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General Election 2015 - Thoughts/Predictions/Results

How are you voting in the General Election

  • Conservative

    Votes: 25 18.0%
  • Green Party

    Votes: 15 10.8%
  • Labour

    Votes: 45 32.4%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 16 11.5%
  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 3 2.2%
  • Scottish National Party

    Votes: 9 6.5%
  • UK Independence Party

    Votes: 13 9.4%
  • Other: Right Leaning Party

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other: Left Leaning Party

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • Other: Centrist Party

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other: Other

    Votes: 2 1.4%
  • Not Voting

    Votes: 7 5.0%
  • Spoiling Ballot

    Votes: 3 2.2%

  • Total voters
    139
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Butts

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11,323
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Stirlingshire
So was Tony Blair correct in his observation that an Election Result of the type that occurred was inevitable when an Old Style Labour Party faces an Old Style Conservative Party :idea: (or that was the jist of it)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yeah if we could stop demeaning the British Public as being 'too stupid' to understand anything other than FPTP that would be great. I find it quite insulting that someone could consider the majority of their fellow Britons incapable of understanding something that isn't all that complicated.

I hate to be boring but anecdotal evidence just up the road from Redcar that other forms of Voting are easy to implement and work fine.

Clue hit the A1 and keep going :p
 
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DownSouth

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Joined
10 Dec 2011
Messages
1,545
I hate to be boring but anecdotal evidence just up the road from Redcar that other forms of Voting are easy to implement and work fine.

Clue hit the A1 and keep going :p
Of all the places in the world with superior electoral systems, that's the best destination for a study trip you could come up with?

I work at a local suburban polling place for state and federal elections, this is the worst beach in the constituency :p

Location-Gallery10.jpg


Australian+Beach+Volleyball+Championships+SW9l5CPEHFVl.jpg
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
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16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,683
Location
Redcar
Yes, I think a 'fact finding' mission to Australia is just what is required in this situation and I'm happy to volunteer myself for this important mission....
 

TheNewNo2

Member
Joined
31 Mar 2015
Messages
1,008
Location
Canary Wharf
No, it's the country and the people within it who lost. Personally, I don't have a 'lot' any more than I support West Ham, sorry, Aston Villa.<(

The first big test of the new government is coming this weekend, when West Ham play Villa!



There was a referendum on voting a couple of years back and FPTP won. You are voting for your representative at parliament in your area. Its very simple, who ever gets the most votes wins. Wonder if there would be all this clamour for electoral reform if Labour were in govt propped up by the SNP? I think not!!

FPTP is simple, but it's not "fair". If we have a constituency where there are 10 diners, 4 of want cheesecake, six of whom despise cheesecake but split evenly between trifle and ice cream, under FPTP you give everyone cheesecake, despite the fact that a majority can't stand it.



Proportional representation is horribly complicated and it doesn't work in our political system. How would I be able to stand as an independent candidate in my area with proportional representation? I couldn't. Which areas candidates get to be part of that percentage of a parties vote? If one party got 30% of the vote so was entitled to 195 MPs, which constituencies would be chosen for those 195 for that party? Its not a simple system at all!! AV was rejected by the electorate so we have FPTP, its worked for years, I believe if Labour had won you wouldn't mind the current system.

I don't think that PR is necessarily the system for the Commons, I'd go for STV at the constituency level, then replace the Lords with appointed peers in proportional style, on the grounds that they're unelected anyway so why not.


I find it amazing how Labour voters have been happy with the electoral system for years while Labour were doing well. Now that Labour have lost badly all of a sudden the voting system needs to change so Labour can do better.

You're quite correct than when someone loses under an unfair system they are more likely to complain than when they win under the same system; but just because it's possible for others to win doesn't make the system fair. That said, under a PR system Labour would do worse in terms of overall seats, but it would be at least proportionate to the vote share.

Thanks for the Australian perspective. However, over in England, large numbers of the electorate appear to have difficulty in making a simple choice of just one candidate, so asking them to also name second, third, fourth, etc. candidates would be far too demanding on their mental capabilities....:roll:

At university I was on elections committee during students' union elections, and believe me, students are almost all idiots. However they managed to use STV to say "I like X best, Y second, Z third" quite well. I don't think it's difficult to count to five, and, if you don't want to rank all the candidates, you can always just choose one!

