Future of Wrexham-Bidston line, inc. possible franchise swap etc.

[158756]

They clearly don't want it. There's no reason why Merseyrail should not have it, as most of it is in their area

It wouldn't make sense for Merseyrail to operate one DMU though, so until someone comes up with funding for an isolated non-standard electrification project with few passengers it makes perfect sense for Northern to have it - to the extent that it makes any sense for any line to have that level of service.

 

[tavistock]

It wouldn't make sense for Merseyrail to operate one DMU though, so until someone comes up with funding for an isolated non-standard electrification project with few passengers it makes perfect sense for Northern to have it - to the extent that it makes any sense for any line to have that level of service.

perhaps if Northern were to run the service between Hooton and Manchester it would make more sense

 

[317 forever]

I heard 1 report that 230s would be introduced on this line next May. Then the next report suggested that Crewe - Chester would be first then Wrexham - Bidston later, potentially the end of next year. I wonder which line will be first in the end, hopefully Wrexham - Bidston as this is relatively self-contained, unlike Crewe - Chester.

 

[sw1ller]

Are they still going on the Llandudno branch to Blaenau Ffestiniog? If they’re not allowed through the tunnels in Liverpool, they can’t be allowed through the 3522 metres of Ffestiniog tunnel??

 

[krus_aragon]

Are they still going on the Llandudno branch to Blaenau Ffestiniog? If they’re not allowed through the tunnels in Liverpool, they can’t be allowed through the 3522 metres of Ffestiniog tunnel??

Yes, they're going to start the first unit on the Conwy Valley, all the way to Blaenau.

Bear in mind that the two tunnels are of a very different nature: Ffestiniog tunnel has its highest point at its middle, so you could freewheel a poorly vehicle out of there. With regards to the Liverpool loop line, I suspect that their rules probably disallow steam trains to run through, that's certainly not the case for the Ffestiniog!

 

[sw1ller]

Yes, they're going to start the first unit on the Conwy Valley, all the way to Blaenau.

Bear in mind that the two tunnels are of a very different nature: Ffestiniog tunnel has its highest point at its middle, so you could freewheel a poorly vehicle out of there. With regards to the Liverpool loop line, I suspect that their rules probably disallow steam trains to run through, that's certainly not the case for the Ffestiniog!

Ah, I didn’t know about the gradients. Thanks for that. Makes a lot more sense.

 

[edwin_m]

The Liverpool tunnels have stations in them and the frequency of trains means there will always be several trains in each tunnel. So if there is something like a train fire, there are many more passengers at risk.

 

[krus_aragon]

Ah, I didn’t know about the gradients. Thanks for that. Makes a lot more sense.

The gradients are mainly for drainage: groundwater that seeps through the tunnel walls flows out of the tunnel without any need for pumping. Obviously this can work with a mountain tunnel, but not with an underground tunnel such as in Liverpool.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are they still going on the Llandudno branch to Blaenau Ffestiniog? If they’re not allowed through the tunnels in Liverpool, they can’t be allowed through the 3522 metres of Ffestiniog tunnel??

The primary issue with the tunnels in Liverpool is the air-breathing humans stood around on the platforms who don't want gassing each time one goes through (or setting on fire if one catches fire due to the diesel on board). This rather differs from a tunnel with no pedestrian access.

 

[sw1ller]

The primary issue with the tunnels in Liverpool is the air-breathing humans stood around on the platforms who don't want gassing each time one goes through (or setting on fire if one catches fire due to the diesel on board). This rather differs from a tunnel with no pedestrian access.

I thought it had more to do with track access for a driver and the lack of a forward facing door on the modified units.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought it had more to do with track access for a driver and the lack of a forward facing door on the modified units.

That may also be relevant (though if a door was needed I'm sure they could add one).

 

[kieron]

The primary issue with the tunnels in Liverpool is the air-breathing humans stood around on the platforms who don't want gassing each time one goes through (or setting on fire if one catches fire due to the diesel on board). This rather differs from a tunnel with no pedestrian access.

The stations in the tunnels are pretty draughty, even when there isn't a train going through. I think the primary issue is that introducing a new service costs a lot of money, and no-one has offered to pay. Once that happens, a lot of other issues could turn out to be quite easy to solve.

 

[hwl]

The stations in the tunnels are pretty draughty, even when there isn't a train going through. I think the primary issue is that introducing a new service costs a lot of money, and no-one has offered to pay. Once that happens, a lot of other issues could turn out to be quite easy to solve.

Merseytravel's finances will be under a bit of strain when the new stock arrives so they aren't going to be looking for more cost any time soon.

 

[B&I]

Merseytravel's finances will be under a bit of strain when the new stock arrives so they aren't going to be looking for more cost any time soon.

