East Midlands Franchise 2019-

Bletchleyite · 7 Jun 2018

mallard said:
All new rolling stock (including intercity stock) is required to be DOO-ready. DOO intercity services are obviously a terrible idea, so hopefully this is a mistake

The specification is explicitly calling for bi-modes with diesel performance matching a 222. Good luck with that...

DOO capability is a standard thing for all new stock even if not used as such. I'd be interested to see a bid based on multifunction on-board stewards - people who don't do the doors but are safety trained and are there to sell refreshments etc as well as check/sell tickets where applicable.

Re bi-modes, 222s are *heavy*. A new build should be able to give that weight including a transformer and pantograph - and that's all that would need adding to turn a 222 into a bi-mode.

RailUK Forums

ainsworth74 · 7 Jun 2018

Please use the thread that can be found here to discuss changes to the Liverpool to Norwich service.

Many thanks,
ainsworth74

pemma · 7 Jun 2018

mallard said:
The specifications for service frequency bear no relation to the ORR's estimates of station usage (apparently the ~300,000 passengers per year at EMD need the same level of service as the ~1,300,000 at LBO and that's less than what the ~1,000,000 at Kettering apparently need).

That's pretty much the case for every operator. The service level depends on the number of passengers using the route (not a particular station) and whether a station gets all services stopping there or only some depends on demand at that station.

The Ham · 7 Jun 2018

Something that is in there, which I've not seen other pick up is:

improving strategic east to west connectivity, which could include enhancements to the Derby – Crewe service to reduce journey times between principal stations and/or extension of this service to destinations beyond Derby.

mallard · 7 Jun 2018

jcollins said:
That's pretty much the case for every operator. The service level depends on the number of passengers using the route (not a particular station) and whether a station gets all services stopping there or only some depends on demand at that station.

Sure, but is there a reason why some of the EMD stops couldn't be moved to LBO? The stations are adjacent with no junctions between them, so I can't see it having much effect on service timings. Even something as simple as having the stops on the Nottingham "fasts" alternate between EMD and LBO rather than being all EMD would help a great deal.

SPADTrap · 7 Jun 2018

Is there any hint on stock for the Corby?

OxtedSignaller · 7 Jun 2018

Bletchleyite said:
DOO capability is a standard thing for all new stock even if not used as such. I'd be interested to see a bid based on multifunction on-board stewards - people who don't do the doors but are safety trained and are there to sell refreshments etc as well as check/sell tickets where applicable.

Re bi-modes, 222s are *heavy*. A new build should be able to give that weight including a transformer and pantograph - and that's all that would need adding to turn a 222 into a bi-mode.

Based on what we’ve seen with recent franchises it’s probably a strong possibility. I know there was an issue not that long ago in regards to DOO Dispatch from St Pancras so it may be that if new stock was procured it would be run in DOO mode. The MML is already DOO up to Bedford anyway and the main stations have Dispatchers anyway.

KashmireHawker · 7 Jun 2018

Franchise to commence on Sunday August 18th 2019 - 4 weeks before West Coast Partnership begins

sprinterguy · 7 Jun 2018

Speedbird787 said:
Is there any hint on stock for the Corby?

Other than them being EMUs (Unless there's detail elsewhere that I've not found), it's not specific:

5.9.6 ...bidders are required to provide rolling stock to operate services between London St Pancras and Corby in accordance with the applicable Train Service Requirement. This rolling stock must be an electric multiple unit and operating by no later than December 2020 when the necessary electrification infrastructure will be available. Bidders must ensure that the rolling stock provides a level of passenger comfort and amenity that is 82 identified by stakeholders, including such things as an appropriate mix of tables, at seat power, appropriate luggage space and appropriate door configurations for access/egress of passengers.

mallard · 7 Jun 2018

sprinterguy said:
Other than them being EMUs (Unless there's detail elsewhere that I've not found), it's not specific:

If they're required in-service by December 2020, with the franchise award in March/April 2019, new-build is quite unlikely.

4-SUB 4732 · 7 Jun 2018

It appears the Norwich to Nottingham will also route via Melton Mowbray, but not via Leicester? So fast Melton to East Mids/Loughborough?

Bletchleyite · 7 Jun 2018

mallard said:
If they're required in-service by December 2020, with the franchise award in March/April 2019, new-build is quite unlikely.

