Advance ticket restrictions... too harsh?

142blue · 12 Nov 2017

Curious...

Are the restrictions on advances too harsh when the person misses the train. I work on the industry and I'm interested for personal reasons what others feel

Now obviously no one wants to part with more money but if the train goes and you are not on it then it's a case of needing a new ticket

However what about paying up to the next available fare plus a surcharge for doing so. Customer gains as paying difference is preferable to new ticket and TOC gets additional revenue too

It's personal to me and nothing to do with where I work but just interested to see how others feel and there's many knowledgeable people on here

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ASharpe · 12 Nov 2017

If they were cheap to change after the train had departed then people who do need flexibility would buy Advances and just upgrade them if their plans change. So less revenue would be generated than if people just bought walkup tickets to begin with.

And this would all lead to longer queues at ticket offices.

BigCj34 · 12 Nov 2017

I know you can change the time of an advance fare if you pay the difference plus £10, but can that only be for another advance ticket, or walk-up ones as well?

Starmill · 12 Nov 2017

BigCj34 said:
I know you can change the time of an advance fare if you pay the difference plus £10, but can that only be for another advance ticket, or walk-up ones as well?

You can excess an Advance ticket up to (for example) an Anytime Single if you want to, with the £10 fee. I think you can even excess two Advance tickets into a walk-up return if you want to (again, you will probably need to pay two £10 fees).

142blue · 12 Nov 2017

Yes they can be changed.

So the feeling is it's important to try and keep people on the trains they are booked onto?

Bletchleyite · 12 Nov 2017

I would say a "rescue fee" a la low cost airlines makes sense, but it should be higher than the standard £10. £20 maybe.

robbeech · 13 Nov 2017

IMO, given that we are allowed by a member of staff to board the next available train in times of disruption at an absolute minimum and quite often if you give them a good enough excuse they'll let you on the next one even if your delay wasn't due to the railway then i think it's ok as it is. There might need to be a better way of implementing it for people who might not be able to afford a new ticket / excess there and then although protocols for this are already in place.
Advance tickets are priced favourably enough as it is, it gives the TOC a better idea of train loading and allows them to spread the passengers out a little bit to keep the busier trains a little emptier. I appreciate it is all relative and i do agree than many flows are incredibly expensive.

FQTV · 13 Nov 2017

If anything, I think that Advances are - like much of the ticketing landscape - a victim of their own complexity.

On the West Coast, and until recently on the East Coast since National Express, the availability of very cheap Standard Advances at times mean that they're almost disposable.

As there's no incentive to cancel, it can regularly end up with tickets flapping above unsquashed seats, slowing boarding and increasing stress levels, as well as 'blocking' Advance inventory from passengers who really do want to travel.

Even a £2 'bottle deposit' refund might mitigate this.

radamfi · 13 Nov 2017

FQTV said:
On the West Coast, and until recently on the East Coast since National Express, the availability of very cheap Standard Advances at times mean that they're almost disposable.

Although London-Manchester used to start at £8, now it is usually £23.

ASharpe · 13 Nov 2017

FQTV said:
until recently on the East Coast since National Express, the availability of very cheap Standard Advances at times mean that they're almost disposable.

I'll admit to that. Between 2013 and 2015 I had journeys booked every single weekend at around £9 each way between West Yorkshire and King's Cross. Most got used but I certainly threw away hundreds of pounds worth. But it was far cheaper than buying walk ups.

MG11 · 14 Nov 2017

142blue said:
Curious...

Are the restrictions on advances too harsh when the person misses the train. I work on the industry and I'm interested for personal reasons what others feel

Now obviously no one wants to part with more money but if the train goes and you are not on it then it's a case of needing a new ticket

However what about paying up to the next available fare plus a surcharge for doing so. Customer gains as paying difference is preferable to new ticket and TOC gets additional revenue too

It's personal to me and nothing to do with where I work but just interested to see how others feel and there's many knowledgeable people on here

They are not too harsh, no. The ticket is heavily, sometimes ridiculously, discounted. That discount comes on the condition that the passenger travels on the booked train only. If customers want flexibility, then they can get an Anytime ticket. Personally, I always get anytime tickets, as I don't like to be timed, but I think Advance fares make good commercial sense, as the TOCs actually retain more money from the price of those tickets, as opposed to conventional, government regulated fares, where only 3p from every pound goes back to the TOC.

Clip · 14 Nov 2017

MG11 said:
They are not too harsh, no. The ticket is heavily, sometimes ridiculously, discounted. That discount comes on the condition that the passenger travels on the booked train only. If customers want flexibility, then they can get an Anytime ticket. Personally, I always get anytime tickets, as I don't like to be timed, but I think Advance fares make good commercial sense, as the TOCs actually retain more money from the price of those tickets, as opposed to conventional, government regulated fares, where only 3p from every pound goes back to the TOC.

