Chiltern to remove on-board catering..

deltic · 19 Dec 2016

Starmill said:
Chiltern only offer catering on a small number of services where I would expect them to sell a lot. And the only time I have ever been on a Turbostar with catering the trolley has been doing a good trade.

I travel between London and Birmingham around 1/2 times a month by Chiltern and rarely see more than a dozen people buy from Mainline buffet and the trolley service is not used that much on the turbos I travel on either.

Travelling by Virgin also dont see their shop used that much either. As others have said far greater choice at stations and limited offer on board means train catering is a dying service.

What happened to Virgin's trial of allowing you to order Pizzas and picking them up on route?

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sidmouth · 19 Dec 2016

edwin_m said:
As well as price, I suggest the main reasons for the decline in on-board catering is availability.

And reliability. I have too many times assumed catering would appear as advertised, and then gone hungry when it has failed to appear. Most notably, buying first class tickets for the expected all inclusive fare PBO e.g. to the north (Edinburgh, once hoped for a cooked breakfast but got the ubiquitous sandwich) and south (Kings Cross, got nothing at all) that now I travel second class and stock up before boarding. I have learnt my lesson as I am sure other travellers have, when catering has failed to appear as expected.

chubs · 19 Dec 2016

Quality at stations has improved massively over the last 10 years from the bad days of Upper Crust or Burger King, most stations have a lot of choice of fresh tasty food and there's often a mini supermarket branch near the station too.

Why would you want to pay over the odds for a warm can of coke, a warm can of beer, a really bad coffee or tea or a mass produced sandwich?

Plus as stated consumer habits and retail is changing a lot.

Bletchleyite · 19 Dec 2016

This is a very good point, I just had a very nice burrito on a LM from New St. And I have coffee

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edwin_m · 19 Dec 2016

Neil Williams said:
The key difference is staff - the staff cost is zero as you already have to have them.

True - can't see the unions accepting the conductor pushing the trolley between other duties!

Bletchleyite · 19 Dec 2016

edwin_m said:
True - can't see the unions accepting the condutor pushing the trolley between other duties!

Yes, that would be difficult to get through, I would imagine!

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marks87 · 19 Dec 2016

Neil Williams said:
Yes, that would be difficult to get through, I would imagine!

A narrower trolley might help.

Bishopstone · 19 Dec 2016

If rail catering staff are employed directly by the TOC, as opposed to the likes of Rail Gourmet, are they enrolled in the railway's defined benefit pension scheme?

If so - whilst good for the individuals concerned - it's another cost that has to be accounted for.

Bletchleyite · 19 Dec 2016

marks87 said:
A narrower trolley might help.

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trainophile · 19 Dec 2016

nickdavies said:
No it isn't, VAT has long been charged on takeaway food.

So why is there a surcharge at Greggs if you want to sit in and eat your pasty?

The prices in on-station shops shocks me, and not just the chains dedicated to rail catering - WH Smith only had bottled water at £1.99 when I needed one, so I walked 100 yards up the road at Chester and bought a 500ml bottle from a convenience store for 39p!

AlterEgo · 19 Dec 2016

trainophile said:
So why is there a surcharge at Greggs if you want to sit in and eat your pasty?

The prices in on-station shops shocks me, and not just the chains dedicated to rail catering - WH Smith only had bottled water at £1.99 when I needed one, so I walked 100 yards up the road at Chester and bought a 500ml bottle from a convenience store for 39p!

If the food is take away you do not have to charge VAT unless the food you are serving attracts VAT anyway, e.g. is standard rated, or if it is hot.

Darandio · 19 Dec 2016

trainophile said:
So why is there a surcharge at Greggs if you want to sit in and eat your pasty?

From Greggs FAQ.......

We have to charge VAT if you wish to ‘eat in’ which we then pass over to HMRC. We also charge a little extra in our café shops as we provide additional services. We’ll always let you know by showing both the eat in and takeaway prices on our shelf tickets.

and....

If the sausage rolls and pasties were kept hot after they had been baked, then they would be subject to VAT and the customer would have to be charged a higher price, in the same way that we charge VAT on our hot sandwiches which are kept in a heated cabinet and are subject to VAT.

168lover · 19 Dec 2016

Very interesting move but have seen it coming for a while with each and every new timetable being released with less and less 'Mainline' services being operated without Catering. I will be interested to see what will happen to the 'Mainline Silver' services, will Chiltern try and use the catering areas as places for more seats? I used to travel on the peak time Risborough-Marylebone Plugged Door Loco-hauled extra which didn't have any catering provision(or any Business Zone Restrictions :lol:

) and the catering space did seem like a waste of space in which more passengers could stand. Interesting times...

trainophile · 19 Dec 2016

Thanks Darandio, but that seems to relate to George Osborne's "pasty tax" that was eventually scrapped I thought. Or maybe I'm getting confused

.

