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Should Seat Reservations Be Abolished?

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Ianno87

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Reservations should be charged at a substantial amount (£10 ?), but that charge should be redeemable (from guard - in RTVs ?) if they actually sit in the seat !

What if my reserved seat is occupied by somebody more clearly in need of it, or who would be impractical to move from it (e.g. with kids, luggage), and I'm happy to just sit in an unoccupied seat instead of my own free will? Do I lose my £10 by not creating a fuss?

I still think 'selective' reservations are the way forward, i.e. only avaiable for free for something like (not necessarily exhaustive):
-Disabled Railcard holders, or other proof of disability/need
-Senior Railcards
-Family Railcard issued tickets
-Groups of 3+ travelling together, bought together

Everyone else doesn't get one, or at least has to pay a £5 fee per journey (which at least gets in some extra £££ of the 'company is paying' market)
 
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Bletchleyite

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People are also used to seeing reservations on seats and will probably ignore a "reserved area". Also if people with reservations can sit anywhere in the reserved area then there will be problems such as groups being unable to sit together and people who need table/socket/priority seats not being able to get them.

I think you misunderstand the idea of a reserved area. The idea is simply that seats in that area can be reserved at any time so they don't need to be marked.
 

nw1

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No. On some services (e.g. the Bournemouth to Manchester north of Reading at just about any time of day except before 0800 at a weekend) a reservation is about the only chance you get of a seat.

Certainly don't agree with a premium price for reservations (unless it can actually be refunded by occupying the seat); fares are already expensive enough on long-distance routes like XC and to increase it further for the only realistic way of getting a seat is not good.

In an ideal world, there would be clearer segregation of long distance and local services as they do in some continental countries and the longer-distance ones would be reservation-only; the problem with the above XC route, for instance, is that it simply tries to serve too many places. Compare that to say ICE services in Germany which are much more limited stop with non-stop runs of 50 miles or so commonplace (thinking of Frankfurt to Munich for instance, in which some but certainly not all of the route is on dedicated high-speed track). That said Birmingham to Bristol, with only the Cheltenham stop, is somewhat reminiscent of continental inter-city travel.

The problem is that our network doesn't have the capacity for such a setup. If you had a quad-track Southampton to Winchester, for instance, you could run more SOU-Winchester locals and make Winchester a pick-up-only (northbound) stop on the XCs to move the local journeys onto the local services. Unlikely to ever happen of course though.

Nonetheless perhaps intelligent planning by the operators to try and balance out loads and prevent certain services serving all the busiest stations (as an example, the XCs which terminate at Reading are typically significantly quieter than the Bournemouths for instance as the Bournemouths serve large numbers of busy stations; would swapping the Manchester and Newcastle destinations round, or running the Readings via Coventry and Bournemouths via Solihull help?)
 
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XC victim

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I am a frequent traveller with crosscrountry, but have given up trying to reserve seats as it is such a hassle and I never get the seat.

Firstly when booking a seat with cross country they ask if you want an airline seat, table, aisle, window, window view or power socket. You select what type of seat you want then are given a completely different seat type despite the fact that what you selected was available.

Then you get on the train to find the seat reservation system is not working, or is working but your seat reservation is not shown, or your seat has a different reservation. Or some one far more in need of the seat is already sat in your seat.

Or you end up travelling on a different service due to missed connections or cancelled services. The vast majority of cross country services only have a very small handful of unreserved seats. So invariably I end up standing for 3 / 4 hours on a train I have paid about £100 to travel on.

So I would agreee with the OP and just abolish seat reservations or have at least 50/50 reserved and unreserved seats.
 

Bletchleyite

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Firstly when booking a seat with cross country they ask if you want an airline seat, table, aisle, window, window view or power socket. You select what type of seat you want then are given a completely different seat type despite the fact that what you selected was available.

XC offer seat selection if you book through them - why not do that and pick exactly the seat you want?
 

cuccir

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if all points of information about a train contained (a) the current level of reservations, and (b) predicted loadings based on past experience.

