Northern Unit Refurbishments

[lammergeier]

As for the toilets, the flush lavatories had been replaced by vacuum examples, a completely unnecessary and counterproductive development, considering the previous toilets were already fitted with retention tanks. On the plus side, both loos were still in place, and the smaller cubicle still has the old door so presumably it can't lock itself out (which will at least allow privacy when I have to resort to bringing an empty 2L bottle on long journeys).

Unfortunately, whilst the toilets had been replaced unnecessarily, the hand-dryers, which have been pointless and unusable from the moment they were introduced in the early 1990's, remain untouched.

The toilets should have been replaced with vacuum flush ones when the tanks were added. There were terrible problems over the first couple of years after introduction, prticularly in summer, where the smell led to numerous complaints and trains being failed on the spot by crew who would refuse to work them. Unit diagrams had to be changed to ensure they were emptied at least daily with an additive put into the tanks to reduce the odour. It was a cheap and nasty mod which is finally being rectified.

 

[yorksrob]

The toilets should have been replaced with vacuum flush ones when the tanks were added. There were terrible problems over the first couple of years after introduction, prticularly in summer, where the smell led to numerous complaints and trains being failed on the spot by crew who would refuse to work them. Unit diagrams had to be changed to ensure they were emptied at least daily with an additive put into the tanks to reduce the odour. It was a cheap and nasty mod which is finally being rectified.

This was true at the start, however over the past couple of years the odour problem has largely been solved from a passenger point of view.

And at least those toilets didn't lock themselves out of use at the drop of a hat.

 

[lammergeier]

This was true at the start, however over the past couple of years the odour problem has largely been solved from a passenger point of view.

And at least those toilets didn't lock themselves out of use at the drop of a hat.

I'm pleased the issues were sorted out eventually, but I would hope lessons have been learned from the folly. Know what you mean about the toilets being a bit enthusiastic about locking themselves out, although I've yet to experience the new 158 set up if they're anything like 170s or similar then yes they can be tempremental.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm pleased the issues were sorted out eventually, but I would hope lessons have been learned from the folly. Know what you mean about the toilets being a bit enthusiastic about locking themselves out, although I've yet to experience the new 158 set up if they're anything like 170s or similar then yes they can be tempremental.

At least there are two toilets on a 158. I was on a refurbished 156 from Corkickle to Barrow recently where the toilet locked itself out. I ended up getting off and getting up the next train.

Still, hopefully if Northern keep up the daily tankings.....

 

[boeing737229]

I reckon that the Northern refurb spec has been changed part way through following feedback after the initial few units. Nobody seemed that impressed with the green handrails and re-covered existing seats on 158752/6/3/155346 and 150275.
Suspect that it's now been decided to retain the older seat covers until the new seats arrive for the 158s at least which is why recent refurb 158754 has its older seat covers retained along with the change to yellow handrails inside for refreshed units as per 156s

The green handrails & 'n' logo suited the colour scheme better than yellow imo, esp. since the new uniform features Arriva turquoise, the yellow really doesn't match at all!
Glad to see they seem to be dispensing with the 'by arriva' tagline under the Northern logo - at least on 150276.
Especially where they've retained the old purple seat covers, the yellow grab handles on the look absolutely dreadful! As for The re-covered & repainted seats on the 3 158s, the 155 and the 150, they look absolutely fine, absolutely nowt wrong with them; the white grab handles on them go well with the pastel blue of the seatbacks, and the Arriva green handrails really do suit the livery so much better than yellow!

 

[175001]

They're not dispensing of the 'by Arriva' tag line.... They're adding it

 

[northwichcat]

The seat covers should all get replaced, along with the cushions. It seems they are prioritising getting all the PRM modifications done.

 

[mikemcniven]

Not 100% sure if it's been mentioned but 150205 is now in based ARN livery without any logo's also looked untouched internally


Northern 150205 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr

 

[TH172341]

I swear Northern are trying to see how many variations they can get across the fleet - some with full work done, others half done, some repainted...bit of a mess.

 

[507021]

Another update.

Units in red are in the Northern Rail livery or their former operator's livery.
Units in blue are in the Northern livery.
Units in purple are in the base Northern livery.
Units in bold are fully refurbished.
Units with a ^ are out of service for refurbishment/PRM mods.
Units with a * have received PRM modifications.
Units with a $ are currently stored/out of service.
319s with an F are having engines fitted for the 319 Flex programme.

Class 150s:
150103, 150110, 150111, 150112, 150113, 150114, 150115, 150116, 150117, 150118, 150119, 150132, 150133, 150134*, 150135, 150136*, 150137*, 150138, 150139, 150140*, 150141, 150142^, 150143, 150144, 150145, 150146, 150147, 150148, 150149, 150150.

