Northern Unit Refurbishments

yorksrob · 10 Oct 2017

61653 HTAFC said:
Surely the big issue with toilets is the tanking- for years "dump on the track" toilets could function endlessly and maintenance plans weren't needed to allow for tanks to be emptied. All of a sudden trains now need the tanks emptying at the end of each working day pretty much. Even if all units return to depot that's still a logistical challenge, and with units outstationed overnight away from the home depot that challenge becomes a nightmare.

The vacuum loos don't need as much water to function so that means less weight and less need to fill the water tanks so often along with more space for a bigger waste tank (potentially). If they're unreliable it isn't necessarily a flaw with the concept, just the execution.

158's had a modification so that they didn't dump on the track anyway.

In terms of the vacuum loo concept, I'm not convinced it will ever work adequately where it is the only toilet on a unit stuck on a long diagram in the middle of nowhere, miles away from a depot.

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cactustwirly · 10 Oct 2017

yorksrob said:
158's had a modification so that they didn't dump on the track anyway.

In terms of the vacuum loo concept, I'm not convinced it will ever work adequately where it is the only toilet on a unit stuck on a long diagram in the middle of nowhere, miles away from a depot.

It works fine on an aircraft, I've been on a 12 hour flight and not once did one fail.
Actually they use less water, so they're less likely to run out of water and subsequent locked OoU.

yorksrob · 10 Oct 2017

cactustwirly said:
It works fine on an aircraft, I've been on a 12 hour flight and not once did one fail.
Actually they use less water, so they're less likely to run out of water and subsequent locked OoU.

My knowledge of aeroplanes is limited, but if they could make the one on a 156 or 150 as reliable on a long diagram, that would be good.

61653 HTAFC · 10 Oct 2017

TT-ONR-NRN said:
332s are so much nicer than 333s

They're designed for very different purposes. One for local commuters on all/most-stops services and the other as a premium airport express shuttle. They're the same once you strip away the interiors but of course the 332s are "nicer"- I'm not sure how well they'd cope with the evening peak out of Leeds though!

185143 · 10 Oct 2017

1179_Clee2 said:
The biggest problem at the moment is logistics.
Look at just one of Northern's train fleet.
Northern have 58 Class 150/1 and 150/2's but only 12 have CET (+ 150 276 still to return to traffic)
Northern's 150's operate from Liverpool in the West to Hull in the East, so where CET fitted units are based overnight is a bit of a lottery.
The more units in each class in Northern's fleet that get CET you will get a more chance of it being emptied on depot.

Has 150276 gone out of traffic again since I had it to Sheffield on the 30th September?

Shaun_92 · 10 Oct 2017

185143 said:
Has 150276 gone out of traffic again since I had it to Sheffield on the 30th September?

It was a Sheffield on Sunday 8th October 2017 forming 2P19 1355 Sheffield to Retford

xotGD · 10 Oct 2017

61653 HTAFC said:
They're designed for very different purposes. One for local commuters on all/most-stops services and the other as a premium airport express shuttle. They're the same once you strip away the interiors but of course the 332s are "nicer"- I'm not sure how well they'd cope with the evening peak out of Leeds though!

As the 332s work doubled up, they would be great on the 17:26 Skipton!

xotGD · 10 Oct 2017

61653 HTAFC said:
They're getting a refurbishment at some point, which will include the driving cars having a more "commuter-oriented" interior with 2+2 seating. I think they were built already 2020-proof though, which pushes them down the priority list a bit.

I was getting my hopes up at the mention of 2+2 until I realised that just means fewer of the same narrow seats. Standees will still just crowd the vestibules and not move down the carriages regardless of any increase in empty floor space.

Anyway, shouldn't the new 6-car formations mean less standing?

61653 HTAFC · 11 Oct 2017

xotGD said:
As the 332s work doubled up, they would be great on the 17:26 Skipton!

Good luck getting permission to stop at all those short platforms with 8-10 cars!

xotGD said:
I was getting my hopes up at the mention of 2+2 until I realised that just means fewer of the same narrow seats. Standees will still just crowd the vestibules and not move down the carriages regardless of any increase in empty floor space.

