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Future of Wrexham-Bidston line, inc. possible franchise swap etc.

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kieron

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I believe his point simply is that the network operates in an unfinished state. Which meaningless county the stations lie in can needlessly complicate the process of rectifying that.
It could be. When I think of the investment in the Halton Curve, the options which were given for partial electrification of the Wrexham-Bidston line, or the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority's 2017 Long Term Rail Strategy, I don't get the impression that the locations of political boundaries play a major role in Merseytravel's thinking. Not least because they talk to other authorities.

I don't think a transport network can ever be finished, though, not least because the demands on it will never stop changing.
 
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Statto

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And perhaps also an issue if sufficient track capacity to be able to turn the trains at Birkenhead North without stymmying through services. But if these problems can be overcome, the attractiveness of journeys from Liverpool / Birkenhead using the Wrexham line would increase greatly.

Track capacity is not a problem at Birkenhead North, frequency of the trains at Birkenhead North during the day is 5 to 10 minutes[16 tph] in both directions, however by strange quirk the way the trains are timmed is that theres a 1 minute gap between them in both directions, & platform 1 is rarely used, mostly for the occasional ECS movement, but the main problem is that Borderlines would need an extra unit, Bidston-Wrexham is 58 minute journey time on an hourly headway.
 

jamesst

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Track capacity is not a problem at Birkenhead North, frequency of the trains at Birkenhead North during the day is 5 to 10 minutes[16 tph] in both directions, however by strange quirk the way the trains are timmed is that theres a 1 minute gap between them in both directions, & platform 1 is rarely used, mostly for the occasional ECS movement, but the main problem is that Borderlines would need an extra unit, Bidston-Wrexham is 58 minute journey time on an hourly headway.

It would be a bit of a pain using Birkenhead North to be honest. The back platform is actually used quite frequently during the day for transferring stocks between depots. Plus the points that the Wrexham service formerly used were removed meaning services would have to cross in between the frequent Merseyrail services.
 

ivanhoe

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It seems to me that if I were living in say Heswall or Neston, the bus services offered by Arriva and Stagecoach would offer a more attractive option of travelling on decent spec vehicles than having to change whether it be Bidston or Birkenhead North. To me, Deeside and Wrexham should be leading the fight for any improvement on this line and if the best you can offer is a change at Birkenhead North, then it's going to be a long battle. Clearly given the current half hourly services on the buses and their reasonable loads, it's going to be a long time before any electrification beyond Bidston, is going to happen. Indeed the Halton Curve will be Wrexham's future to Liverpool.Now getting the 230's around the loop is a game changer.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think even getting them to James St Platform 2 would be a game changer, particularly given how the centre of gravity of Liverpool city centre is, with recent developments, much nearer there than it was.

It's not accessible at the moment, but adding a lift of some sort is probably cheap in the scheme of things.
 

Mutant Lemming

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I think even getting them to James St Platform 2 would be a game changer, particularly given how the centre of gravity of Liverpool city centre is, with recent developments, much nearer there than it was.

It's not accessible at the moment, but adding a lift of some sort is probably cheap in the scheme of things.

What's to stop them running on to Central from platform 2 ?
 

B&I

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That's a shame probably needed more now than ever. As a Liverpool Airport link will be, a much more logical termination point for Merseyrail.


Time for pipedreams:

1. New cross-Mersey link from around Allerton via airport station to Chester, probably linking to high-speed line towards Crewe

2. Loop from LNWR & CLC lines through airport to South Parkway / Garston, linked at CLC end to re-opened outer loop (using current Northern Line Cressington-Litherland as its western section)

3. Elevated US style people mover from upper level bridge at South Parkway to departures floor at airport.

Number 3 above would probably be the most cost-effective solution to a proper airport rail link, but remains a pipe dream while Peel Airports make so much from parking and drop off charges
 

notlob.divad

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What's to stop them running on to Central from platform 2 ?
If you mean the stock interchange line, it isn't permitted for passenger workings, it is steep, slow and would cause havoc due to being yet another train terminating from the North and clogging up the platforms.
 