I don't necessarily agree that STV in the Commons wouldn't work. There certainly is the risk of losing local representation, but provided the constituencies you're merging are reasonable in size I don't see how it's much of an issue. If you look at Glasgow, for example, I think people would be quite amenable to consolidating the city into one or two larger districts electing multiple MPs, because the existing constituencies are very small. The same could probably be said for other big cities like London, and even other areas such as Lanarkshire and Kent where the constituencies are geographically quite small.

I wouldn't suggest that "Scotland" becomes a Westminster Commons constituency, although I would agree that large constituencies would be appropriate for the Lords, but that larger constituencies for the Commons be created by merging, say, 2-6 existing constituencies depending on the local needs.

The difficulty I would agree definitely comes with the larger constituencies, though. Your "Ross, Skye & Lochaber" sized constituencies. To merge the Highland constituencies, for example, might see a large constituency running from Campbeltown to Caithness, which would certainly be unacceptable and you'd need to tread carefully in these areas. Even constituencies such as Moray (which is an entire council area in itself) would probably oppose a merger with a nearby constituency, and the same definitely goes for Orkney & Shetland and Na h-Eileanan an Iar. I think such a move would need to be done with sensitivity to local needs, and not a London-style "one size fits all" policy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


And this is why PR doesn't work in this country, people demeaning the electorate by saying that STV (which exists in many countries and works perfectly well) is "too complicated" for the average person to understand.

A huge part of the reason people struggle to decide is because of tactical voting. A lot of people in Scotland were saying things like "I want to vote SNP, but I also want to keep the Tories out, so perhaps I need to vote Labour", or "I want to vote Conservative, but I want to keep the SNP out so voting Labour consolidates the unionist vote". I'm sure it was true in England, too, with lots of would-be UKIP supporters choosing the Tories over UKIP to keep Labour/"the lefties" out.

It's completely undemocratic.

STV (and AV, and other electoral styles where candidates are ranked) lets you consider other possibilities without compromising on your beliefs. For example, in Scotland, a voter may want to keep the SNP out, which at the moment would mean supporting the party most likely to beat them (say, Labour) even if you'd rather have someone else (say, the Tories). Under FPTP, the voter is inclined to select Labour as a compromise and that's all the say they have. Under STV, the voter can feel confident voting first choice Tory, knowing that if/when the Tories are knocked out of the race their vote is redistributed to their second preference (whoever that may be) and so on down the line. It eliminates the need to vote tactically, and I suspect that it would radically change our electoral map.

The solution for the Commons is to have STV, but in single constituencies. That requires that the winning candidate have at least 50% of the votes at any stage. Let me give an example:



Let's say we have 50,000 voters, with first choices as follows:
3000 Green
5000 Lib Dem
11000 UKIP
15000 Conservative
16000 Labour.

Under FPTP Labour would win despite only getting 32% of the vote. But under STV they're just in the lead after the first round. Greens are eliminated first, and let's say they all had second choices of Lib Dem. That brings Lib Dems up to 8000, and no party has an overall majority. We continue.

Lib Dems are now the smallest party, so they're eliminated. Let's say all those people who at this stage were voting Lib Dem had Labour as their second choice. That brings Labour up to 24000, made up of voters whose first choice was Green, Lib Dem or Labour. This is still not an overall majority so we continue.

UKIP is now the smallest party, and so they are eliminated. However, UKIP voters think that Conservatives are the second best choice, so their votes go to the Tories. We're left with
Labour 24000
Conservative 26000
Conservatives win!

STV makes for fairer elections because you will always end up with a winner whom at least half the electorate find somewhat palatable. It means that people can vote for the party they actually want, eg the Greens or UKIP, despite knowing that they won't win the constituency, because their second, third, (etc) choice votes are important too. Perhaps more importantly it means that you can't just rely on your "base" to win. In my example above, if Labour had got just 11% of the UKIP voters to choose Labour as second choice instead of Tories, Labour would have won. You need to appeal to a wider audience, because if you're getting lots of second choice votes you stand a good chance of winning.
 

