East Midlands Franchise 2019-

[yorksrob]

Stagecoach running EMT already do what you are afraid Arriva might do (and what XC do) if they got the EMT franchise - i.e. ruunning short trains and keeping longer trains in the sidings. The sidings at Cricklewood are full of HST's and five and seven car Meridians for much of the day during weekdays, yet passengers are crammed in to four or five car Meridians on the off peak semi fast St Pancras - Nottingham/Sheffield services, which are often full and standing. It is even worse on a Sunday when there is only one train an hour to Nottingham and Sheffield for much of the day covering all stops and often only formed or four or five car Meridians, resulting in some really appalling overcrowding. So I can't really see how much worse it could get under Arriva (or anyone else). Yes, I know it's all about money and cutting down on leasing costs etc.. but it's terrible customer service and passengers using EMT have been getting a raw deal under Stagecoach for many years. Will be glad to see the back of them.

I've seen Northern do this a fair few times.

 

[yorksrob]

They do. But they considering the stock they have that can’t really happen. But some improvements have taken place as we know Newark - Matlock. As I said in my previous post they try - CT didn’t. I am hoping the new franchise brings a northern style revolution. If it uses 15x I don’t care. Clockface timetables and decent connections is what I want. Be lovely to see Lincoln get a direct service to Birmingham back but I will only believe those rumours when I see them in a bid document.

Yes, they could do with some stock from somewhere.

 

[Chrisgr31]

No, they seemed fairly decent to me. Some good pricing. Stations and trains nicely kept. Innovation with the introduction of Ashford - Brighton.

Then again, they did follow Connex which wasn't that good.

Southern were also responsible for the huge increase in passenger numbers on the Uckfield line, which in fact was too successful for its own good. Passenger numbers increased so much additional stock was needed. That stock has proved less reliable and it appears (from on board experience) passenger numbers have declined.

The current Southern/GTR franchise is obviously a management contract and I think things are getting better. Certainly I have seen less subject to delay and cancellation recently. However they are subject to lots of criticism on social media where I think it can be difficult t see the wood for the trees, with many serial complainers about Southern retweeting stuff.

Whether this is relevant to the East Midlands franchise I am not sure! My suspicion is that cost is the biggest driver at the DfT so effectively the cheapest option wins, which lives little room for additional investment, and means staffing in Control etc is an issue meaning when it goes wrong there are limited staff to resolve it.

 

[yorksrob]

Southern were also responsible for the huge increase in passenger numbers on the Uckfield line, which in fact was too successful for its own good. Passenger numbers increased so much additional stock was needed. That stock has proved less reliable and it appears (from on board experience) passenger numbers have declined.

As a reasonably frequent traveller on it, I think it's certainly fair to say that Ashford - Brighton has been a victim of it's own success !

In terms of relevance to EMT, I can imagine that there are probably similar issues of subdued demand on some of it's rural routes.

 

[Failed Unit]

As a reasonably frequent traveller on it, I think it's certainly fair to say that Ashford - Brighton has been a victim of it's own success !

In terms of relevance to EMT, I can imagine that there are probably similar issues of subdued demand on some of it's rural routes.

Just a bit. I know Lincolnshire best.

Grimsby - Newark.
Random timetable roughly 2 hourly but with larger gaps. Mainly in the travel to work times. Impossible to commute and some poor connections at Lincoln for Nottingham and Newark for ECML. Overcrowded. I am sure a decent service will up numbers as had happened on FGW branches.

Peterborough- Lincoln
Open for short period. Impossible to commute from north - Peterborough and Spalding- Lincoln.

Doncaster - Lincoln
They run trains - not really when people want them just when the stock isn’t needed elsewhere.

Derby - Crewe
Overcrowded and missing the previous direct train to Nottingham. Not sure how good connections are.

Hopefully the new franchise will fix these and other problems. But I know overcrowding is everywhere. In a rural area people just drive. Going into London the tolerate it more.

 

[bunnahabhain]

As long as we keep a PNB point at Spalding I'll be happy, Sheddy's chippy and Ghurka Oven would go out of business otherwise!

 

[Robertj21a]

By all means improve the services, increase the trains, and please all the people. But leave it with Stagecoach.

 

[cactustwirly]

By all means improve the services, increase the trains, and please all the people. But leave it with Stagecoach.

Why?
Stagecoach have done jack all to improve the service, and the trains are in quite a state internally.
It's time for a fresh franchisee to improve the service (like Abellio)

 

[Robertj21a]

Why?
Stagecoach have done jack all to improve the service, and the trains are in quite a state internally.
It's time for a fresh franchisee to improve the service (like Abellio)

In my experience they are the most professional operator (trains or buses) and can be relied upon to provide a good service in line with their franchise requirements.