Anyway apologies for the off topic wanderings :oops:

.

NeilWatson · 19 Dec 2016

Aircraft, ships, trains and other means of transport

If you make a separate supply of catering on board an aircraft, ship, train or other means of transport, it is standard-rated unless it is provided for consumption during a journey from the UK to another EU Member State or on a journey to a country outside the EU.

http://https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-7091-catering-and-take-away-food/vat-notice-7091-catering-and-take-away-food

daikilo · 19 Dec 2016

and if I recall coorectly, shelf life for hot food is measured in minutes.

If the example given for a small bottle of water is factual then that was exploitation. I understand it, but I do not in any way condone it.

Elecman · 19 Dec 2016

NeilWatson said:
Aircraft, ships, trains and other means of transport

If you make a separate supply of catering on board an aircraft, ship, train or other means of transport, it is standard-rated unless it is provided for consumption during a journey from the UK to another EU Member State or on a journey to a country outside the EU.

http://https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-7091-catering-and-take-away-food/vat-notice-7091-catering-and-take-away-food

That will mean zero vat when Sturgeon finally takes Scotland independent :lol:

All Line Rover · 20 Dec 2016

Neil Williams said:
I don't see why First Class can't still work without catering, though, it's still more comfortable.

True, but inclusive catering is an attractive part of the overall package. During peak hours, queues can be long at stations (e.g. the main M&S at Euston gets extremely busy, and the only catering outlet of substance at Crewe - Upper Crust - has had a queue of up to 15 people on the rare occasion I have visited on early weekday mornings), and so the ability to eat on the train - the train one intended to catch - without having to worry about buying food on departure, or on arrival, is beneficial.

EMT's paid-for offer is fine, but if this isn't profitable enough and inclusive catering attracts more customers (as seems to be the case with VTWC and VTEC, formerly EC), that is what should be offered.

All Line Rover · 20 Dec 2016

Elecman said:
That will mean zero vat when Sturgeon finally takes Scotland independent

Will that mean passengers to Preston / Carlisle / York / Newcastle will be charged more than passengers to Glasgow / Edinburgh?

Greenback · 20 Dec 2016

Clip said:
Easyjet can do that because they don't have much competition on pricing as airport outlets like Smiths are just as pricey and you cant exactly take your pint from spoons on the plane can you?

Those are good points. I also feel that on a flight passengers are likely to be on the plane for at least an hour. On a train many journeys will be less than that, and if others ar elike me the boredom of a flight will mean that a drink or snack will help pass the time and something to look forward to.

Robertj21a said:
I can't recall the last time I bought anything on board a train. Surely, there's little need unless you're travelling for, say, 3 hours or more ?

Quite. It takes over 4 hours from Llanelli to Manchester, which makes a hot drink very welcome! But on Manchester to Leeds I wouldn't bother.

al78 said:
It is not always about need, it is about want as well. There are occasions when travelling from London to Manchester that I feel like a hot drink and a muffin. I am travelling from Horsham to Aviemore next summer, it would be more convenient if I don't have to take a full days food supply just for the journey.

If we only ever had things that were essential, we would have little in life other than food, water, oxygen and shelter.

Fair comment. I;m sure that there are some who want to buy a drink or snack on board during shorter journeys, too, but I'm not one of them.

All Line Rover said:
True, but inclusive catering is an attractive part of the overall package. During peak hours, queues can be long at stations (e.g. the main M&S at Euston gets extremely busy, and the only catering outlet of substance at Crewe - Upper Crust - has had a queue of up to 15 people on the rare occasion I have visited on early weekday mornings), and so the ability to eat on the train - the train one intended to catch - without having to worry about buying food on departure, or on arrival, is beneficial.

EMT's paid-for offer is fine, but if this isn't profitable enough and inclusive catering attracts more customers (as seems to be the case with VTWC and VTEC, formerly EC), that is what should be offered.

I'm not a fan of inclusive food and drink. I feel that it's not worth the fare being asked in most cases. When I've had it I haven't been very impressed with the quality and I feel like I'm being forced to pay for something I don't really want. I reckon it has more of an effect of putting me off first class travel than attracting me to it.

Naturally, though, it doesn't really matter what I think. If it does attract enough custom to justify it, then it's quite right to continue to offer such a product.

Essexman · 20 Dec 2016

I'd be happy to lose catering on shorter runs in favour of being able to get a proper hot meal on long runs. It doesn't have to be fine Pullman dining (although that's very nice when available) but something like the German ICE trains which (nearly?) all offer a bistro or restaurant with as range of reasonably priced meals or snacks would be ideal. Obviously it won't happen here as the trend is the other way.