Anyway, shouldn't the new 6-car formations mean less standing?

It isn't a given that new seats won't be provided, but as the plan is a "metro-style" set-up I'd assume 2+2 with a wide aisle. The current seats don't seem overly narrow, just not spaced out enough.
Not every service can be a 6x331 so allowing a bit more standing room on those that remain 4-car is a necessary evil. On the plus side, they might be a bit more spacious for off-peak use too- as long as the 2+2 saloons aren't 100% airline à la the dreaded Merseytravel Pacers!

Tim R-T-C · 11 Oct 2017

jcollins said:
Yes. All units are getting repainted, new seat cushions + covers, PRM mods (if needed.) The 333s are additionally getting a change to internal layout in the driving cars so they'll be fewer seats and more standing space.

Are we expecting them to go Northern white, or retain a Metro infused colour scheme?

Tim R-T-C · 11 Oct 2017

61653 HTAFC said:
They're designed for very different purposes. One for local commuters on all/most-stops services and the other as a premium airport express shuttle. They're the same once you strip away the interiors but of course the 332s are "nicer"- I'm not sure how well they'd cope with the evening peak out of Leeds though!

I read that as being about the 322s, I know they ran the StanEx many years ago but wouldn't call them premium!

I wouldn't mind a 332 or two up on the Aire Valley, with their purple lighting to calm commuters after a busy day in Leeds...

Starmill · 11 Oct 2017

Tim R-T-C said:
I read that as being about the 322s, I know they ran the StanEx many years ago but wouldn't call them premium!

They used to have a more 'Airport' interior, ScotRail changed it to the 3+2 layout they have today.

pemma · 11 Oct 2017

Tim R-T-C said:
Are we expecting them to go Northern white, or retain a Metro infused colour scheme?

Any PTE branding on trains will soon be a thing of the past. The amount of funding Northern gets from PTEs is being reduced every year.

pemma · 11 Oct 2017

61653 HTAFC said:
It isn't a given that new seats won't be provided, but as the plan is a "metro-style" set-up I'd assume 2+2 with a wide aisle. The current seats don't seem overly narrow, just not spaced out enough.

With a number of trains with 3+2 seating the seats aren't narrower than trains with 2+2 seating - losing space for 6 x armrests creates enough space for an extra seat but it does mean some passengers find there's no where for their arms to go if all seats are occupied!

northernchris · 13 Oct 2017

150142 is out in unbranded livery, looked like the seat covers and interior panels hadn't been touched

61653 HTAFC · 14 Oct 2017

yorksrob said:
158's had a modification so that they didn't dump on the track anyway.

In terms of the vacuum loo concept, I'm not convinced it will ever work adequately where it is the only toilet on a unit stuck on a long diagram in the middle of nowhere, miles away from a depot.

One thing I hope we can all agree on is that vacuum flush loos that aren't on planes/trains/other moveable things and especially automatically flushing loos that don't prevent the flush mechanism from activating when someone is sitting down mid-movement should be set on fire and left on the front lawn of the person who decided they were a good idea. Yes, I'm looking at you, St. Pancras International!

superkev · 20 Oct 2017

Seems to have gone very quiet on the redecoration front.
K

Goldie · 20 Oct 2017

Leeds on 28th September. It looked very shiny.

BurtonM · 22 Oct 2017

I’m on 150220 again. I don’t think these refurbs are as good as they look - I’m noticing all the bits in appliance white seem to have been done in situ, and are little more than a blow over with minimal prep. The litter bin flap has LM green(!!) showing around the edges where it’s behind the front plate of the bin, and a big run/crease in the paint where the lid meets the panel.
Screw heads and such just painted in, seals painted over, the luggage rack ends look like plaster casts. The paint is already starting to chip in places too, as well as that there are greasy handprints, scratches and all sorts. As mentioned before the glass is untouched too.
It just seems they’ve tried to get rid off the old beige interior as cheaply and quickly as possible and it’s ended up a bit like a rental property with a stingy landlord.
These are going to get very tired very quickly.