Holly

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Time for pipedreams:
3. Elevated US style people mover from upper level bridge at South Parkway to departures floor at airport.
Number 3 above would probably be the most cost-effective solution to a proper airport rail link, but remains a pipe dream while Peel Airports make so much from parking and drop off charges
Yes, like the one at Oakland Airport, California.

It had not occurred to me that Peel's ripoff profits from airport parking and drop off charges were the major obstacle to progress. But I think you have hit the nail on the head. Thank you.
 

Gareth

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The Birkenhead North plan needed additional rolling stock.
Cutting back to Bidston made the service work (just) with two units (at 1tph).
If 230s can do the route faster, there might be enough turn-round time to extend to Birkenhead North again - but needs to be proved.
Originally, the LNER/BR service went to Seacombe, but diverted to New Brighton when the Seacombe branch closed (for the Wallasey tunnel access road to be built).

However, the future plan is 2tph, one all stops and one skip-stopping. This will still require four units but will allow a longer recovery time at the termini. Basically, two units will do all stops one way and skip-stop in the opposite direction, whilst the other two will do the inverse. This could allow re-extension to Birkenhead North, although it would require the skip-stop service to skip more stations than terminating at Bidston would. The running on a busy stretch of Merseyrail could cause issues however. Ideally, it'd be good at have the Borderlands services on their own track between Bidston Junction and Birkenhead North, with their own terminal platform. Perhaps a single track south of the existing tracks and then skew the Merseyrail services to serve platforms 1 & 2 with the Borderlands terminators on 3. Birkenhead North as an interchange offers double the Liverpool-bound frequency than Bidston does plus the addition of the New Brighton services. Add to this the doubling of the frequency and the line would become a lot more useful.

Running non-standard diesel stock into the Merseyrail underground system is not going to happen. Merseyrail is a metropolitan system and should have a standard (or very similar) fleet, all electric and under one operating company (ideally, there'd be vertical integration too). The only way I'd even entertain the idea of incorporating the Borderlands lines would be if the line was electrified (partially or wholly) and the services were transferred to Merseyrail. But even then, I'm not certain the line is necessarily a good fit. For starters, the length of the line would make it by far the largest branch on the system (and no, Southport-Hunts Cross is not a single branch despite through services). It's a predominately rural line serving mostly very small places with the only place of any notable size being Wrexham at the far end. The Halton Curve services will allow direct services into Lime Street with at least a similar and probably notably quicker, journey time.

I personally think Chester & Southport are about the absolute limit of the sort of system Merseyrail is, considering its metro-type rolling stock with no toilets and the call at every station convention. Sure, you could argue to change the system by adding fast trains, toilets (and no doubt first class and a buffet trolley also) having trains with a more long/medium distance layout which prioritise top speed over acceleration but then you compromise the inner network who will surely have lower frequencies due to the fast services and trains which aren't as appropriate for metro services or a mixed fleet of metro trains and longer distance which would be an inconsistent experience for an inner metro passenger and more of a logistical challenge than operating a uniform fleet. You could split the line as stations at the south most likely mainly use the line to commute to Wrexham anyway rather than head northwards and a shorter line may be a better fit for Merseyrail and allow a metro-type service for the Wirral stations.

The main question then is where you break the line - with Shotton, Neston, Heswall and a new station at Woodchurch all being common suggestions. Shotton is probably similar, distance-wise to Chester so could be just about doable, plus it provides interchange with the North Wales Coast line. Neston is more urban and in a local authority area that already has Merseyrail (Cheshire West) and therefore an extant agreement on Merseytravel tickets. Heswall is actually in the Merseytravel area whilst Woodchurch has been Merseytravel's most recent preference due to its road links. The problem is, the further south you cut the line, the less viable the resultant diesel island would be and the further north you cut it, the less it's worth bother making the alteration. Merseytravel's Woodchurch propsal would mean a relatively short branch of the Wirral line off Bidston with only two intermediate stations at Beechwood/Noctorum (new station) & Upton. If this could justify 4tph, then it would maybe be worth it but I've often seen it envisioned with only 2tph which doesn't seem worth it to me and would mean a worse interchange point from the remaining diesel line than Bidston currently is and certainly what Birkenhead North would be.

