Possible plans for Edinburgh Waverley station?

InOban said:

As a listed building, I can't conceive of them getting permission to remove the either ramp.

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Never really found the ramps particularly interesting architecturally, save for a few details. They're both so cluttered with railings/barriers/other assorted street clutter anyway. Would prefer a much revamped station over a couple of listed ramps!

Altnabreac said:

Once you've build an east end mezzanine that goes from Calton Street as far as platform 8/9 it seems to me that it would be logical for it also to provide a new pedestrian access to Market Street particularly with both the New Street car park and the council HQ at Waverley Court being relatively popular passenger destinations.

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There’s also a new civil service hub being built next door to Waverley Court which will accommodate nearly 3000 staff.

InOban said:

As a listed building, I can't conceive of them getting permission to remove the either ramp.

I don't think there's any need in the foreseeable future for more through platforms on the south side. More capacity on the North side to allow Fife services to run through towards the Borders, that would be useful.

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Sympathetic alterations necessary for a clear public benefit aren't normally so problematic. They would reject any idea of doing a New Street and concreting over the roof of the station but a mezzanine with deletion of both ramps should be fine. The ramp areas would probably end up accommodating a new set of escalators down onto the concourse anyway, so the basic design touches could be retained.

Through platforms are useful even if most services terminate in them. You don't lose so much space to buffer overrun areas and you can dynamically re-assign capacity between the east and west ends as necessary. For instance, if you extend Platform 18 through you would get about 500m of total length, which you could divide up into full-length sections for both ends. Two trains from the west could both head into it one after the other, with the rear one reversing earlier and the other one waiting until there's a return path. When conflicting movements are inevitable, a good way of maximising peak-direction capacity is to just provide lots of turnback/stabling space at the terminus.

I would have thought that at least one ramp is necessary to allow access by emergency vehicles and for deliveries to concourse-level businesses. And since they are, architecturally, a pair, that means keeping both.

Whether you can create a 'sympathetc' mezzanine stretching from the N, at the bridge at the base of the Waverley Steps, across to the N wall at platform 10, that's a challenge.

InOban said:

I would have thought that at least one ramp is necessary to allow access by emergency vehicles and for deliveries to concourse-level businesses. And since they are, architecturally, a pair, that means keeping both.

Whether you can create a 'sympathetc' mezzanine stretching from the N, at the bridge at the base of the Waverley Steps, across to the N wall at platform 10, that's a challenge.

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How do emergency vehicles access Birmingham New Street?

I was wondering that.

Why create a Mezannine when (as I understand it) there is a vast space (going down many levels) underneath the station?

route:oxford said:

Why create a Mezannine when (as I understand it) there is a vast space (going down many levels) underneath the station?

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That's interesting but could be expensive.

InOban said:

I would have thought that at least one ramp is necessary to allow access by emergency vehicles and for deliveries to concourse-level businesses. And since they are, architecturally, a pair, that means keeping both.

Whether you can create a 'sympathetc' mezzanine stretching from the N, at the bridge at the base of the Waverley Steps, across to the N wall at platform 10, that's a challenge.

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Remember that the reason for the mezzanine is that there won't be much space left on the ground. With the various platform lengthening and modification works suggested in the SRA, there really wouldn't be much space left on ground level. Without the space for vehicles to drive about, there's no reason to have the ramps.

Servicing access doesn't have to mean vans going onto platforms. Even in the most optimistic scenario the eastern side of the station will never need to be filled with terminating platforms, so any servicing areas will likely remain there. With Calton Road and New Street having an underground junction under the eastern throat, it seems like a better way of providing access. Either a service-only ramp could go up to street level, or an underground servicing area provided with large lifts up to platform level. That underground servicing idea would also give easier access to the rest of the station without impinging on the Victorian architecture. Service lifts and an underground passageway could be provided on each of the individual platform island areas on the eastern side without disrupting passenger flow or being obvious to passengers. The 'state of the art' for major station servicing is demonstrated in the HS2 plans for Euston and it relies heavily upon underground servicing.

route:oxford said:

Why create a Mezannine when (as I understand it) there is a vast space (going down many levels) underneath the station?