150201, 150203^, 150204*, 150205*, 150206*, 150207, 150210, 150211*, 150214, 150215, 150218, 150220*, 150222*, 150223*, 150224, 150225, 150226, 150228, 150268, 150269, 150270, 150271, 150272, 150273, 150274^, 150275*, 150276*, 150277.

Due: 150001, 150002*; 150101, 150102, 150104, 150105, 150106, 150107, 150108, 150109, 150120, 150121, 150122, 150123, 150124, 150125, 150126*, 150127, 150128, 150129, 150130, 150131; 150202*, 150216*.

Class 155s:
155341, 155342, 155343, 155344, 155345^, 155346*, 155347.

Class 156s:
156420, 156421, 156423, 156424, 156425, 156426, 156427, 156428, 156429, 156438^, 156440, 156441, 156443*, 156444*, 156448, 156451*, 156452, 156454*, 156455, 156459, 156460, 156461, 156463*, 156464, 156466, 156468, 156469^, 156471*, 156472*, 156475, 156479*, 156480, 156481*, 156482*, 156483*, 156484*, 156486*, 156487*, 156488*, 156489*, 156490, 156491*.

Due: 1564??, 1564??, 1564??, 1564??, 1564??.

Class 158s:
2-car: 158784, 158787, 158790, 158791, 158792, 158793, 158794, 158795, 158796, 158797, 158815, 158816, 158817, 158842, 158843, 158844, 158845*, 158848, 158849*, 158850^, 158851, 158853, 158855, 158859, 158860*, 158861, 158872.

158901, 158902, 158903, 158904, 158905, 158906, 158907, 158908, 158909, 158910.

3-car: 158752*, 158753*, 158754*, 158755^, 158756*, 158757, 158758, 158759.

Due: 158782, 158786, 158789, 158867, 158868, 158869, 158870, 158871.

Note: 158906 is fitted with WiFi, charging points and a PIS in one carriage.

Class 170s:
170453, 170454, 170455, 170456, 170457, 170458, 170459, 170460, 170461, 170472, 170473, 170474, 170475, 170476, 170477, 170478.

Class 319s:
319361*, 319362*, 319363*, 319364*, 319365*, 319366*, 319367*, 319368*, 319369*, 319370*, 319371, 319374*, 319375*, 319376, 319377*, 319378*, 319379*, 319380, 319381*$, 319382*, 319383*, 319384*$, 319385*$, 319386.

319424*F, 319431*^, 319434*F, 319442*^, 319448*, 319450*, 319456*F, 319458*^.

Class 333s:
333001, 333002, 333003, 333004, 333005, 333006, 333007, 333008, 333009, 333010, 333011, 333012, 333013, 333014, 333015, 333016.

If anybody notices any mistakes, or has information on the PRM status of the units expected to arrive, please let me know.

 

[47802]

I swear Northern are trying to see how many variations they can get across the fleet - some with full work done, others half done, some repainted...bit of a mess.

Half arsed indeed and if the 158's are going to get new seats it would be nice to see at least one actual finished version given the length of time the new franchise has now been running.

 

[M1544]

Half arsed indeed and if the 158's are going to get new seats it would be nice to see at least one actual finished version given the length of time the new franchise has now been running.

Dont forget these sets are also supposed to get wifi and USB ports, will that be done with the new seats or is there a third phase planned?
I agree they are loosing any chance of a wow factor with a fully refitted unit that is seen as a step change from the unrefurbished sets with all these ad hoc type incremental changes.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Um, where are the 323s?

 

[IanXC]

Um, where are the 323s?

Leaving the franchise.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Oh yes. Silly me.

 

[superkev]

I heard a rumour that the redecorated designed for dwarfs 155 has been laid up at NL after hitting a tree near Horsforth. Truly awfully trains. Lets hope it's a write off.
K

 

[Starmill]

This was true at the start, however over the past couple of years the odour problem has largely been solved from a passenger point of view.

This is true but if the new toilet system costs less and requires less immanence time (which is what I predicted) then I would say its an improvement.

 

[Alan2603]

This is true but if the new toilet system costs less and requires less immanence time (which is what I predicted) then I would say its an improvement.

What have toilet systems got to do with (and needing less time for) immanence?

Sorry, but I cannot understand its relevance to the topic.

 

[yorksrob]

This is true but if the new toilet system costs less and requires less immanence time (which is what I predicted) then I would say its an improvement.