There's probably no ideal solution but I'm minded to support leaving the line as it is; ideally with an extension to terminate at Birkenhead North. A 2tph frequency with a change at Birkenhead North which offers 8tph into Liverpool, as well as 4tph to New Brighton & 4tph to West Kirby would be much better than 1tph with a change at Bidston which offers 4tph to Liverpool, 4tph to West Kirby and 0tph to New Brighton.
 

edwin_m

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The idea a few years ago was to open a new station to serve the industry/employment area just north of Hawarden Bridge (which would close). The electric service would turn back at Shotton and the diesel service at the new station, thus linking both to the site of the jobs and limiting hte extent of electrification. The timetable would be organised so one service came out of a turnback just after the other one passed through, so through passengers would have a same-platform connection at one of the stations served by both.
 

kieron

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As far as I can tell, Liverpool City Region Combined Authority's current idea is to wait until the effect of the the enhanced service on the Wrexham-Bidston line become apparent. They do list three station proposals on the line, but they haven't worked out if there's a business case for any of them.

They'd like to run trains on battery power between Ellesmere Port and Helsby, but the only othe line they discuss this for is the one from Ormskirk.
 

Bovverboy

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They'd like to run trains on battery power between Ellesmere Port and Helsby

Which effectively says they're happy about running battery/electric hybrids around the Liverpool City Centre loop.
 

The_Engineer

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Except they are (if fitted with exhaust scrubbers).
No again. No internal combustion engine passenger vehicles are allowed in the single track tunnels. The W&B Class 230s will NOT operate the loop in their as ordered configuration.
 

Bletchleyite

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No again. No internal combustion engine passenger vehicles are allowed in the single track tunnels. The W&B Class 230s will NOT operate the loop in their as ordered configuration.

I don't doubt that they won't, indeed I think they won't in any form whether with shoes/batteries or otherwise - it'll be new Class 777s of some form if they do - hence the order for limited lifespan 230s instead of more FLIRTs. I was just making the point that diesel is not completely banned from the tunnels as the MPVs do operate (though as you say not in passenger use).

I *could* see the 230s getting as far as James St platform 2 *if* the batteries are good enough. But not further. And I suspect they'd have specified third rail capability if that was likely.
 

Chester1

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No again. No internal combustion engine passenger vehicles are allowed in the single track tunnels. The W&B Class 230s will NOT operate the loop in their as ordered configuration.

A half hourly service combined with extension to Birkenhead North to double the connections and decent recovery time would a huge improvement. I can't see an extension to Liverpool happening unless the 230s are equipped with batteries for the tunnels. Terminating at James Street platform 2 would be the best compromise if they did. Battery 777s would be a very large investment for a line that has received basically no investment for longer than I can remember.
 

B&I

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Yes, like the one at Oakland Airport, California.

It had not occurred to me that Peel's ripoff profits from airport parking and drop off charges were the major obstacle to progress. But I think you have hit the nail on the head. Thank you.


I should make clear that I don't actually know this, but it would be consistent with Peel's toytown approach to business generally
 
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algytaylor

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Would it be feasible for ..

1. Wales and Borders to agree to let Merseyrail to run some of the services on the line (say from Neston to the Liverpool loop)
2. Merseyrail to agree to let Wales & Borders run their services through to Birkenhead North/James St/the loop [which one dependent on how suitable the rolling stock is]

That'd seem to allow both W&B and Merseyrail to make a good thing out of the line -- stations that naturally fit in the Merseyrail structure can have a service provided by Merseyrail, whilst Wrexham/Flintshire gets a direct service to a Liverpool station, depending on how well they intend to fund it
 

krus_aragon

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Would it be feasible for ..