Whatever else we may think of them, Virgin East Coast have introduced this to show reservation levels in carriages on departure boards and it's really useful. As a commuter between Durham and Newcastle I don't think I've stood on a VTEC train since they introduced this last Autumn.

More broadly, I'd support a small £1-£2 fee for reservations (though the 10% of fare suggested by a poster is too high), and a minimum percentage of unreserved seats - though I'd allow TOCs to apply to allow for specific trains to have a higher percentage, if justifiable.
 

neontrix

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No. I don't entirely get the point of this question. People, not just families or large groups want to sit together. The fact that people were even charged to reserve seats is ridiculous. If you're trying to make the trains a more customer-hostile environment then banning reservations or applying a surcharge to them is they way to go about it.

2) Seats that should have a person in it, but doesn't.
3) People standing because there is a mystery person who has reserved a seat.

Seats that are reserved but not occupied are free for anyone to use - if you don't wish to sit there, then don't. But don't complain that someone has exercised their choice to reserve a seat. I personally don't think I've ever seen anyone standing next to a reserved but unoccupied seat, unless the person sitting there has got up to use the loo.

Of course there are cases of bad reservation systems, when they don't show or are double booked. But that is a case for TOCs improving their methods, not abolishing the reservation system altogether.
 

XC victim

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XC offer seat selection if you book through them - why not do that and pick exactly the seat you want?

I used to use this system. You first have to select what type of seat you require. So you select window seat (obviously) then you are allocated an aisle seat for some reason. Then it allows you to change your seat allocation on their seat selector. And when you use that you can see that there are loads of window seats available so why did it not select one if thos to start with?

Then using the seat selector I choose a seat with a clearly marked window view. I then sat for over 3 hours sat in a seat with absolutely no window view whatsoever. So the 20 mins I spent selecting my seat reservation was a complete waste of time (and apparently people are suggesting I spend £10 for the previlage)
 

westv

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Should threads about seat reservations being abolished be abolished? :D
 

PeterC

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Looking at my trusty 1963 Eastern Region timetable I find that seats could be reserved for the sum of two shillings. As this was the average price of a pint when I could just about pass as 18 a few years later it would probably equate to four or five pounds now.
 

GB

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The 5p "bag tax" (an incredibly small sum of money) is about as good evidence as you'll get that actually it does.

I'd say its more to do with people realising its quicker and more convenient to use your own bags rather being down to the cost of the cheap bags.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'd say its more to do with people realising its quicker and more convenient to use your own bags rather being down to the cost of the cheap bags.

People who felt that would have done it anyway. The charge was the motivator to only consume when necessary.
 

Master29

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One big issue I have with GWR particularly is the inability to reserve the particular seat you want. I believe if this was the case there would be far less untaken seats as I have noticed on Virgin. It won`t stop it but does make more sense which is why I disagree and think keeping reservations is needed. I admittedly don`t always use the seat given for this reason and I often sit in a reserved space where the person may get on at the next stop. When or if they ask me to move I always do.
 

Polarbear

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For me, part of the problem with seat reservations in the UK is that many are as a result of Advance Tickets.

Of course, AP tickets are a useful tool used by the TOCs, but I do sometimes wonder why we have a system whereby customers paying less have a reservation, whereas those travelling on more expensive "walk up" tickets are obliged to get a reservation separately.

I'm all in favour of cheap AP tickets, which are quota controlled. I don't however see why that booking has to include a reserved seat? As we know from past threads, a ticket doesn't entitle anyone to a seat-just the travel.

For me, I'd look to remove any automatic seat reservation on the lowest tier AP fares-and make it clear to those booking the cheapest fares that it doesn't include a seat reservation-which can be added on for a small fee.
 

6Gman

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1. Seat reservations should be retained on all mid and long-distance services.
2. Indication of seat reservations should be more consistent (whether that's by label or electronic) and clearer - none of this "may be reserved" nonsense.
3. Seat reservations not taken up within, say, 15 minutes should be forfeited.

Sorted!