The ex-Stansted Express EMUs would seem perfect and will be available on that kind of timescale.

YorkshireBear · 7 Jun 2018

Bletchleyite said:
The ex-Stansted Express EMUs would seem perfect and will be available on that kind of timescale.

Yeah certainly with timescales its saying use existing stock. Even if new build comes in in the future. We are starting to see where all this spare stock is going to end up.

Qwerty133 · 7 Jun 2018

The guards really don't help themselves on the midland mainline. More often than not they don't leave first class any point north of Leicester.
DOO with on board staff who were actually visible and trained in even the very basics would be an improvement on the current situation in the majority of cases.
Seems to confirm that they'll be little to no investment into the local side which is where the money is actually needed so it looks like a disappointing ITT overall.

SPADTrap · 7 Jun 2018

Bletchleyite said:
The ex-Stansted Express EMUs would seem perfect and will be available on that kind of timescale.

Will they? With the Brampton difficulties at GA I wouldn't be so sure.

43074 · 7 Jun 2018

There appear to be hourly services specified on the Lincoln to Peterborough, Doncaster and Grimsby routes from December 2021 which is some good news in what is otherwise a fairly underwhelming ITT: I do think it's a pity the XC 170 routes won't be moving over, which especially with Nottingham to Liverpool transferring away, the controversy over removing Intercity calls in Northants, an aging local fleet and the HST compliance issue don't combine to make it a particularly attractive business proposition really.

cle · 7 Jun 2018

Yep there isn’t much to get excited about.

I’d hope that a TOC might see some value in exploring the Derby-Stoke route as a means to add some more interesting services... it’s a ‘cross country’ axis which is very underused. Even just extending the Norwich-Nottingham to Crewe might be appealing for some. Adds Derby and Stoke and easy Liverpool and Manchester connections at Stoke and Crewe, plus many others including Chester/North Wales. It could supplement the local service and run two hourly, perhaps.

cactustwirly · 7 Jun 2018

Hopefully when the Liverpool - Norwich gets transferred away, there is a cascade of 158s + addition of the ATW ones, so the local fleet is wholly 158s.

I'd also like to see all of the 'Nottingham area' stations get a clockface hourly service (except Elton & Orston) and Sunday services.
In terms of Lincolnshire I'd give the smaller stations on the Skegness line a clockface 1tp2h service & convert them to request stops. The bigger stations keep their hourly service.
The other stations should get an hourly clockface, 7 day service.

Qwerty133 · 7 Jun 2018

43074 said:
There appear to be hourly services specified on the Lincoln to Peterborough, Doncaster and Grimsby routes from December 2021 which is some good news in what is otherwise a fairly underwhelming ITT: I do think it's a pity the XC 170 routes won't be moving over, which especially with Nottingham to Liverpool transferring away, the controversy over removing Intercity calls in Northants, an aging local fleet and the HST compliance issue don't combine to make it a particularly attractive business proposition really.

I was always against the XC routes transferring to EMT so thats one little bit of good news. I have always felt that the WM franchise would be a better fit with an existing train crew depot and new street (while neither WM or EMT have one at Leicester) and shared maintenance facilities for the 170s.

Grimsby town · 7 Jun 2018

Good to see that the Grimsby service is going Hourly and is going to run through to at least Nottingham. Running the trains from Grimsby to Newark seems pretty pointless once the London to Lincoln service begins.

ag51ruk · 7 Jun 2018

The TSR2 Sunday schedule shows an enhanced Derby - Crewe service starting at 09.00, which is a welcome change from the current first train at around 14.30 - would need double shifts for the boxes/crossings between Derby and Stoke, or the long promised resignalling and transfer to Derby ROC

cactustwirly · 7 Jun 2018

Grimsby town said:
Good to see that the Grimsby service is going Hourly and is going to run through to at least Nottingham. Running the trains from Grimsby to Newark seems pretty pointless once the London to Lincoln service begins.

But does that mean the existing Lincoln - Leicester stopper is cut back to Nottingham?

ChiefPlanner · 7 Jun 2018

Bletchleyite said:
The ex-Stansted Express EMUs would seem perfect and will be available on that kind of timescale.