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Well, first of all, the rest of Edinburgh is higher up than the station. Undercrofts make a lot of sense when the ground level is wholly or partly below the tracks (e.g. London Bridge or St Pancras), as you don't need many level changes to get to and from platforms.

The bigger problem is that providing a large enough undercroft level for the expected number of passengers would be a very disruptive task, and result in a gloomier and less pleasant environment. Servicing is fine underground, but passengers like natural light. Servicing requirements are also smaller than passengers, as you only need to provide the minimum space for goods and staff to move around efficiently.

InOban said:

I would have thought that at least one ramp is necessary to allow access by emergency vehicles and for deliveries to concourse-level businesses. And since they are, architecturally, a pair, that means keeping both.

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NotATrainspott said:

Servicing access doesn't have to mean vans going onto platforms. Even in the most optimistic scenario the eastern side of the station will never need to be filled with terminating platforms, so any servicing areas will likely remain there. With Calton Road and New Street having an underground junction under the eastern throat, it seems like a better way of providing access. Either a service-only ramp could go up to street level, or an underground servicing area provided with large lifts up to platform level. That underground servicing idea would also give easier access to the rest of the station without impinging on the Victorian architecture. Service lifts and an underground passageway could be provided on each of the individual platform island areas on the eastern side without disrupting passenger flow or being obvious to passengers. The 'state of the art' for major station servicing is demonstrated in the HS2 plans for Euston and it relies heavily upon underground servicing.

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New Street is east of the throat and a ramp up from here would conflict with the throat tracks above. You have to go about to the end of the trainshed before there's enough track-free area for a ramp to surface, and I think by then Calton Road has risen enough that there wouldn't be enough headroom for an access there to go under the tracks. So I think one ramp would have to stay.

However I don't think keeping one ramp necessarily means keeping all of both. If the north wall of the south ramp was kept then it, with the south wall of the north ramp, would still "frame" the west concourse in the same way (not that it's very visible with the shops blocking the view). Removing the roadway and south wall of the north ramp would make space for the extra platform. The top part of the ramp could be kept to leave the views on Waverley Bridge almost unchanged, and using this for escalators/lifts down into the western concourse would be a shorter walking route for anyone approaching the station needing a train from a western bay, instad of going down the ramp and doubling back. It might even be possible to have a high level walkway using the northern part of the footprint of the south ramp, and linking to the extended mezzanine.

If money were no object, **this is what i'd do** Waverley Improvements...

Platform 1 - Better Access Required, wider steps or more access in place. Rush/Any Service.
Platform 2 - Rush/Any Service.
NEW Platform 3 - Create between the current Platforms 2/3. Gate Lined. Dedicate to terminating South East / Borders Services

Platform 4 - Current Platform 3 renumbered. Clearer Access, it's currently a little bit hidden by the opps dept. and staff areas. Gate Lined. Dedicate to terminating South East / Borders Services

Platform 5 - Current Platform 4 renumbered. Extend towards east tunnel - create more public realm space in front of here by filling in the area fractionally. Gate Lined. Dedicate to terminating South East / Borders Services

Platform 6 - Current Platform 5 being rebuilt then renumbered. Dedicate this Platform to terminating ECML services

Platform 7 - Create this between the new Platform 6 and new Platform 8. Gate Lined.

Platform 8 - Platform 7 Renumbered. Rush/Any service (thru Platform)
NEW Platform 9 - Extend the current Platform 10 in line with Platform 7, creating Platform 9. Rush/Any service (thru Platform)

Platform 9e - Extend further east and merge with 9w, renumber to Platform 10. Dedicate this Platform to ECML services that terminate or continue thru

Platform 8e - Extend further east and merge with 8w, renumber to Platform 11. Dedicate this Platform to ECML services that terminate or continue thru

Platform 10 - Renumber to Platform 12. Improve access. Rush/Any service (thru Platform)
Platform 11 - Renumber to Platform 13. Rush/Any service (thru Platform)
Platform 12 - Renumber to Platform 14 and close off - make it gate lined. Dedicate to EDB to MLN/HLC via GLQ services.