TheKnightWho

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3,184
Location
Oxford
The solution for the Commons is to have STV, but in single constituencies. That requires that the winning candidate have at least 50% of the votes at any stage. Let me give an example:



Let's say we have 50,000 voters, with first choices as follows:
3000 Green
5000 Lib Dem
11000 UKIP
15000 Conservative
16000 Labour.

Under FPTP Labour would win despite only getting 32% of the vote. But under STV they're just in the lead after the first round. Greens are eliminated first, and let's say they all had second choices of Lib Dem. That brings Lib Dems up to 8000, and no party has an overall majority. We continue.

Lib Dems are now the smallest party, so they're eliminated. Let's say all those people who at this stage were voting Lib Dem had Labour as their second choice. That brings Labour up to 24000, made up of voters whose first choice was Green, Lib Dem or Labour. This is still not an overall majority so we continue.

UKIP is now the smallest party, and so they are eliminated. However, UKIP voters think that Conservatives are the second best choice, so their votes go to the Tories. We're left with
Labour 24000
Conservative 26000
Conservatives win!

STV makes for fairer elections because you will always end up with a winner whom at least half the electorate find somewhat palatable. It means that people can vote for the party they actually want, eg the Greens or UKIP, despite knowing that they won't win the constituency, because their second, third, (etc) choice votes are important too. Perhaps more importantly it means that you can't just rely on your "base" to win. In my example above, if Labour had got just 11% of the UKIP voters to choose Labour as second choice instead of Tories, Labour would have won. You need to appeal to a wider audience, because if you're getting lots of second choice votes you stand a good chance of winning.

That is just AV ;)
 

Wyvern

Established Member
Joined
27 Oct 2009
Messages
1,573
Regarding electoral systems, I dont claim to be an expert, but I'm a fan of this fellow;

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/fair-votes-now.html

Moreover he doesnt just whinge , he offers things people can do.

(The rest of his massive site is worthing loking through too)

The campaign for fair votes

Let me begin this article by dispelling the predictable Tory accusation that I'm only complaining about the voting system now because I'm being a "sore loser". This claim is very easy to dismiss on the grounds that the biggest gains under a fair voting system would be for a party that I strongly oppose (UKIP which got just one seat in return for 3,881,129 votes) and the biggest losers under a fairer redistribution of the votes would be a party that just won a landslide victory with an anti-austerity campaign (the SNP got an incredible 56 seats in return for 1,454,436 votes).

Winners and losers

If the votes of the two most adversely affected parties (UKIP and the Green Party) are combined, they picked up over 5 million votes in 2015 (16.4% of the total) but got only two seats (0.3% of the total). Anyone who tries to claim that this is a fair representation of the wishes of the public must be utterly delusional.

The Liberal Democrats are another party that fare badly under our unfair voting system. In 2010 they took 23% of the vote but ended up with just 8.7% of the seats. In 2015 they picked up 2,415,888 votes (7.9%) but won only 8 seats (1.2%).

To put this into perspective, our shockingly disproportionate system rewarded the Tory party with one MP for every 34,348 votes cast in their favour, the Lib-Dems got one MP for every 301,986 votes in their favour, the Green Party got just one MP in return for well over one million votes and UKIP got just one MP in return for almost four million votes!

Who on earth would even try to defend a voting system that requires one party to achieve 113 times as many votes per MP as another party? (other than a supporter of the party that benefits of course).

Until the incredible rise of the SNP in Scotland in 2015, the two main beneficiaries of the outdated and hugely unrepresentative Westminster voting system were the Tory party and the Labour Party who have taken turns at running the government for the last 100+ years, which is an answer in itself to the question of why this ridiculously outdated and unrepresentative system has never been modernised.

The UK is one of the only countries in the world to use such an old fashioned and unrepresentative voting system. Almost every other democracy on Earth uses one form of proportional representation or another. The UK stands alone as the the only major economy to be ruled by such an outdated and unrepresentative system.

Majority governments

Defenders of our hopelessly old fashioned and unrepresentative system will try to claim that it is a good thing because it promotes single party governments, however (even if we accept the faulty premise that single party rule is by definition a good thing), if this is achieved at the expense of disenfranchising literally millions of voters, then it's not a good tradeoff at all.