I agree - specially went on a 379 today from the Airport to London (diverted via Stratford for other reasons) - comfortable , spacious , clean , comfy seats , tables , good luggage areas , armrests, excellent free WiFi - very acceptable I would think. For the right price......

43074 · 7 Jun 2018

cactustwirly said:
But does that mean the existing Lincoln - Leicester stopper is cut back to Nottingham?

No reason why it should be, there still needs to be 2tph to East Mids Parkway and Loughborough from Nottingham, the Ivanhoe service (or an equivalent ''non London'' service) is a good way of providing part of that without putting too many stops in the London trains.

cactustwirly · 7 Jun 2018

43074 said:
No reason why it should be, there still needs to be 2tph to East Mids Parkway and Loughborough from Nottingham, the Ivanhoe service (or an equivalent ''non London'' service) is a good way of providing part of that without putting too many stops in the London trains.

I meant cut back in the other direction, is running Leicester - Nottingham instead of Lincoln, as I'd assume the new Grimsby - Nottingham service gets that path.

Chester1 · 7 Jun 2018

cactustwirly said:
Hopefully when the Liverpool - Norwich gets transferred away, there is a cascade of 158s + addition of the ATW ones, so the local fleet is wholly 158s.

I'd also like to see all of the 'Nottingham area' stations get a clockface hourly service (except Elton & Orston) and Sunday services.
In terms of Lincolnshire I'd give the smaller stations on the Skegness line a clockface 1tp2h service & convert them to request stops. The bigger stations keep their hourly service.
The other stations should get an hourly clockface, 7 day service.

I agree about the 158s. Cutting back the Liverpool service saves 12 units + spares which would more than componsate for replacing 17 x 153s and 15 x 156s with 24 W&B 158s. It would be a big improvement for routes served by 153s! Having a regional fleet of 49 x 158s would be simpler to manage and with an upgrade they would be good for the duration of the franchise. The alternative would be 196s which would be unnecessary and leave less money to pay for the expensive new intercity fleet.

43074 · 7 Jun 2018

cactustwirly said:
I meant cut back in the other direction, is running Leicester - Nottingham instead of Lincoln, as I'd assume the new Grimsby - Nottingham service gets that path.

The path could still be the same across Nottingham - not sure if you're using the word in the right way - but it all depends what bidders propose in terms of joining routes across Nottingham and more crucially paths over the Newark Flat Crossing. Simply extending the Leicester to Lincoln service to Grimsby looks like it would be a compliant proposal as far as DfT are concerned though, and saves finding new paths over the flat crossing. Plus if you're travelling from Leicester it's often quicker to get a Mainline service to Nottingham and change for the same Lincoln service there, I don't think it matters too much either way.

RupertW · 7 Jun 2018

While improvements to the Sunday service in general are welcome, it's disappointing to see that even post-2021 Sheffield and Nottingham only have one train per hour (all stops) specified on Sundays for a significant part of the day,

dk1 · 7 Jun 2018

ashworth said:
Taking away Nottingham to Liverpool and not adding any CrossCountry, or any other routes, leaves the new East Midlands Franchise quite a small operation away from the MML with mainly secondary and rural routes especially in Lincolnshire. Even some of these routes are very seasonable especially Nottingham to Skegness and even Nottingham to Norwich can be quiet off peak in the winter.

There is nothing very seasonal about the Peterborough-Norwich section. It can be very busy throughout the year & often more so term time with students to/from the UEA.

tbtc · 7 Jun 2018

4-SUB 4732 said:
It appears the Norwich to Nottingham will also route via Melton Mowbray, but not via Leicester? So fast Melton to East Mids/Loughborough?

Interesting - back to the old BR route then.

That's a loss for Grantham - Nottingham, but at least means less pressure on the ECML north of Peterborough (a 90mph DMU can't be easy to path there).

RupertW said:
While improvements to the Sunday service in general are welcome, it's disappointing to see that even post-2021 Sheffield and Nottingham only have one train per hour (all stops) specified on Sundays for a significant part of the day,

Shame - this feels a bit like the "new" Northern franchise, with the riches showered on the fringe services and little benefit to the "core". No improvement on InterCity services, but lots more services from Lincoln to Doncaster (where an irregular 153 generally seems to cope).

Sunday services on the InterCity services are a bit "cosy" and a bit slow... but no end in sight.

East Midlands Franchise 2019-

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