Starmill · 22 Oct 2017

150 137 is like that too, horribly painted inside. Bits of cracked and broken trim have been painted over grossly and you can see paint strokes and drips everywhere. I am pretty sure it is just a halfway house though, and 150 275 is not at all like that.

The scope of works between the groups of units, even though they are all 150s, is quite something.

Blindtraveler · 22 Oct 2017

What's a huge difference with to 75 then

Halish Railway · 22 Oct 2017

All of this begs the question, why has the complete refurbishment thing stopped and when will the current mess be rectified?

Starmill · 22 Oct 2017

150 275 has had the interior walls removed that divide up sections of it replaced with glass screens, the emergency equipment cabinet has been moved out of the vestibule to increase space around the doors, and some of the seats have been turned around which wastes less space. It also has new floors, new seat covers and the trim has been cleaned up and painted properly, rather than in a mucked up fashion with brushes. The doors have new silver panels at the bottom. The 'bellows' in the corridor connection have been replaced.

BurtonM · 22 Oct 2017

I don't get why they're doing it the way they are. When they redid the 156s they got new internal cladding and such...

175001 · 23 Oct 2017

Absolutely embarrassing these "refreshes". The previous MD who jumped ship wanted them "as new".....

47802 · 23 Oct 2017

175001 said:
Absolutely embarrassing these "refreshes". The previous MD who jumped ship wanted them "as new".....

So are we just moving to an even more cut price refurb?

175001 · 23 Oct 2017

Would not surprise me.

TH172341 · 23 Oct 2017

Does seem they are doing it on the cheap; rather surprising to be honest that it is turning into this bad a mess, seems to indicate a complete lack of leadership and organisation. Arriva are usually pretty good on train refurbishment (e.g Arriva Trains Wales and Chiltern) so clearly something amiss. You only have to look at their northern compatriot Transpennine Express for how a refurbishment to 'as new standard' is.

BigCj34 · 23 Oct 2017

This is not good enough, especially when in their franchise manifesto existing trains will be in an "as-new condition". The Sprinter series have been good diesel workhorses but clearly have their modern day limitations, namely they are noisy, have no air-conditioning and a low speed limit. Considering they will probably be on the network for at least another decade, a proper refurbishment is the least passengers should be getting if Northern want to try and shed the reputation of"clapped-out" carriages of the Sprinters.

While what's supposed to be delivered in the current Northern franchise with the new trains and timetabling is great, but it's very much jam tomorrow, and not reassuring to passengers on the Furness and Cumbria Coat line, which are frequently being hit by cancellations and delays.

notlob.divad · 23 Oct 2017

Halish Railway said:
All of this begs the question, why has the complete refurbishment thing stopped and when will the current mess be rectified?

BurtonM said:
I don't get why they're doing it the way they are. When they redid the 156s they got new internal cladding and such...

47802 said:
So are we just moving to an even more cut price refurb?

TH172341 said:
Does seem they are doing it on the cheap; rather surprising to be honest that it is turning into this bad a mess, seems to indicate a complete lack of leadership and organisation. Arriva are usually pretty good on train refurbishment (e.g Arriva Trains Wales and Chiltern) so clearly something amiss. You only have to look at their northern compatriot Transpennine Express for how a refurbishment to 'as new standard' is.

I have asked this before, and I didn't really get an answer. I am not trying to 'stir the pot' or anything I am genuinely interested...

This 'stopped' / 'cut price' / 'amiss' refurbishment.... I am wondering if the state of the sprinter fleet is worse than Arriva originally thought / was led to believe when they bid on the franchise. The refurbishment of the 319s seems to be relatively in line with people's expectations. I just wonder if they are awaiting the outcome of the 319 Flex (769) program. If this is as successful as Porterbrook seem to be implying it will be, could we see the Northern Franchise taking on a much larger batch of 769s with the worst of the pure diesel fleet becoming surplus to requirement? If that was in any way the thinking of my organisation, I would urge them not to be wasting money upgrading the units that may not be around for as long as originally expected.

Northern Unit Refurbishments

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