If we look at the last two majority governments (Blair in 2005 & Cameron in 2015) we find that our unfair and apathy inducing system elevates Prime Ministers to absolute power with shockingly low levels of public mandate. In 2005 Tony Blair was handed a comfortable majority (54.6% of the seats) with the backing of just 21.6% of the eligible vote. In 2015 David Cameron was handed a majority government with the support of just 24.4% of the eligible vote. The number of votes won by both of these Prime Ministers was massively outweighed by the huge numbers of people so disillusioned with the system that they didn't even vote (38.6% in 2005, 33.9% in 2015).

What kind of person defends a system that allows one political party to take significantly more than half of the seats in parliament when they couldn't even convince a quarter of the public to vote for them?

Local connections

One of the other commonly posited arguments against reforming our outdated voting system is that a more proportional system would "break" the local connection between politicians and their constituents.

This argument has some merit because accountability to one's constituents is a vital part of any functioning democracy. However it is still a poor argument because it is easy to conceive a proportional electoral system which would maintain, if not dramatically improve the relationship between politicians and their local constituents.

The solution I prefer is the introduction of larger multi-member constituencies. Let's say that the current 650 constituencies are combined into around 120 constituencies of around six times the size, but returning six MPs each.

Under this system the constituent would no longer be limited to just one MP, who in all probability they didn't even vote for (only a tiny percentage of constituencies have ever returned a candidate with more than 50% of the eligible vote). The constituent would have the choice to contact any number of the six local MPs representing various political parties. Thus if one of your local MPs fails or refuses to deal with your issue adequately, you can approach an MP from another party and see if their response is any better.

Of course the precise details of how a system like this would operate would need to be ironed out, but I challenge anyone to argue that being limited to just one MP (representing a party that you quite possibly hate) is a more engaging political system than one in which you can "shop around" and find the local MP who best responds to your needs.

If any Tory does try to argue against a system that provides the electorate with far more choice, and provides the politicians with much greater incentives to meet the needs of their constituents (competition), then there is a question you can really stump them with: Why does the Tory party actively promote "choice" and "competition" within the national health system as desirable objectives, but favour a political system that severely restricts voter choice and eliminates competition between MPs entirely?

The answer is obvious. They prefer the choice-restricting, uncompetitive, apathy inducing, desperately unrepresentative system we have now because it is rigged in favour of their party. They like their "safe seats" where their politicians can ride the political gravy train safe in the knowledge that they are completely insulated from any kind of direct competition from rival MPs until they retire and get replaced by another career politician from the same party. They obviously won't be able to admit as much, but it might be fun watching their bizarre mental contortions as they try to think up some other excuse.

Party Lists

Another common argument against proportional representation is the objection to the idea of party lists (where the political party gets to decide which candidates are the first to get selected when the votes are shared out between the parties). This is a strong argument because the whole idea of party lists is utterly abhorrent. The electorate should get to decide which candidates are best, not have the candidates pre-selected for them by the political parties.

There is a solution to this problem because it is easy to conceive a proportional system that uses no party lists whatever.

If we return to the idea of the six member constituency, it is entirely possible for the parties to include several names on the ballot paper, and leave it up to the electorate to decide which of them to support. The seats would then be distributed fairly, but to the individual MPs from each party that got the most votes, not to the MPs from the top of the party list.

The beauty of such a system would be that supporters of a particular political party would be able to choose the best candidate to suit their needs. Perhaps they might choose the candidate who lives nearest to their neighbourhood; perhaps the candidate who is the most responsive to their inquiries; perhaps the candidate who was a trusted local MP under the old system; or perhaps the candidate from a particular wing of the party.

If we imagine that the voter is a Tory supporter, they could choose to support a candidate from the libertarian wing of the party (someone like David Davis or Steve Baker), or maybe they would prefer to vote for someone from the authoritarian-right of the party (someone like Theresa May or Iain Duncan Smith)?

Under this kind of system the political parties would become much more responsive to the political orientation of their supporters. If lots of libertarian Tories get elected, the party would be under pressure to become a much greater champion of individual freedom, and if lots of left-wing Labour candidates got elected, perhaps the party might start moving back towards championing social democracy instead of offering watered-down Thatcherism.