Greenback · 20 Dec 2016

I do agree with you, Essexman. It would be nice to be able to purchase a decent hot meal on more long distance trains. It would often save me from eating out, cooking or shopping when I get to my destination.

tony_mac · 20 Dec 2016

trainophile said:
Thanks Darandio, but that seems to relate to George Osborne's "pasty tax" that was eventually scrapped I thought.

No, the "pasty tax" would have applied to all food that was sold above ambient temperature.
Greggs, etc., sell food that is freshly baked and happens to be in the process of cooling down - that's why it doesn't count as 'hot food' (has been like that for quite a few years).

These days, I almost always use the on-train catering if there is any.
It's just part of the experience / advantage of travelling by train. Halfway through my journey I can have a 'break' and drink / eat at my seat in peace, with no travelling time wasted. Take that away, and the car option gets a bit more attractive in comparison. (I typically also break my car journeys for a drink along the way - not because I need to, but because it makes it more pleasant).

Virgin West Coast is pretty reliable, and not madly overpriced. E.g., A cappucino and panini for £4.50 is certainly better than a motorway service station. (Alas, they microwave the panino, but some compromises need to be made!)

paul1609 · 20 Dec 2016

All Line Rover said:
Will that mean passengers to Preston / Carlisle / York / Newcastle will be charged more than passengers to Glasgow / Edinburgh?

No duty free will be available at Gretna Green International where all passengers will detrain for Immigration checks.
The East Coast main line north of Berwick will have closed due to the collapse of the Scottish Economy and a new terminal built south of the Tweed to save on the maintenance of the viaduct.

Tetchytyke · 20 Dec 2016

trainophile said:
So why is there a surcharge at Greggs if you want to sit in and eat your pasty?

Daft as it sounds, pasties are one of the most technical bits of the VAT legislation. If they are served to be consumed on the premises then they are VAT chargeable. If they are served hot from the oven to be consumed off the premises and they are deliberately kept hot, then they are VAT chargeable. If they are served hot from the oven to be consumed off the premises but no effort is made to keep them hot, then they are not VAT chargeable.

Basically, if Greggs put heating elements in their display counter then they would have to charge VAT, which is why they no longer put heating elements in their display counter.

The "pasty tax" was an attempt to close this loophole by saying anything that is cooked is VAT chargeable.

Cold sandwiches are only VAT chargeable if you consume them on the premises, and being sold on the train counts as consuming on the premises, but hot sandwiches (e.g. toasties, pannini) are VAT chargeable regardless of where they are consumed.

Tetchytyke · 20 Dec 2016

Greenback said:
I also feel that on a flight passengers are likely to be on the plane for at least an hour. On a train many journeys will be less than that, and if others ar elike me the boredom of a flight will mean that a drink or snack will help pass the time and something to look forward to.

Getting back to Chiltern, most of their passengers will be on the train for similar periods of time. It's 50 minutes from Bicester to London, 70 minutes from Oxford to London, 120 minutes from Birmingham to London. Newcastle to London is 45 minutes in the air on BA and I always had time for my (sadly now "enhanced") G&T; it's the same in the air Newcastle to Dublin on Ryanair and I always have time for one of their very good quality coffees.

I think the real issue is that trolley catering services are not reliable. Being served at-seat is convenient, but having to wait for it is not. I regularly travel Newcastle-Leeds on XC and often either don't see the trolley at all or see it arrive ten minutes before I'm due to get off. So even though I'd have bought a tea an hour ago, I don't buy one now. It's the same on VTEC with their trolley, the number of times it's come through at Peterborough on a Newcastle-London journey is daft, but at least they have the buffet counter option. This is where serving on a plane is significantly easier: on most short-haul flights there's at most 15 rows of people to serve from one trolley, so it's easy to get to everyone fairly quickly.

Greenback · 20 Dec 2016

Arctic Troll said:
Getting back to Chiltern, most of their passengers will be on the train for similar periods of time. It's 50 minutes from Bicester to London, 70 minutes from Oxford to London, 120 minutes from Birmingham to London. Newcastle to London is 45 minutes in the air on BA and I always had time for my (sadly now "enhanced") G&T; it's the same in the air Newcastle to Dublin on Ryanair and I always have time for one of their very good quality coffees.

There are always going to be exceptions, but most flights ill involve passengers sitting for longer than an hour on the aircraft when you include taxiing, waiting and just sitting around waiting for clearance. I took a flight that was just over an hour in the air, but my total time on the aircraft was around 90 mins. I had great fun watching the the ground operations through the window for 25 minutes before we took off, but I still felt no need toe at or drink anything.

You do make sense about the journey times between London and Birmingham. Though unlike aircraft, trains will have lots of intermediate stops which only serve to cloud the issue.