 

[cactustwirly]

In my experience they are the most professional operator (trains or buses) and can be relied upon to provide a good service in line with their franchise requirements.

From my experience traveling with EMT, the service is very mediocre, and they aren't as professional as other TOCs.
IMO Abellio offer a better all round service.

 

[londonmidland]

EMT's InterCity services are some of the best in the country in terms of value and comfort and their Liverpool-Nottingham route is generally the best way to get across the Pennines in my experience.

By the sounds of things their local services need a bit of a step change in provision admittedly.

Is the rumour of TransPennine Express taking over the service from Liverpool to Nottingham still floating around?

A positive point would be the introduction of First Class but obviously a 3 car 185 has quite a lot less seats than a 4 car 158. I’m not sure if platform lengths would allow a six car 185?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is the rumour of TransPennine Express taking over the service from Liverpool to Nottingham still floating around?

"Rumour" as in DfT keep proposing it? I expect we'll know for sure when the ITT comes out.

 

[The Ham]

"Rumour" as in DfT keep proposing it? I expect we'll know for sure when the ITT comes out.

It looks like the East Midlands ITT is due to be published this month (even though the franchise timetable had it as last month):


https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/first/trenitalia-withdraws-east-midlands-bid

The Invitation to Tender (ITT) for East Midlands is due to be issued in late April and should be published in May.

 

[HH]

From my experience traveling with EMT, the service is very mediocre, and they aren't as professional as other TOCs.
IMO Abellio offer a better all round service.

As someone who has seen both from the inside, I'd say that both have their strengths and weaknesses, but if I wanted a safer pair of hands I'd choose Abellio. That's simply because they actually have doing a good job at the heart of the company philosophy, whereas Stagecoach are largely profit driven.

 

[SPADTrap]

As someone who has seen both from the inside, I'd say that both have their strengths and weaknesses, but if I wanted a safer pair of hands I'd choose Abellio. That's simply because they actually have doing a good job at the heart of the company philosophy, whereas Stagecoach are largely profit driven.

Having worked at an Abellio franchise I can safely say from an ethos and company philosophy point of view and attitude to safety, they were the worst of the three companies I've worked for, by an incredible margin. So bad infact I took my services elsewhere based upon that alone. And don't even begin to talk about profit/costs at Abellio.

 

[yorksrob]

Is the rumour of TransPennine Express taking over the service from Liverpool to Nottingham still floating around?

A positive point would be the introduction of First Class but obviously a 3 car 185 has quite a lot less seats than a 4 car 158. I’m not sure if platform lengths would allow a six car 185?

I wouldn't know about that sort of thing. Better sticking with the 158's for the time being as They do an amazing job.

 

[whhistle]

In my experience they are the most professional operator (trains or buses) and can be relied upon to provide a good service in line with their franchise requirements.

Yes, but they're very... I can't think of the word.
Everything revolves around the franchise agreement, like it's life or death.

If a ticket office opens 1 minute after the scheduled opening time at a tiny rural station like Oakham, it's like the end of the world has come and the government is going to turn up and strip them of the franchise! Yes, certain things should be kept to account but in this example, it doesn't require such an overreaction.

Their offering isn't that great and some of their media comes across as trying, desperately to be more Virgin, but the humour just isn't there. For some, this is relief but they could be a bit happier as a company.

There's lots of other inner workings of the company that I simply don't understand and rarely see them in rail media, while GWR for example always have a drip feed of things they're doing or investiment in their staff. Don't see anything like this with EMT.

 

[HH]

Having worked at an Abellio franchise I can safely say from an ethos and company philosophy point of view and attitude to safety, they were the worst of the three companies I've worked for, by an incredible margin. So bad infact I took my services elsewhere based upon that alone. And don't even begin to talk about profit/costs at Abellio.

Which franchise was that? Attitude to safety of both is inferior to First (say), in my experience, but there are variations TOC to TOC.

 

[317 forever]

Wouldn't Arriva present competition issues at the Northern end? If XC and Northern are already with Arriva, adding EMT would mean places such as Chesterfield would have 3 Arriva TOCs, and going from Chesterfield - Sheffield would have a choice 3 TOCs, all Arriva. Shame about First and Abellio, would have much prefered either of those myself.

Admittedly Manchester - Stockport is already served by 3 Arriva franchises: Arriva Trains Wales, Cross Country and Northern. Mind you, this line also has East Midlands Trains, TransPennine Express and Virgin Trains. Admittedly, I understand that Virgin only encourage Stockport for boarding southbound and alighting northbound.

 

[323235]

Can any of the big transport giants really run a franchise well if funding and money is in short supply? It is an incredibly challenging job.

