 bodyshell or some variant of it.
But I think any idea that a clone of the Virgin 390 is what is on offer is wide of the mark. It would be (almost) a brand new train.
The recent 4 new Virgin 390s were built to the original 10-year-old spec and would not be offered again.

Zoe · 25 Mar 2013

LNW-GW Joint said:
The recent 4 new Virgin 390s were built to the original 10-year-old spec and would not be offered again.

Isn't there still a derogation for the next few years which would allow more 390s to be built?

Pumbaa · 25 Mar 2013

BBC now acknowledging full timetable to be set out tomorrow: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21933080

The rail franchising process is to restart, the government will say on Tuesday, six months after the collapse of the West Coast deal stopped it.

Ten of the country's 16 franchises are due for renewal before the general election, expected to be held in 2015, and a timetable will be set out.

Ministers will prioritise the East Coast line deal, BBC transport correspondent Richard Westcott says.

It has been in public hands since National Express gave it up in 2009.

It is thought other franchise contracts will be extended to give officials more time to deal with the process.

Rail franchising was put on hold last year after a decision to award the UK's multi-billion-pound West Coast Main Line rail franchise to FirstGroup was scrapped by the government.

The transport secretary found there were "significant technical flaws" in the bidding process because of mistakes by Department for Transport staff and three civil servants were suspended.

Virgin Trains, which was given the right to run the West Coast line for a further two years while the system is sorted out, is understood to be keen to bid for the new East Coast contract.

Its contract to run the West Coast is also expected to be extended by another two years.

Any new franchise deals will put the focus more on passengers' views and satisfaction, our correspondent added.

barrykas · 25 Mar 2013

Potentially putting the cat amongst the pigeons here, but is there anything to stop DOR (as the incumbent franchisee) from submitting a bid?

Pumbaa · 25 Mar 2013

AFAIK the listed operator of last resort (DOR) is not permitted to bid.

Zoe · 25 Mar 2013

barrykas said:
Potentially putting the cat amongst the pigeons here, but is there anything to stop DOR (as the incumbent franchisee) from submitting a bid?

The Railways Act 1993 does not allow them to be a franchisee (DOR is wholly owned by a government department) so they can't bid for the franchise when it is let. They are the Operator of Last Resort.

LNW-GW Joint · 25 Mar 2013

Zoe said:
Isn't there still a derogation for the next few years which would allow more 390s to be built?

Possibly, but DfT already refused to take up options beyond the 106-car deal so they have expired.
There may still be a technical derogation but it is only usable on WC.
Virgin (and First for that matter) were believed to want the "Baby" variant (detailed design not known), but without a decent franchise length they won't be ordered.
If Virgin get a further extension it will be interesting to see if any new stock is authorised by DfT - if not it pushes the date for new WC stock back another two years.
Anyway, you wouldn't buy a 10-year-old mobile phone would you?
Technology has moved on.
In any case, for EC, as others have pointed out, there is no desperate need to build new stock now (unless to replace IEP), it's just that for a franchise of more than maybe 7 years there will need to be a Mk4 stock replacement strategy.
Siemens and Bombardier will also be after any new order.

MacRae13 · 25 Mar 2013

RochdalePioneers said:
I wasn't trying to reopen a debate about the pros and cons of public vs private

I know mate, I meant I didn't intend my observation on those two posts to hijack the thread.

YorkshireBear · 26 Mar 2013

Northern and tpe extended to 2016.... Putting investment further back. XC now 2020. East coast 2015 virgin 2017 just a few personal talking points. Sorry I cant ellaborate further on phone.

LNW-GW Joint · 26 Mar 2013

Full list here of re-franchising dates. https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/franchise-announcement
Or if you like it in graphical form https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rail-franchise-schedule

West Coast - April 2017
Cross Country - Nov 2019
Northern and TPE - Feb 2016

I can't see anything on franchise terms for the extensions.
With 4 years to go on West Coast and 6 on XC you would have thought there was scope for more investment rather than just marking time.