Reasons:
1. If I'm travelling from Manchester to Plymouth (e.g.) I want a reasonable prospect of a seat, especially if travelling with elderly family etc.
2. Clear indication of exactly what's reserved and between which points.
3. If a seat is reserved Crewe to Euston and it's still empty as we approach Stafford I'm having it!
 

nw1

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1. Seat reservations should be retained on all mid and long-distance services.
2. Indication of seat reservations should be more consistent (whether that's by label or electronic) and clearer - none of this "may be reserved" nonsense.
3. Seat reservations not taken up within, say, 15 minutes should be forfeited.

Sorted!

Reasons:
1. If I'm travelling from Manchester to Plymouth (e.g.) I want a reasonable prospect of a seat, especially if travelling with elderly family etc.
2. Clear indication of exactly what's reserved and between which points.
3. If a seat is reserved Crewe to Euston and it's still empty as we approach Stafford I'm having it!

I'd give it a bit more than 15 minutes.
Case in point yesterday: had actually reserved two seats from Wolverhampton to Southampton. The train was so overcrowded that it was impossible to access the seats at Wolverhampton as the corridor was filled with standing people. Many got off at Birmingham; the overcrowding was not so chronic beyond Birmingham so it was possible to access the seats. However it took more than 15 mins (about 20 or so) to dawdle from Wolverhampton to Birmingham! Maybe fair point if no-one has claimed the seats two stops down the line, e.g. International in this case.
 

bussnapperwm

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All trains should have compulsory reservations during the peaks, weekends, school holidays and over Christmas.

Although it'd be fun on the Stourbridge Town branch if that happened
 

A Challenge

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You can sit anywhere (but still have reservations marked), and if someone comes up with a reservation and you're there you move.

What do you think?
 

bramling

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I see it so many times:

1) people saying "...but I can get on any train" (after reserving a seat on a specific train).
2) Seats that should have a person in it, but doesn't.
3) People standing because there is a mystery person who has reserved a seat.

Like WMR, tickes can be printed with a time of the train, but should individual seat reservations be abolished?
Yes, it'll perhaps be rubbish for those travelling in a large group (families and such) but maybe seats can be reserved for groups of 4 or more only.

I just can't help but think it's a waste of time both in administration to the paper the reservations are printed on - and in many cases it takes so long to download reservations that many trains leave London without them anyway.

As they are at the moment, just abolish reservations IMO. They cause more problems than they solve - too many reserved seats not taken up, too often reservations not laid out, and in too many cases unable to select seat of one's choice. I also object to the way in practice those with the most expensive tickets don't get a reservation whilst those with the cheap advance tickets do. Also on regional services like TransPennine Express the train just doesn't have enough capacity for reservations.

I'd be happy for reservations to apply if the above issues could be resolved.
 

Master29

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All trains should have compulsory reservations during the peaks, weekends, school holidays and over Christmas.

Although it'd be fun on the Stourbridge Town branch if that happened

All trains??? By that do you mean suburban services? Can you imagine one stop TfL services with a reservation.

As they are at the moment, just abolish reservations IMO. They cause more problems than they solve - too many reserved seats not taken up, too often reservations not laid out, and in too many cases unable to select seat of one's choice. I also object to the way in practice those with the most expensive tickets don't get a reservation whilst those with the cheap advance tickets do. Also on regional services like TransPennine Express the train just doesn't have enough capacity for reservations.

I'd be happy for reservations to apply if the above issues could be resolved.
I doubt that most TOC`s would ever bother with that.
 

yorksrob

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For me, part of the problem with seat reservations in the UK is that many are as a result of Advance Tickets.

Of course, AP tickets are a useful tool used by the TOCs, but I do sometimes wonder why we have a system whereby customers paying less have a reservation, whereas those travelling on more expensive "walk up" tickets are obliged to get a reservation separately.

I'm all in favour of cheap AP tickets, which are quota controlled. I don't however see why that booking has to include a reserved seat? As we know from past threads, a ticket doesn't entitle anyone to a seat-just the travel.

For me, I'd look to remove any automatic seat reservation on the lowest tier AP fares-and make it clear to those booking the cheapest fares that it doesn't include a seat reservation-which can be added on for a small fee.