Well depending on how much or how little flexibility you want it doesn't stand that you have to buy an anytime ticket when an off peak may suffice depending on the journey made

MG11 · 14 Nov 2017

Clip said:
Well depending on how much or how little flexibility you want it doesn't stand that you have to buy an anytime ticket when an off peak may suffice depending on the journey made

That's true, but then you have to carry a timetable with you/download a timetable and check the shading on each service you intend to travel on to check if it's Off Peak. There's no set rules for all operators, Northern have a PM peak on their local trains, EMT don't seem(?) to have a PM peak on their local services but their London trains do, as do some XC services from Birmingham. It's quite a brain racker if you just want a relaxing day out.

hounddog · 14 Nov 2017

MG11 said:
That's true, but then you have to carry a timetable with you/download a timetable and check the shading on each service you intend to travel on to check if it's Off Peak. There's no set rules for all operators, Northern have a PM peak on their local trains, EMT don't seem(?) to have a PM peak on their local services but their London trains do, as do some XC services from Birmingham. It's quite a brain racker if you just want a relaxing day out.

And that's before you take account of staff who don't know the rules and, rather than check, make up their own.

Hadders · 14 Nov 2017

MG11 said:
That's true, but then you have to carry a timetable with you/download a timetable and check the shading on each service you intend to travel on to check if it's Off Peak. There's no set rules for all operators, Northern have a PM peak on their local trains, EMT don't seem(?) to have a PM peak on their local services but their London trains do, as do some XC services from Birmingham. It's quite a brain racker if you just want a relaxing day out.

No need to do any of that.

The new style tickets say to visit national rail.co.uk/xx where xx is the restriction code to find out details of when an Off peak ticket is valid.

This is actually one of the few things that’s better with the new style tickets.

MG11 · 14 Nov 2017

Hadders said:
No need to do any of that.

The new style tickets say to visit national rail.co.uk/xx where xx is the restriction code to find out details of when an Off peak ticket is valid.

This is actually one of the few things that’s better with the new style tickets.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. Would that also include situations where a restriction only applies to one TOC but numerous operators could be used, say if you was going from Manchester Piccadilly-Stockport on an Off-Peak, you could use Northern or TPE but only Northern has the afternoon Peak restrictions??

Hadders · 14 Nov 2017

MG11 said:
Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. Would that also include situations where a restriction only applies to one TOC but numerous operators could be used, say if you was going from Manchester Piccadilly-Stockport on an Off-Peak, you could use Northern or TPE but only Northern has the afternoon Peak restrictions??

The new style tickets state if there is an operator restriction as well as giving the link to the restriction code.

bb21 · 14 Nov 2017

MG11 said:
Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. Would that also include situations where a restriction only applies to one TOC but numerous operators could be used, say if you was going from Manchester Piccadilly-Stockport on an Off-Peak, you could use Northern or TPE but only Northern has the afternoon Peak restrictions??

The afternoon peak restriction will apply to all operators, not just Northern, in your given example between Manchester and Stockport on the inter-available fare (Any Permitted).

Restrictions apply to each fare, not to trains. A train restricted to one fare, eg. Off-Peak Single/Return, on a particular flow (journey if you like) may not be restricted to the same fare on another flow. Fares priced by the same TOC on different flows may also have different restrictions. Carrying a timetable is no way to cover all bases. It covers a sub-section of the most frequently used fares.

MG11 · 14 Nov 2017

bb21 said:
The afternoon peak restriction will apply to all operators, not just Northern, in your given example between Manchester and Stockport on the inter-available fare (Any Permitted).

Restrictions apply to each fare, not to trains. A train restricted to one fare, eg. Off-Peak Single/Return, on a particular flow (journey if you like) may not be restricted to the same fare on another flow. Fares priced by the same TOC on different flows may also have different restrictions. Carrying a timetable is no way to cover all bases. It covers a sub-section of the most frequently used fares.

How are timetables no way to cover all bases, surely if read accurately, it is a way to determine the restriction status of the service?

marshmallow · 14 Nov 2017

142blue said:
Are the restrictions on advances too harsh when the person misses the train

asharpe said:
If they were cheap to change after the train had departed then people who do need flexibility would buy Advances and just upgrade them if their plans change

This is true, however in an ideal world it would be nice if the train companies charged a small or no fee if someone tried to get to their train but missed it, e.g. due to a cancelled bus. In practice it would be very difficult to have such a policy so all one can do is hope that staff will endorse one's ticket at their discretion in exceptional circumstances.