Arctic Troll said:
I think the real issue is that trolley catering services are not reliable. Being served at-seat is convenient, but having to wait for it is not. I regularly travel Newcastle-Leeds on XC and often either don't see the trolley at all or see it arrive ten minutes before I'm due to get off. So even though I'd have bought a tea an hour ago, I don't buy one now. It's the same on VTEC with their trolley, the number of times it's come through at Peterborough on a Newcastle-London journey is daft, but at least they have the buffet counter option. This is where serving on a plane is significantly easier: on most short-haul flights there's at most 15 rows of people to serve from one trolley, so it's easy to get to everyone fairly quickly.

I am in no doubt that these issues can impact on the amount of sales from a trolley. I am sure I'm not alone in preferring the option to get up and go to get a drink whenever I want one, rather than at the time the trolley makes an appearance. On some journeys the train is so crowded that a trolley can't get through at all. Someone who wanted to purchase a drink or some food and was unable to is unlikely to take a chance on a trolley the next time they travel.

Again, this is a different scenario to what happens on an aircraft, and it can't help the business case. Neither can the fact that the cabin crew have to be there anyway, unlike on a train where the trolley person is an additional member of staff to the train crew that are needed to operate the train.

Bletchleyite · 20 Dec 2016

Greenback said:
There are always going to be exceptions, but most flights ill involve passengers sitting for longer than an hour on the aircraft when you include taxiing, waiting and just sitting around waiting for clearance. I took a flight that was just over an hour in the air, but my total time on the aircraft was around 90 mins. I had great fun watching the the ground operations through the window for 25 minutes before we took off, but I still felt no need toe at or drink anything.

I think there are two lines on this - those who eat/drink because they need it and those who find it a pleasant part of the travel experience.

Clearly, I don't *need* a coffee on an hour's flight, but I find it is a pleasant thing to have that enhances the experience.

Neither can the fact that the cabin crew have to be there anyway, unlike on a train where the trolley person is an additional member of staff to the train crew that are needed to operate the train.

This is absolutely key to the differing economics and reliability of rail vs. airline catering. It's uneconomic enough to provide an extra person to trolley-push, let alone a spare one in every messroom. But if you don't have spare cabin crew, you're not going anywhere far too often.

Greenback · 20 Dec 2016

Neil Williams said:
I think there are two lines on this - those who eat/drink because they need it and those who find it a pleasant part of the travel experience.

Clearly, I don't *need* a coffee on an hour's flight, but I find it is a pleasant thing to have that enhances the experience.

My point is that there will be more people who want rather than need a drink or snack on a flight. There are a few reasons for that. One of them is the aircraft environment itself in my view, then there's also the limited views compared to a train, the lack of intermediate calling points.

Basically I believe that because a flight is intrinsically less of a pleasant experience than travelling by train (again I accept that there will be exceptions) this is bound to contribute to making comparisons between the likes of Chiltern and Easyjet, or Ryanair and ATW very difficult indeed.

Neil Williams said:
This is absolutely key to the differing economics and reliability of rail vs. airline catering. It's uneconomic enough to provide an extra person to trolley-push, let alone a spare one in every messroom. But if you don't have spare cabin crew, you're not going anywhere far too often.

I agree. I don't think anyone should forget that the non appearance of an advertised catering service, either due to overcrowding or due to the non availability of a member of staff, is sure to impact on the business case for providing that service.

That is why I think we need to be cautious before we compare the two modes, and even more careful about reaching any kind of conclusion that because an airline can do it and make money, a railway company should be in exactly the same position. It's just not that simple.

Bletchleyite · 20 Dec 2016

Greenback said:
My point is that there will be more people who want rather than need a drink or snack on a flight. There are a few reasons for that. One of them is the aircraft environment itself in my view, then there's also the limited views compared to a train, the lack of intermediate calling points.

Basically I believe that because a flight is intrinsically less of a pleasant experience than travelling by train (again I accept that there will be exceptions) this is bound to contribute to making comparisons between the likes of Chiltern and Easyjet, or Ryanair and ATW very difficult indeed.

This is true, though I find there are aspects of air travel that make it more pleasant - for one the lack of a fight over seats.

That is why I think we need to be cautious before we compare the two modes, and even more careful about reaching any kind of conclusion that because an airline can do it and make money, a railway company should be in exactly the same position. It's just not that simple.

Indeed. Though there is *theoretically* scope to shift the on-train roles around so instead of driver and guard you have a door-operating driver and a safety-trained, ticket-checking, drinks-selling steward, it is highly unlikely that any TOC would actually do that because the unions and staff would not find it acceptable, and TOCs doing DOO would rather save money and not have the second member of staff at all (as indeed Chiltern are doing except on the LHCS which operationally requires a guard).

What might be feasible, of course, when we get to full automation, is to have a safety-trained, ticket-selling and drinks-selling steward instead of the driver...but then we're getting properly blue-sky.

Chiltern to remove on-board catering..

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