I agree, but just wouldn't bother adding a fee. Just provide reservations to those who request them, rather than churning them out for everyone with an AP.
 

duffield

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In an ideal world, there would be clearer segregation of long distance and local services as they do in some continental countries and the longer-distance ones would be reservation-only;

It's not my ideal world! On a long distance reservation-only train with (say) 8-12 coaches, you might be turning away 50-100 people who are prepared to stand, and at least some of them would be able to sit anyhow due to no shows, then on (say) a typical service away from London the rest would get to sit after the first stop or two.
I want the flexibility to get on just about any train at any time - in return for that I fully accept there is a good chance I will have to stand if it's at a busy time.
 

noddingdonkey

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Or we could just ensure that there is sufficient capacity for paying customers to get a seat without having to jump through hoops.

As much as I understand that it's not that simple, the underlying issue is that seat reservations are only a thing because the network doesn't have sufficient capacity. Anything other than increasing capacity is just a sticking plaster.
 

aylesbury

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On long journeys a reserved seat is essential and doing away with this system is a retrograde step.
 

edwin_m

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I also object to the way in practice those with the most expensive tickets don't get a reservation whilst those with the cheap advance tickets do.
I really don't understand this objection. People with an expensive ticket can also have a free reservation if they wish, but only on one of the possible trains the ticket is valid on. Are you suggesting that those people should be able to get a reservation on every train their ticket is valid on?

I agree, but just wouldn't bother adding a fee. Just provide reservations to those who request them, rather than churning them out for everyone with an AP.
If the AP is only valid on one train and a free reservation on that train is offered then why would anyone turn it down?

I think you misunderstand the idea of a reserved area. The idea is simply that seats in that area can be reserved at any time so they don't need to be marked.
Isn't that what XC do with "this seat may be reserved" which changes to more specific information if someone reserves it? I don't really see a problem with that as long as there are enough seats guaranteed not to be reserved, and the operator makes it clear which part of the train these are located in.

Altough I haven't gone back to check what the previous poster intended, I interpreted it as the "Amtrak system" of reservations not being seat-specific but anyone with a reservation being able to sit anywhere in that area. From my recollections of Amtrak I know this creates problems with groups not being able to travel together unless the crew (who are more numerous than in the UK so easier to find) move someone to a different seat.
 

Matt_pool

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On long distance inter city trains in Germany you pay €4.50 to reserve a seat in second class and this includes all of your connecting trains.

Your seat reservation is only valid until 15 mins after departure which is more than enough time to find your seat unless you got into the wrong carriage at the opposite end of the train.

Last couple of times I've travelled on inter city trains in Germany I haven't bothered with reservations and have always managed to find a seat, which are a lot more comfortable than seats on UK trains, have plenty of legroom, and align with the windows! ;)
 

Parallel

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I would like some change to reservations. Firstly, I think on trains there are often too many reservations. I think it should be more of a 50-50 split, especially on busy trains. People don’t always know weeks in advance when they’re going to travel so buy on the day and then have to stand the whole way.

Maybe it should be changed for Advance fares so they don’t automatically give out a reservation with each advance fare and instead just reserve a ‘space’ on the train like SWT/SWR. I think there should be a way of booking a seat reservation still though, maybe not just by giving them out though.

I personally don’t like the seat reservation system and find they cause too much conflict - if it was up to me, I’d abolish the whole thing except for things like the Eurostar etc but I appreciate that many want/like them.
 

westv

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Looking at my trusty 1963 Eastern Region timetable I find that seats could be reserved for the sum of two shillings. As this was the average price of a pint when I could just about pass as 18 a few years later it would probably equate to four or five pounds now.
And the fare was how much?
 

takno

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You can sit anywhere (but still have reservations marked), and if someone comes up with a reservation and you're there you move.

What do you think?
I think that's exactly what I do. Seems fairly much the norm for anyone who travels regularly without a reservation.
 

yorksrob

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If the AP is only valid on one train and a free reservation on that train is offered then why would anyone turn it down?

But you have to offer it in the first place for someone to turn it down. Why offer it. InterCity travellers on non-AP tickets have the option of requesting a reservation but they don't all do.
 
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