Remove ScotRail building (ticket office) between current Platform 12/13 - create better public realm

Platform 13 - Renumber to Platform 15. Dedicate to EDB to GLQ services.
Platform 14 - Renumber to Platform 16. Dedicate to EDB to GLQ services.
Platform 15 - Renumber to Platform 17. Dedicate to EDB to GLQ services.
Platform 16 - Renumber to Platform 18. Dedicate to Fife and Highland Services.
Platform 17 - Renumber to Platform 19. Dedicate to Fife and Highland Services.
Platform 18 - Renumber to Platform 20. Dedicate to Fife and Highland Services.
Platform 19 - Renumber to Platform 21. Rush/Any Service (thru Platform) Caledonian Sleeper platform.
Platform 20 - Renumber to Platform 22 - Create better access as with Platform 1. Rush/Any Service (thru Platform) Caledonian Sleeper platform.

Keep BTP premises parallel with the North Ramp, but move West and resize allowing for the creation of a ScotRail first class lounge on the current site of BTP. Virgin First Class Lounge kept where it is, create a through link from ticket offices direct to lounge and Platforms 3 thru 7.

ScotRail first class lounge will have direct access to the gait lined Platforms 16-22, in theory all ScotRail first class equipped trains would be departing Platform 14-20, going by above plans.

Creating a familiar space for frequent passengers and an easy to use space for everyone.

Taxis...

On Waverley Bridge there's currently 10 bus stops/bays, 2 Airlink, 1 Airlink reserve and 7 Tours. Create 1 Stop for each Tour, City Sightseeing, Edinburgh Tour, Majestic Tour, 3 Bridges tour and the Ghost Tour, which can be shared with other city tour operators. So that's 5 bays, with excess buses queuing on Market Street (West/Mound side). 2 bays for Airlink. Lothian already have a bridge manager for tours and Airlink.

In total 7 bus stops, creating 3 free stops. Those 3 stops should be turned into a Taxi Rank with enough space for 8 taxis - appoint a marshal. Waiting taxis can do so in a waiting area in New Street carpark, which can also act as a Taxi Rank - appoint a marshal for the rank.

Create 2 coach stops on Market Street East for coach parties and rail replacement services. Appoint a manager to manage the Coach Area when necessary. Extra coaches can wait on Market Street West or Calton Road.

Lothian Bridge manager is in charge of making sure a maximum of 7 buses are on the bridge at once. When a bus leaves, then another can be request another from the Market Street West Manager.

Taxi Bridge manager in charge of making sure only 8 taxis are on the bridge at one moment when one leaves, others can be requested from the New Street Taxi rank. Drop offs can be done so on Calton Road or in a drop off only point on Market Street East.

The overall bridge manager is in charge of everything and is able to hand out fines to excess buses, coaches or taxis on the bridge or Market Street East.

Create a public drop off point on Calton Road.

OmniCity999 said:

If money were no object, **this is what i'd do** Waverley Improvements...

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Most of your changes seem to be about adding extra through platforms on the eastern side. I don't really think these are going to be needed, or useful. There will always be an imbalance between the eastern and western sides, with the western side needing more platforms but ones which only need to be 200m long at most. The eastern side will never need as many platforms, but it will need them to be ~265m long to handle the many LDHS services from Newcastle. There isn't an awful lot of space for ~265m platforms on the eastern side - the new Platform 5 and 6 will run all the way up to the bottom of the ramp to be long enough for 10-car 80x services. The ScotRail services will always be better sent into through platforms, as there's a strong incentive to run commuter trains directly through to Haymarket or Edinburgh Park/Gateway for the many jobs there. There could only ever be a small handful of non-full-length but terminating trains on that side into the future.

What lies underneath Edinburgh Waverley ?

route101 said:

What lies underneath Edinburgh Waverley ?

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https://www.scotsman.com/news/video-the-forgotten-tunnels-hidden-beneath-waverley-station-1-4436362

This from The Scotsman, just under a year ago but too long to quote. Worth a read and watch though.

Available space is mostly at the New Street end.

OmniCity999 said:

Taxis...

appoint a marshal for the rank.

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This one small action, regardless of the location of the rank or ranks, would make a huge difference to efficiency and the welcome for visitors arriving in the city for the first time.