Nothing must be finalised on Thameslink rolling stock or it would have been announced today.

sprinterguy · 26 Mar 2013

LNW-GW Joint said:
I can't see anything on franchise terms for the extensions.
With 4 years to go on West Coast and 6 on XC you would have thought there was scope for more investment rather than just marking time.

What can probably be considered more likely is that the existing status quo will be maintained until the ends of the franchises as the franchisees do not have any development plans to cover the extended franchise term. "Muddling through" until the new franchise end date seems probable.

F Great Eastern · 26 Mar 2013

Bet you can't guess what our old friend Bob has to say:

Despite wasting hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money on the franchising circus, and instead of learning the lessons of the privatisation disasters on the East and West Coast main lines and across the rest of the network, the Government has this morning given the green light to a whole new wave of profiteering that will have the train companies laughing all the way to the bank.

The proposed reprivatisation of the East Coast, after the public sector rescued the service following two private failures, proves conclusively that the political class have learnt absolutely nothing when it comes to our railways.

This is a politically-inspired wrecking move designed to flog off this publicly-owned intercity route before the next election regardless of the consequences.

LNW-GW Joint · 26 Mar 2013

sprinterguy said:
What can probably be considered more likely is that the existing status quo will be maintained until the ends of the franchises as the franchisees do not have any development plans to cover the extended franchise term. "Muddling through" until the new franchise end date seems probable.

The new West Coast date of Apr 2017 goes past the expiry of the Voyager lease agreement (31 Mar 2016).
This was the XC termination date too, so there will have to be negotiations about the deployment of the Voyager fleet up to the new expiry dates.
Hopefully some new stock will get injected into the mix by then.

pemma · 26 Mar 2013

Northern and TPE are extended to Feb 2016

F Great Eastern · 26 Mar 2013

LNW-GW Joint said:
Hopefully some new stock will get injected into the mix by then.

That would require the DFT to actually complete and sign off rolling stock orders in a sensible fashion and to get them to arrive on time to address any capacity issues that may occur rather than half a decade late.

As the last few years have proved, that process works about as well as the previous franchising process did so I wouldn't get your hopes up.

charlee · 26 Mar 2013

Interesting that great western hasn't been extended. Guessing first couldn't agree terms with dft over the extension they offered, that was mentioned a few weeks back.

Class377/5 · 26 Mar 2013

LNW-GW Joint said:
Nothing must be finalised on Thameslink rolling stock or it would have been announced today.

Deals done with Government, current struggle is getting finance signed off but its a tough market currently especially with money involved.

sprinterguy · 26 Mar 2013

LNW-GW Joint said:
The new West Coast date of Apr 2017 goes past the expiry of the Voyager lease agreement (31 Mar 2016).
This was the XC termination date too, so there will have to be negotiations about the deployment of the Voyager fleet up to the new expiry dates.

That's true. It will be interesting to see what transpires out of developments with the Voyager fleet.

ainsworth74 · 26 Mar 2013

Well this is going to add more fuel to the fires that suggest TPE and Northern will be merged as their end dates are now identical rather than just having the potential to be identical. I wonder why they've extended XC for so long, presumably they consider it to not be important enough to get around to sooner?

To my mind it would make sense to re-establish an organisation like OPRAF for the period 2015 to 2020 with eleven franchises to be let at the rate of effectively one per six months it would make more sense to me to delegate the job to an outside organisation (staffed with, you know, experts) for the period.

F Great Eastern · 26 Mar 2013

What is so special about South Eastern. They have got the biggest extended term and looking at that table it seems very generous compared to the others?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

charlee said:
Interesting that great western hasn't been extended. Guessing first couldn't agree terms with dft over the extension they offered, that was mentioned a few weeks back.

I thought it was?

pemma · 26 Mar 2013

ainsworth74 said:
Well this is going to add more fuel to the fires that suggest TPE and Northern will be merged as their end dates are now identical rather than just having the potential to be identical.