Old Northern wasn't great at the start due to the 0% growth deal but got better thanks to additional funding for extra trains and as they refreshed interiors.

CrossCountry has been very poor under Arriva because there has been no real capacity improvements over the whole franchise - just tinkering at the edges.

Virgin Trains East Coast have run into finance issues.

I feel that East Midlands Trains did a good job with train lengths and refurbishments in early years but now things have gone stale , they are on a direct award and the DfT are not hurrying to address any urgent issues before a new franchise is let, as you'd expect really.

 

[DanTrain]

Admittedly Manchester - Stockport is already served by 3 Arriva franchises: Arriva Trains Wales, Cross Country and Northern. Mind you, this line also has East Midlands Trains, TransPennine Express and Virgin Trains. Admittedly, I understand that Virgin only encourage Stockport for boarding southbound and alighting northbound.

Yes, but that still leaves TPE and EMT. My point is there would be no alternative (other than a Stagecoach bus service perhaps). The same would go for Notts and Derby stations, which would become Arriva-only.

 

[WillPS]

Yes, but that still leaves TPE and EMT. My point is there would be no alternative (other than a Stagecoach bus service perhaps). The same would go for Notts and Derby stations, which would become Arriva-only.

Like Nottingham was NX-only from privatisation until the end of 2007?

It's a non-issue. On-rail competition doesn't exist for the majority of railway journies.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Yes, but that still leaves TPE and EMT. My point is there would be no alternative (other than a Stagecoach bus service perhaps). The same would go for Notts and Derby stations, which would become Arriva-only.

I think that would still be within competition regulations.

 

[DanTrain]

Like Nottingham was NX-only from privatisation until the end of 2007?

It's a non-issue. On-rail competition doesn't exist for the majority of railway journies.

I think that would still be within competition regulations.

Fair point - that would make sense - I don't really know how these competition rules work, thanks

 

[edwin_m]

The competition authorities seem to be relaxed about rail monopolies between pairs of cities but they seem to wake up when a rail route duplicates a bus or coach route provided by the future franchisee. So for example National Express was forced to sell Scottish Citylink on being awarded the Scotrail franchise, and was also investigated in relation to MML. This may be because there is regulation of rail franchises by DfT and ORR but coaches and (commercial) buses have no other economic regulation.

 

[Kier]

I think the Nottingham to London service is poor compared to the Sheffield to London.

It is simply not right that Sheffield and Derby get two services which run non stop from Leicester to London whilst neither of the Nottingham services do. The stopping service is painful to use - slow and crowded on a 4 or 5 car Meridian. The HST simply does not need to stop at Market Harborough.

I think the new franchise should include a Nottingham in 90 minutes service.

 

[Mollman]

I feel that the Welsh Franchise announcement has had the following effects on rolling stock options the future EM franchise:
- Reduced the number of 170s available but not 156s
- Put 'up for grabs' 158s and 175s - Liverpool to Notts could be 3x 2 car 158s or 1x 2 car & 1x 3 car 175s with 2 coaches carrying on to Norwich
- Heavily reduced capacity at the CAF facility in Newport meaning possible longer lead times or overseas build

 

[Kneedown]

It's still up in the air as to whether Liverpool will be a part of the new franchise, and with Anglia, Northern and Wales getting brand new stock I think the good people of the East Midlands will feel justifiably aggrieved if additional capacity meant just more clapped out Sprinters. Bidders beware!

 

[The Ham]

It's still up in the air as to whether Liverpool will be a part of the new franchise, and with Anglia, Northern and Wales getting brand new stock I think the good people of the East Midlands will feel justifiably aggrieved if additional capacity meant just more clapped out Sprinters. Bidders beware!

Well it's fine as there'll be "new" units just like the Welsh will be getting in the firm of 230's so it won't be all clapped out Sprinters!!!

 

[43055]

With the welsh franchise getting rid of the 175's and 158's this could be possible in the next franchise:

Mainline:
222's remain and HST's get reformed with MK4's as 2+8 for all 11 sets.
110 or even 125 max EMU for Corby with the option for 12 car units if capacity allows - possibly 350 or 379 (If they could be upgraded to 110 operation)

Local/Regional
153, 156 - aim to reduce/replace by the end of the franchise
158 - additional 24 sets from the welsh francise
175 - gains from the welsh francise

The 175s can replace the 158 on Liverpool - Norwich's with 2 and 3 car sets capacity can be increased with the option of running up to 6 car trains and all through trains can be 3 coaches.

The 158's can replace the 153's and 156's and with 50 sets available capacity could be increase on most services but also additional services could operate for example a clock face timetable in Lincolnshire and could provide additional services in rush hour or even new services/routes altogether.