1. Wales and Borders to agree to let Merseyrail to run some of the services on the line (say from Neston to the Liverpool loop)
2. Merseyrail to agree to let Wales & Borders run their services through to Birkenhead North/James St/the loop [which one dependent on how suitable the rolling stock is]

That'd seem to allow both W&B and Merseyrail to make a good thing out of the line -- stations that naturally fit in the Merseyrail structure can have a service provided by Merseyrail, whilst Wrexham/Flintshire gets a direct service to a Liverpool station, depending on how well they intend to fund it

In principle, yes, if both parties are happy with that. I'm unsure whether there'd be enough demand at Neston, Heswall and Upton to warrant overlapping train services there: most of the stations (and patronage, as I understand) are south of the border.
 

daikilo

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In principle, yes, if both parties are happy with that. I'm unsure whether there'd be enough demand at Neston, Heswall and Upton to warrant overlapping train services there: most of the stations (and patronage, as I understand) are south of the border.

I don't think the W&B TOC can "allow" Merseyrail to operate services allocated to them, or they to extend beyond Bidston, without a new financial agreement (subsidies, contributions etc.). However, there is no reason at all why the 3 or 4 parties cannot decide to agree on a new sharing for such an operation. If I recall correctly, it will have been at least 50 years in coming, if it does, and I believe it should in one form or another.

As to traffic from the Wirral stations, I am totally convinced that an improvement in frequency and direct running to Liverpool would work wonders. Many say the stations (apart from Neston) are not well located, which is true, but it is only a question of minutes to tip the balance. I would also build an additional station at Little Neston/Ness or run a very frequent pick-up bus.
 

B&I

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I don't think the W&B TOC can "allow" Merseyrail to operate services allocated to them, or they to extend beyond Bidston, without a new financial agreement (subsidies, contributions etc.). However, there is no reason at all why the 3 or 4 parties cannot decide to agree on a new sharing for such an operation. If I recall correctly, it will have been at least 50 years in coming, if it does, and I believe it should in one form or another.

As to traffic from the Wirral stations, I am totally convinced that an improvement in frequency and direct running to Liverpool would work wonders. Many say the stations (apart from Neston) are not well located, which is true, but it is only a question of minutes to tip the balance. I would also build an additional station at Little Neston/Ness or run a very frequent pick-up bus.


New stations at Woodchurch and Noctorum would have be reasonably located for residential areas, and at least one of those would be a good location for a decent sized park and ride adjacent to the M53.
 

MarkyT

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New stations at Woodchurch and Noctorum would have be reasonably located for residential areas, and at least one of those would be a good location for a decent sized park and ride adjacent to the M53.
Surely Noctorum is already served by Upton station.
Woodchurch looks an excellent site, where the railway crosses the A552:
  • A552 is a major bus artery hence plenty of opportunity for interchange to access the wider area
  • Plenty of housing within a kilometer walking distance
  • North Cheshire Trading Estate nearby as an employment destination
  • Right next to M53 J3 with plenty of space available for car parking.
 

Heartland

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Whilst there has been several transfers of lines between franchises, the classic being my former employer Central Trains who lost a network through such transfers, would the former Wrexham, Mold & Connahs Quay main line benefit from such a change?

Perhaps a transfer to Merseytravel may provide some alternative train destinations, as has been suggested, indeed it would help with links to Birkenhead or Liverpool- although Birkenhead may be a useful destination. Whether the class 230 is suitable for this line is another issue. Are they suited to the gradients on this line?
 

B&I

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Surely Noctorum is already served by Upton station.
Woodchurch looks an excellent site, where the railway crosses the A552:
  • A552 is a major bus artery hence plenty of opportunity for interchange to access the wider area
  • Plenty of housing within a kilometer walking distance
  • North Cheshire Trading Estate nearby as an employment destination
  • Right next to M53 J3 with plenty of space available for car parking.

I may not be picking the right areas for proposed stations. I had in mind between Bidston and Upton, which is a distance of over 2 miles with residential areas lining most of the distance between them
 

MarkyT

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I may not be picking the right areas for proposed stations. I had in mind between Bidston and Upton, which is a distance of over 2 miles with residential areas lining most of the distance between them
I think you may have in mind a site about 1km north of Upton station, about 1.5km south of Bidston. Going by the local bus stops I think the area is known as Beechwood. It seems to be a local centre with a primary school, leisure facilties, library and some shops. Probably quite a good site for a station, if it's not too close to its neighbouring stations.
 
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