Minor Parties

One problem that would affect the six member constituency system is that smaller parties would still struggle to return any MPs. If for example the TUSC or the Pirate Party ended up getting 1% of the vote nationwide, it's unlikely they'd break the threshold in any one constituency, but a fair system would demand that they should get something like 1% of the MPs.

It is possible to resolve this problem too without resorting to party lists. A small number of extra seats could be set aside to make sure the distribution of seats to votes is more or less fair. The extra seats would then be distributed to the the most popular candidates representing these smaller parties, so if the TUSC candidate in Liverpool got 6% of the vote, but just missed out on the last of the six seats, they would be in contention for one of the additional seats. This means they would still represent the constituency of Liverpool (but as an additional member), and they would still have been selected by the public as the best that party has to offer - not as the result of a party list.

A cross party issue

The campaign for fairer votes isn't a left-right political issue, it's a matter of fairness. To illustrate the point that it's not a tribalist political issue, the parties that support the campaign for fair votes include UKIP (hard-right, anti-EU), The Liberal Democrats (centre-right, pro-EU), Plaid Cymru (centre-left, Welsh nationalist), The SNP (centre-left, Scottish nationalist), The Green Party (centre-left, EU reformists) and the TUSC (hard-left, anti-EU).

If all of these divergent parties agree that the current voting system is totally unfair, leaving only the two parties that have historically benefited from it (Labour and the Tories) standing in opposition to fair votes, then it's obvious that it's not a tribalistic political issue, it's a matter of political freedom: The freedom to have our votes actually count for something, rather than being almost always discarded unless we chose to vote for Labour or the Tories (who bagged 86.5% of the seats between them in 2015 after convincing only 44.5% of the electorate to actually vote for them).

What can we do about it?

History shows us that powerful elites do not just hand the public greater freedoms of their own accord. These freedoms have to be fought for and demanded until the establishment is forced to concede them.

A fairer, more representative voting system is indisputably a freedom. A fairer voting system would free millions of people from the tyranny of living in a "safe seat" where their votes simply don't matter because one candidate is guaranteed to win every time until they retire to be replaced by another career politician from the same political party.

If we want a fairer system we have to demand it and not give up until we get it.

You can help to raise awareness of the fight for fairer votes in many ways.
You can talk to your friends and work colleagues about it.
You can follow the work of the Electoral Reform Society (Website, Facebook, Twitter)

You can Tweet about fairer votes using the hashtag #FairVotesNow

You can become an active member of a political party that is demanding a fairer voting system

You can share this article in order to raise awareness of the campaign for fairer votes by copying and pasting this link ( http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2015/05/fair-votes-now.html )
You can write to your elected politicians about it using this link (feel free to link to or quote from this article, I don't give a stuff about copyright)
You can share some of my Fair Votes Now images that can be found here.
 

TheKnightWho

Established Member
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17 Oct 2012
Messages
3,184
Location
Oxford
Interesting, the NUS call it STV. I guess there are various methods for these things, all with slight different terminology.

STV necessarily has to have more than 1 MP in each constituency to be distinguishable from AV. I imagine if we did implement STV that places like the Highlands and Islands and other quite culturally/geographically distinct constituencies with low populations would have AV.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Regarding electoral reform - had we had a PR system, we would be facing a Conservative-UKIP-DUP coalition holding 50.06% of the vote. This is of course assuming the same election numbers.

As that would probably be exactly 50% of MPs and so not a majority, you can add in the UUP to get 50.44% of the vote being right or centre-right in a Conservative-UKIP-DUP-UUP coalition.
 

Groningen

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2015
Messages
2,866
So 35 % voted for the Tories and have the absolute majority. Perfect; shows how democracy is working well. UKIP had nearly 4 million votes and end up with 1 seat. Scotland; poor Scotland; i will not repeat myself about the SNP.
 

deltic

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2010
Messages
3,224
So was Tony Blair correct in his observation that an Election Result of the type that occurred was inevitable when an Old Style Labour Party faces an Old Style Conservative Party :idea: (or that was the jist of it)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I hate to be boring but anecdotal evidence just up the road from Redcar that other forms of Voting are easy to implement and work fine.