221129 · 14 Nov 2017

marshmallow said:
This is true, however in an ideal world it would be nice if the train companies charged a small or no fee if someone tried to get to their train but missed it, e.g. due to a cancelled bus. In practice it would be very difficult to have such a policy so all one can do is hope that staff will endorse one's ticket at their discretion in exceptional circumstances.

Or people could take responsibility for their own travel arrangements or buy a ticket that better suits their needs.

marshmallow · 14 Nov 2017

221129 said:
Or people could take responsibility for their own travel arrangements or buy a ticket that better suits their needs.

Ideally yes, however if someone doesn't have much money and has a bus journey to get to the station then this is a difficult one.

sheff1 · 14 Nov 2017

221129 said:
Or people could take responsibility for their own travel arrangements

A surprising number of people on here would seem to prefer it if everyone drove themselves or walked whenever they wanted to travel.

Anyone who is using public transport is not, by definition, taking responsibility for their own travel arrangements.

221129 · 14 Nov 2017

marshmallow said:
Ideally yes, however if someone doesn't have much money and has a bus journey to get to the station then this is a difficult one.

If they know the bus is likely to be late then they should try and catch an earlier bus. I am not sure how the railway can be to blame for someone else's poor planning or a late bus.

bb21 · 14 Nov 2017

MG11 said:
How are timetables no way to cover all bases, surely if read accurately, it is a way to determine the restriction status of the service?

No.

Read what I just posted again. You need to keep telling yourself that it is not trains that are "peak" or "off-peak" until you believe it. Each fare will have its own definition of what is restricted.

For example, the 0712 Bedford Midland - Beckenham Junction service is restricted to the holder of a Nottingham - London Terminals Any Permitted Off-Peak Return (£98.50) on the outward portion. A Bedford Stations - Swindon Any Permitted Off-Peak Return (£82.50) is however not restricted on this service on the outward portion.

This is the single most important concept of the fares system in this country I would say. It is a shame the vast majority of the general public do not understand this concept.

sheff1 · 14 Nov 2017

221129 said:
I am not sure how the railway can be to blame for someone else's poor planning or a late bus.

I must have missed the post(s) which were blaming the railway for a late bus.

marshmallow · 14 Nov 2017

sheff1 said:
I must have missed the post(s) which were blaming the railway for a late bus.

Yes I started this thread earlier...
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...taxi-if-a-delay-means-last-bus-missed.156987/

sheff1 · 14 Nov 2017

marshmallow said:
Yes I started this thread earlier...

I still can't see anything there which is blaming the railway for a bus being late.

MG11 · 15 Nov 2017

bb21 said:
No.

Read what I just posted again. You need to keep telling yourself that it is not trains that are "peak" or "off-peak" until you believe it. Each fare will have its own definition of what is restricted.

For example, the 0712 Bedford Midland - Beckenham Junction service is restricted to the holder of a Nottingham - London Terminals Any Permitted Off-Peak Return (£98.50) on the outward portion. A Bedford Stations - Swindon Any Permitted Off-Peak Return (£82.50) is however not restricted on this service on the outward portion.

This is the single most important concept of the fares system in this country I would say. It is a shame the vast majority of the general public do not understand this concept.

When you say restricted, are you reffering to the application of Off Peak restrictions or something else? I read your post again and I'm not quite grasping it here?

Gareth Marston · 15 Nov 2017

I think theirs several problems here with fares and public perception generally-

Some people unreasonably expect the railway to transport them for tuppenny halfpenny half way round the UK - they often tend to be "older lifestyle choice" incomers to my area who don't like the reality of paying to visit relatives in the SE of England.
Some people are financially illiterate to real travel costs - I know of people who will drive 150 + miles and pay city centre parking who wail that rail fares are too expensive rather than pay £20.00 on a rail ticket. I had a lady complain that the £28.10 off peak return to Birmingham International from Newtown was too expensive the other day, I asked her if she had got a quote for a taxi or looked at how much parking a her car would cost for 2 weeks.......
Many people have heard on the media that rail fares are a con/ too expensive and apply that perceived wisdom to all fares even the good value for money ones. Ive seen people moan that the £39.70 Super Off Peak Return form Newtown to Marylebone is putting people off traveling by rail....
Price gouging by the TOC's on "peak" fares and the growing gap between walk on and book ahead has created culture of bargain hunting and trying to get one over the TOC's, there's market resistance to pricing policy's.
Some fares are genuinely too expensive and discourage travel, Cardiff is the destination we get he most inquries about from people who don't buy tickets this then feeds into the above factors. Cardiff is 99 miles by road , 135 by rail from here. The £63.10 Off Peak Return is just not competitive especially for multiples.

Advance ticket restrictions... too harsh?

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