I would say that whether it is an improvement depends entirely on how much time they are locked out of use during the passenger service. This is particularly critical on units with only one lavatory. Past experience with such installations suggest that this is unlikely to be an improvement.

As a passenger, turn around times and the cost of running the things are so far down on my list of priorities as to be invisible.

 

[Mordac]

Are the 333s getting anything done to them?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are the 333s getting anything done to them?

They're getting a refurbishment at some point, which will include the driving cars having a more "commuter-oriented" interior with 2+2 seating. I think they were built already 2020-proof though, which pushes them down the priority list a bit.

 

[northwichcat]

Are the 333s getting anything done to them?

Yes. All units are getting repainted, new seat cushions + covers, PRM mods (if needed.) The 333s are additionally getting a change to internal layout in the driving cars so they'll be fewer seats and more standing space.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Neville Hill "Christmas Tree" unit (333009) has already been reactivated, I'd expect everything else to be a while off yet with all the PRM-stuff needed on the BR-era legacy units.

 

[skyhigh]

I heard a rumour that the redecorated designed for dwarfs 155 has been laid up at NL after hitting a tree near Horsforth. Truly awfully trains. Lets hope it's a write off.
K

Fairly certain I saw it in Leeds this morning (in service)

 

[Starmill]

As a passenger, turn around times and the cost of running the things are so far down on my list of priorities as to be invisible.

Much as I see what you mean, I take a more pragmatic view. Cost affects the overall viability of the service, so measures that reduce it while still providing the same (or better) functionality are important. The issue of the cost of toilets alone won't make or break anything, but the principle scales.

 

[yorksrob]

Much as I see what you mean, I take a more pragmatic view. Cost affects the overall viability of the service, so measures that reduce it while still providing the same (or better) functionality are important. The issue of the cost of toilets alone won't make or break anything, but the principle scales.

oh, I agree in principle, but the "same or better" functionality is key here. I'm highly sceptical that vacuum toilets can provide even the same functionality as a flush one, given their propensity to go OOU in service.

 

[Starmill]

The title of this old thread made me smile: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-158-refurbs-on-the-cheap.16011/

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Surely the big issue with toilets is the tanking- for years "dump on the track" toilets could function endlessly and maintenance plans weren't needed to allow for tanks to be emptied. All of a sudden trains now need the tanks emptying at the end of each working day pretty much. Even if all units return to depot that's still a logistical challenge, and with units outstationed overnight away from the home depot that challenge becomes a nightmare.

The vacuum loos don't need as much water to function so that means less weight and less need to fill the water tanks so often along with more space for a bigger waste tank (potentially). If they're unreliable it isn't necessarily a flaw with the concept, just the execution.

 

[1179_Clee2]

Surely the big issue with toilets is the tanking- for years "dump on the track" toilets could function endlessly and maintenance plans weren't needed to allow for tanks to be emptied. All of a sudden trains now need the tanks emptying at the end of each working day pretty much. Even if all units return to depot that's still a logistical challenge, and with units outstationed overnight away from the home depot that challenge becomes a nightmare.

The vacuum loos don't need as much water to function so that means less weight and less need to fill the water tanks so often along with more space for a bigger waste tank (potentially). If they're unreliable it isn't necessarily a flaw with the concept, just the execution.

The biggest problem at the moment is logistics.
Look at just one of Northern's train fleet.
Northern have 58 Class 150/1 and 150/2's but only 12 have CET (+ 150 276 still to return to traffic)
Northern's 150's operate from Liverpool in the West to Hull in the East, so where CET fitted units are based overnight is a bit of a lottery.
The more units in each class in Northern's fleet that get CET you will get a more chance of it being emptied on depot.

 

[Alan2603]

The biggest problem at the moment is logistics.
Look at just one of Northern's train fleet.
Northern have 58 Class 150/1 and 150/2's but only 12 have CET (+ 150 276 still to return to traffic)
Northern's 150's operate from Liverpool in the West to Hull in the East, so where CET fitted units are based overnight is a bit of a lottery.
The more units in each class in Northern's fleet that get CET you will get a more chance of it being emptied on depot.

It amazes me that even on 30 minute turn rounds at foreign airports, they generally manage to empty the CET effluent from aircraft with the 'honey cart'.

Perhaps the train companies need to look to the aviation industry to see how it is done, and have the necessary equipment (not necessarily an airport honey truck) but a small version which can go alongside a train (or have the necessary flexible pipes laid between tracks to put onto a train on turnaround with the effluent pumped into tank somewhere.

I suppose cost will come into it, but it should be the way forward rather than having toilets locked out of service until the train visits the depot.