Clue hit the A1 and keep going :p

you dont have to go anywhere - a form of PR was applied in the European elections across Great Britain, PR is also used widely elsewhere in the UK, London assembly and Mayoral elections, in Northern Ireland and for Welsh and Scottish devolved elections - no-one seems to have too much problems with understanding them.
 

TheKnightWho

Established Member
Joined
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Messages
3,184
Location
Oxford
you dont have to go anywhere - a form of PR was applied in the European elections across Great Britain, PR is also used widely elsewhere in the UK, London assembly and Mayoral elections, in Northern Ireland and for Welsh and Scottish devolved elections - no-one seems to have too much problems with understanding them.

Rather amusing when people talk about the EU being undemocratic, really ;)
 

Groningen

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2015
Messages
2,866
Was it not so that Blair was kept out of everything; fearing he was a voteloser instead of a votewinner.
 

radamfi

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Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
So 35 % voted for the Tories and have the absolute majority. Perfect; shows how democracy is working well. UKIP had nearly 4 million votes and end up with 1 seat. Scotland; poor Scotland; i will not repeat myself about the SNP.

I presume you are Dutch, given your username? Are many people in the Netherlands aware of the voting system we have in the UK? You guys must think we are crazy or stupid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
you dont have to go anywhere - a form of PR was applied in the European elections across Great Britain, PR is also used widely elsewhere in the UK, London assembly and Mayoral elections, in Northern Ireland and for Welsh and Scottish devolved elections - no-one seems to have too much problems with understanding them.

Precisely. If you object to PR for Westminster, then you must insist that those elections above should be converted to FPTP.
 
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Oswyntail

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23 May 2009
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4,183
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Yorkshire
"Our lot" will already be reporting more deaths from disabled people. "Your lot" will carry on not caring.....
What I have never seen is a comparison between the number of such events under the previous governments and the current one. People die and commit suicide, always have always will, and for a multitude of reasons, most of which are not the final stimulus. I suspect what we have seen is an increase in reporting rather than the events themselves. But without the statistics no one can say either way. That won't stop people, though.
"Your lot" will carry on not caring.....
That is unworthy of one of the more thoughtful posters. It is an oft-repeated propaganda lie, which brings to mind "won't somebody think of the children" in its appeal to irrationality.
 

DarloRich

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12 Oct 2010
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Location
Fenny Stratford
That is unworthy of one of the more thoughtful posters. It is an oft-repeated propaganda lie, which brings to mind "won't somebody think of the children" in its appeal to irrationality.

But Tories simply dont care, or at least care enough, about the human impact of their polices or the implementation of those polices.

Anyway they can do what they like now..................
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The will be no electoral reform other than constituency boundary changes
 

radamfi

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Messages
9,267
Another advantage of PR is that there would probably be more parties to choose from. At present, any politician with aspirations of government has to join one of the main parties, which leads to large divergence of views within them. Under PR, there would be freedom for the current main parties to split up into more targeted groupings. For example, separate parties for 'One Nation' Conservatives, Thatcherites, Socialist Labour and New Labour.
 

me123

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9 Jul 2007
Messages
8,510
Another advantage of PR is that there would probably be more parties to choose from. At present, any politician with aspirations of government has to join one of the main parties, which leads to large divergence of views within them. Under PR, there would be freedom for the current main parties to split up into more targeted groupings. For example, separate parties for 'One Nation' Conservatives, Thatcherites, Socialist Labour and New Labour.

It's already kind of happened in Scotland. Since the launch of the Scottish Parliament (elected using a PR system), we've elected people from across the political spectrum and have four large "main" parties - Labour, Conservatives, SNP and Lib Dems (although their recent results in Scotland have been poor). We also have the Greens, and have had the Scottish Socialists (although they seem to have imploded, and most recently their leader urged Yes voters to congregate around the SNP).

Had we not had the Scottish Parliament, we'd probably have been a one-party state today - Labour through and through*. The Tories would have been an irrelevance. However, from 1999, we've elected parties and politicians from across the political spectrum using a PR system and, whilst as of late it's been one party getting the most favour from the electorate, we still have a four-party system in Holyrood (although I suspect the Lib Dems will become even more irrelevant next year). Who'd have thought we'd ever see the SNP as a party of government? And who'd have thought that the Conservatives would be such a strong opposition force in the Scottish Parliament? Party politics aside, the diversity in Scottish politics probably wouldn't have happened without a PR system in the Scottish Parliament. This is because FPTP trends towards a two-party state, which is clearly demonstrated from the results we saw on Thursday.