I just realised the May 2016 timetable change is the date for Liverpool-Blackpool going to electric and December 2016 for the Bolton corridor so the new franchise will be able to launch proposing new/additional services to start within 12 months of the new franchise using cascaded rolling stock, which will look good from a PR view for the winning bidder.

Now Northern will continue beyond April 2014 they can also propose May and December 2014 timetable changes.

YorkshireBear · 26 Mar 2013

ainsworth74 said:
Well this is going to add more fuel to the fires that suggest TPE and Northern will be merged as their end dates are now identical rather than just having the potential to be identical. I wonder why they've extended XC for so long, presumably they consider it to not be important enough to get around to sooner?

.

I thought the XC one might be so the electric network they will operate will be decided. Ie derby bristol???
Therefore new franchise knows whats going on. To me 2019 bidders will start just after CP6 HLOS

ainsworth74 · 26 Mar 2013

YorkshireBear said:
I thought the XC one might be so the electric network they will operate will be decided. Ie derby bristol???
Therefore new franchise knows whats going on. To me 2019 bidders will start just after CP6 HLOS

Ah yeah, that would be logical in fact I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. Otherwise it just seems odd to give it such a long extension.

SprinterMan · 26 Mar 2013

charlee said:
Interesting that great western hasn't been extended. Guessing first couldn't agree terms with dft over the extension they offered, that was mentioned a few weeks back.

Yes it has, FGW will be around until July 2016 now.

Adam

LNW-GW Joint · 26 Mar 2013

Virgin Group response: http://www.virgin.com/travel/news/virgin-trains-to-run-west-coast-main-line-until-april-2017
Non-committal on new investment, as you would expect at this stage.

pemma · 26 Mar 2013

SprinterMan said:
Yes it has, FGW will be around until July 2016 now.

Adam

Ah wait now look at the terminology used "Duration of franchise extension and/ or Direct Award." That suggests to me that First may not have agreed terms and it might finish up under the control of DOR or a short term franchise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I like the BBC's reporting:

BBC News said:
The Northern franchise, due to end in April 2014, will not begin until February 2016

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21936255

142056 · 26 Mar 2013

ainsworth74 said:
Well this is going to add more fuel to the fires that suggest TPE and Northern will be merged as their end dates are now identical rather than just having the potential to be identical.

I noted that too, an interesting point. When would we be likely to see details of a merged franchise? And with the potential for Manchester-Scotland to go to ICWC could that happen with the difference in dates?

pemma · 26 Mar 2013

142056 said:
And with the potential for Manchester-Scotland to go to ICWC could that happen with the difference in dates?

Of course it can. The TPE franchise didn't include Manchester Airport to Blackpool or Manchester to Scotland services when it was originally let. While the FNW franchise lost the North Wales services mid-franchise.

LNW-GW Joint · 26 Mar 2013

The OJEC PIN here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/prior-information-notice-for-rail-franchising-from-2013 gives dates for various milestones in the new programme.
For Essex Thameside the ITT will be issued in July 2013, for TSGN in September 2013 (to the existing short-lists).
It also says DfT will be consulting "potential applicants" in advance of the OJEU for East Coast:

from DfT document above:
The InterCity East Coast (ICEC) competition is scheduled to be the first franchise in the new programme. In line with its revised procurement process,
the Department will seek to consult with potential applicants in advance of issuing the OJEU for this franchise.

Another quote on the scope of the franchising programme:

The Department for Transport (the Department) is seeking expressions of interest from organisations including any national or international company, consortium or not for profit organisation, that can demonstrate the necessary financial strength, managerial capability and experience, to be considered for the award of a franchise contract for the effective delivery of passenger services and management of train operations in England and Wales and cross border services into Scotland for which the Department is responsible.

Note that it includes Wales but excludes Scotrail and the concessions (Merseyrail and London Overground):
They've still got their work cut out to keep the new show on the road.

Franchising timetable to be outlined (was East Coast franchise to be re-let)

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