If truth be told the old internal rank fell into chaos at very busy periods (queues in opposing directions was a favourite) and cab drivers complained constantly that Network Rail was happy to take their permit fees but did nothing to manage the facility. Marshals were requested but never provided.

It does seem to be particular blind spot NR has at Waverley ever since the old arrangement using both ranks went in the 1990s. They don't seem to understand that it's probably the UK's number one station for passengers unfamiliar with its layout, towing enormous luggage, and needing taxis.

NotATrainspott said:

Most of your changes seem to be about adding extra through platforms on the eastern side. I don't really think these are going to be needed, or useful. There will always be an imbalance between the eastern and western sides, with the western side needing more platforms but ones which only need to be 200m long at most. The eastern side will never need as many platforms, but it will need them to be ~265m long to handle the many LDHS services from Newcastle. There isn't an awful lot of space for ~265m platforms on the eastern side - the new Platform 5 and 6 will run all the way up to the bottom of the ramp to be long enough for 10-car 80x services. The ScotRail services will always be better sent into through platforms, as there's a strong incentive to run commuter trains directly through to Haymarket or Edinburgh Park/Gateway for the many jobs there. There could only ever be a small handful of non-full-length but terminating trains on that side into the future.

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47271 said:

This one small action, regardless of the location of the rank or ranks, would make a huge difference to efficiency and the welcome for visitors arriving in the city for the first time.

If truth be told the old internal rank fell into chaos at very busy periods (queues in opposing directions was a favourite) and cab drivers complained constantly that Network Rail was happy to take their permit fees but did nothing to manage the facility. Marshals were requested

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NotATrainspott said:

Most of your changes seem to be about adding extra through platforms on the eastern side. I don't really think these are going to be needed, or useful. There will always be an imbalance between the eastern and western sides, with the western side needing more platforms but ones which only need to be 200m long at most. The eastern side will never need as many platforms, but it will need them to be ~265m long to handle the many LDHS services from Newcastle. There isn't an awful lot of space for ~265m platforms on the eastern side - the new Platform 5 and 6 will run all the way up to the bottom of the ramp to be long enough for 10-car 80x services. The ScotRail services will always be better sent into through platforms, as there's a strong incentive to run commuter trains directly through to Haymarket or Edinburgh Park/Gateway for the many jobs there. There could only ever be a small handful of non-full-length but terminating trains on that side into the future.

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i agree there is less of a platform need east side as there are less suburban services ( 3 I can think of ) Interesting comment re extending more services westward beyond Waverley. This already happens for a handful of rush hour services from tweedbank but extending it is seen to impact reliability elsewhere.

route101 said:

What lies underneath Edinburgh Waverley ?

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According to an old school friend who did an investigation as a civil engineer in the early 1990s - there are extensive vaults on multiple levels - with staircases that go down very deep indeed to levels that are locked shut.

Not forgetting the old tales about there being Nuclear Bunker under Waverley with a underground passage to the Palace.

(I understand that there are also considerable vaults underneath the old Caledonian Station on Princes Street too).

Calton Rd/Market St bridge.

This popped up on my Facebook timeline this morning, thought I would post it seeing as it was mentioned the other day.

A footbridge across Waverley Station that was closed 60 years ago should be re-opened as a new route across the city centre, campaigners have urged.

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https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....otbridge-over-waverley-station-roof-1-4714025

Chrism20 said:

Calton Rd/Market St bridge.

This popped up on my Facebook timeline this morning, thought I would post it seeing as it was mentioned the other day.



https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....otbridge-over-waverley-station-roof-1-4714025

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There probably is merit in the idea as part of a larger revamp.

So as I understand it... removing this link was probably illegal in the first place (hence originally it was a "temporary removal") but Network Rail say that putting it back would require a business case? Hmmm.

(I can't see what business case there would be, unless they were to build lots of shops along the bridge...)

There are some interesting ideas here some even thinking in 3 dimensions. However are we not ignoring the elephant in the room? How do the projected increase in passenger numbers get away conveniently to their destinations in the city? Not everyone can take taxis or drive their car away-that would be total chaos in the surrounding streets.