*Now, I'm sure quite a lot of people look at the electoral map and will say that we are now a one party state, and as a proud supporter of the SNP I'm happy to see a sea of yellow, but it's not democratically fair that a party with 50% of the vote gains 56/59 seats. I suspect that without PR and the Scottish Parliament, Labour would have an overwhelming majority of the support purely as an anti-Tory protest.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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The Conservative Party won this last election under the FPTP system and I wonder as to the political allegiances of those upon this thread whose clamour the loudest for PR to be effected. Not many Conservative Party supporters amongst them I am sure.

You never will have see me making enthusiastic support postings for the introduction of PR upon this or any other website. At the age of 70, I have experienced far more General Elections than many of the contributors to this thread.
 

St Rollox

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2 Jun 2013
Messages
650
Will be interesting at next year's Scottish elections to see if Ukip can get anybody elected.
They got 140,000 votes in Scotland at the Euro elections.
A decade back 132,000 votes got six Scottish Socialists elected using AV.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Conservative Party won this last election under the FPTP system and I wonder as to the political allegiances of those upon this thread whose clamour the loudest for PR to be effected. Not many Conservative Party supporters amongst them I am sure.

You never will have see me making enthusiastic support postings for the introduction of PR upon this or any other website. At the age of 70, I have experienced far more General Elections than many of the contributors to this thread.

Don't remember anybody on the Right supporting PR until Ukip came along.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Don't remember anybody on the Right supporting PR until Ukip came along.

UKIP fielded candidates against the Conservatives in a large number of constituencies and their one and only success was in a constituency where a former Conservative candidate with a very strong personal following was elected. Is it any wonder that they too now espouse PR?
 

TheKnightWho

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UKIP fielded candidates against the Conservatives in a large number of constituencies and their one and only success was in a constituency where a former Conservative candidate with a very strong personal following was elected. Is it any wonder that they too now espouse PR?

Just because there's a vested interest doesn't mean you can dismiss it. FPTP is markedly not a good system.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Just because there's a vested interest doesn't mean you can dismiss it. FPTP is markedly not a good system.

You may very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment (upon your sincerely held personal views), save to say that my particular colours of support are well and truly nailed to the mast of the good ship FPTP.

I have no need to "dismiss it" as 2015 has now arrived with FPTP still very much alive and well...and long may it continue to do so.
 

TheKnightWho

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You may very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment (upon your sincerely held personal views), save to say that my particular colours of support are well and truly nailed to the mast of the good ship FPTP.

I have no need to "dismiss it" as 2015 has now arrived with FPTP still very much alive and well...and long may it continue to do so.

Dismiss reform. Not FPTP.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Just to slightly change the subject - does anyone know of any website that gives the full constituency election results (preferably for 2010 and 2015) in a machine-readable format? Something like XML?

(It's for my own personal interest btw)
 

yorksrob

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I have no need to "dismiss it" as 2015 has now arrived with FPTP still very much alive and well...and long may it continue to do so.

Perhaps that should be renamed "The good ship gerrymander", for that is what FPTP effectively amounts to.
 

TheKnightWho

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Just to slightly change the subject - does anyone know of any website that gives the full constituency election results (preferably for 2010 and 2015) in a machine-readable format? Something like XML?

(It's for my own personal interest btw)

Try the Wikipedia citations?
 

Dave1987

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In an election I vote for which person will best stand up for my area in the commons. It has to be someone local who knows and cares about the area. With the PR system you are not voting for someone to represent your constituentcy, you are merely voting for a party. The MPs allocated to a particular party may mean the MP for your area may be from a party that a very small portion of the electorate voted for. I think PR goes completely away from localism and makes it even harder for independent candidates to possibly win a seat.
 
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ainsworth74

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Yes that is true but, and I'm not sure how many times this has to be said, it is possible to have elements of PR but keep local representatives which were chosen locally.
 
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