Where is the real vision of public transport system accessing Waverley? Why not bring the trams and electric buses into a mezzanine level from a reconfigured ramp or in an undercroft off Calton Road? I for one am tired of having to walk 440m i.e. a quarter of a mile to get a bus going to the city's southside and find it embarrassing that people with heavy luggage need to drag themselves across Waverley Bridge and along Princes Street to the various bus stops arrayed there.

Yes it needs a lot of investment and some innovative engineering but I don't see that anything less than that will be adequate for the mid 21st Century on these projected figures.

While we are thinking a bit bigger let's have passenger trains that not only run on the South Sub but actually stop at stations there at certain times as a Borders to Fife through service with interchange at Haymarket instead of Waverley....

swaldman said:

I can't see what business case there would be, unless they were to build lots of shops along the bridge.

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Largely that someone else (looking at you Edinburgh City Council) is going to pay for it.

Trackbedjolly said:

let's have passenger trains that not only run on the South Sub but actually stop at stations there at certain times as a Borders to Fife through service with interchange at Haymarket instead of Waverley....

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A train from Tweedbank to Fife via the South Sub would miss both Waverley and Haymarket.

Edinburgh2000 said:

A train from Tweedbank to Fife via the South Sub would miss both Waverley and Haymarket.

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It *could* run into Platform 0 and reverse, only requires crossing *all* the lines though.

najaB said:

It *could* run into Platform 0 and reverse, only requires crossing *all* the lines though.

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Reversing at Haymarket it would not be easy to do operationally perhaps using Platform 4? and could probably only operate in off-peak times but as a way of getting the ball rolling it is not something to think about? One advantage is that it would actually reduce the number of trains moving between Haymarket and Waverley; freeing up a few train paths in this way should be worth a shot! Who knows how many people could actually find it useful to travel direct from the Borders out to Fife, Edinburgh Park and stations to Stirling etc. A lot of market research needs to be done to see if there is a market for such a service even if it does avoid Waverley....

Article in tonight's Evening News suggesting a completely new station similar to the old Princes Street station is probably what is needed.
What was that about going round in circles??!

Trackbedjolly said:

While we are thinking a bit bigger let's have passenger trains that not only run on the South Sub but actually stop at stations there at certain times as a Borders to Fife through service with interchange at Haymarket instead of Waverley....

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There are hundreds of people on trains from the borders wanting to get to the Waverley area. Adding 20 minutes onto their commute time just so that half a dozen people can get to Cameron toll faster isn't going to go down well. Particularly since you could probably still get to Cameron Toll faster by bus from half the stations.

Last Saturday i took a Milngavie service from Platform 7 , is that rare ?

Yeah the bus stops can be a nightmare , figuring out .

route101 said:

Last Saturday i took a Milngavie service from Platform 7 , is that rare ?

Yeah the bus stops can be a nightmare , figuring out .

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That's not that unusual.

Story Contracting has been awarded the contract to complete work at the station following Carillion's liquidation:

Story to deliver works at Edinburgh Waverley
Story Contracting are delighted to announce they have been awarded the contract to deliver “Edinburgh Waverley Platform Works” on behalf of Network Rail.

The project will involve platform extensions, building refurbishments, installation of walkways and escalators and associated work, in preparation for the new longer electric trains that will help transport some of the 30 million passengers each year that use Waverley Station.

Story Contracting will manage this project in line with their normal operating and management procedures. This will involve Story Contracting’s full-time employees managing and working on site with, where needed, a select number of specialist subcontractors. In addition, we have been in discussion with former Carillion staff who are working on the scheme and Story are delighted that they have agreed to join our team as direct employees, bringing with them a wealth of experience and working knowledge of this prestigious project.

Story Contracting continue to invest heavily in their workforce who we employ directly, and not through Umbrella companies, and our team on Waverley will ensure a smooth handover of the project. Story Contracting also have a full-time stakeholder manager who will ensure that station users, businesses and rail companies are kept up to date with the progress of the works and any changes they might experience in service whilst the works are taking place.

The project is anticipated to last for 12 months, and is vital in the continued development of the station.

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https://www.storycontracting.com/story-deliver-works-edinburgh-waverley/

Apologies if mentioned previously, can't seem to find mention of it.