This is thw perpetual problem.we encounter. Surely the best chance of attracting more passengers to Bidston-Wrexham, and makimg it more profitable, is by integration into Merseyrail and introducing a more frequent, direct servicw into Liverpool. But nobody seems to want to spend the initial spondulicks to achieve this. And so we limp along with a fifth rate service, in both financial and performance terms

 

[Meerkat]

When (ok if) Merseyrail went to Shotton (most sensible limit imo) wouldn’t it be better to close Bidston station and build a new Bidston station on the Shotton line at the North end of Bidston itself? More convenient and less isolated, speed up West Kirby, and presumably improve reliability as trains would clear the junction faster?

 

[splashoutradio]

Apologies if this has been mentioned already, can't see any reference in the last few pages. Unless it's an issue with the timetable data, which isn't beyond the realms of possibility, it looks as though the line between Wrecsam and Bidston may be in for an improved Sunday service from December.

Source: www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables

 

[Chester1]

This is thw perpetual problem.we encounter. Surely the best chance of attracting more passengers to Bidston-Wrexham, and makimg it more profitable, is by integration into Merseyrail and introducing a more frequent, direct servicw into Liverpool. But nobody seems to want to spend the initial spondulicks to achieve this. And so we limp along with a fifth rate service, in both financial and performance terms

The introduction of 230s, a half hourly service and possible extension to Birkenhead North are good improvements. The fast acceleration of the 230s will significantly increase reliablity by creating some recovery time and a half hourly service will improve the appeal of the service. If the improved service fills up then the business case for incorporating all or part of the line into Merseyrail will be much better. Merseytravel have an option for an extra 10 units and only 4 would be neccessary to take over the line. The 230s also buy time for the Merseyrail/Stadler battery trials to be done.

 

[8H]

Apologies if this has been mentioned already, can't see any reference in the last few pages. Unless it's an issue with the timetable data, which isn't beyond the realms of possibility, it looks as though the line between Wrecsam and Bidston may be in for an improved Sunday service from December.

Source: www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables

Thanks for this! Looks really good and an interesting “Express” from Wrexham in the early evening around 17.40 to balance the next trip from Bidston back to Wrexham.

 

[uxm]

We already know the future it's staying part of the wales and borders and is the north east wales metro using class 230s.

 

[PHILIPE]

Apologies if this has been mentioned already, can't see any reference in the last few pages. Unless it's an issue with the timetable data, which isn't beyond the realms of possibility, it looks as though the line between Wrecsam and Bidston may be in for an improved Sunday service from December.

Source: www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables

RTT is showing an increased service

 

[krus_aragon]

We already know the future it's staying part of the wales and borders and is the north east wales metro using class 230s.

What we don't know is what'll come of the negotiations between Merseytravel(?) and the Welsh Government about extending the service through from Bidston to Liverpool (with different rolling stock). It might become a joint-branded service, for example.

 

[michael74]

What we don't know is what'll come of the negotiations between Merseytravel(?) and the Welsh Government about extending the service through from Bidston to Liverpool (with different rolling stock). It might become a joint-branded service, for example.

How about, a service from Wrexham calls at Bidston then Birkenhead North then non stop to James St Platform 2? Its a double tunnel so no need for cab doors.

 

[PR1Berske]

We already know the future it's staying part of the wales and borders and is the north east wales metro using class 230s.

We also know that TfW and Merseyrail have been in discussions about the line.

 

[TheSel]

How about, a service from Wrexham calls at Bidston then Birkenhead North then non stop to James St Platform 2? Its a double tunnel so no need for cab doors.

Nice idea, but not entirely true. You'd need to use Hamilton Square platform 3 and the 'burrowing junction' on the return to Welsh Wales - that section is single bore.

 

[michael74]

Nice idea, but not entirely true. You'd need to use Hamilton Square platform 3 and the 'burrowing junction' on the return to Welsh Wales - that section is single bore.

Oh yea, forgot about Hamilton Square.

 

[uxm]

What we don't know is what'll come of the negotiations between Merseytravel(?) and the Welsh Government about extending the service through from Bidston to Liverpool (with different rolling stock). It might become a joint-branded service, for example.

That will not be happening as the class 230 is diesel and 630 V 4th rail only, this would mean they would have to add a 4th rail and decrease the voltage meaning the merseyrail trains can't run, It will cost a lot to convert the class 230 into third rail operation if possible, the franchise agreement is finalised and there is no wrexham to liverpool service in the tfw rail franchise.

 

[PR1Berske]

Well thanks @uxm , I think that means you've killed off this thread stone cold dead.

 

[uxm]

Well thanks @uxm , I think that means you've killed off this thread stone cold dead.

Not really there is a future but that is after 2033 and the north east wales metro is due to open by 2035 as stated by the welsh government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Wales_Metro any of these future plans if they will proceed are a long way away and will not occur until the north east wales metro is launched in the 2030s. The discussions the welsh government is having with merseyrail is regarding including them in the NORTH EAST WALES METRO as a service and not to extend the wrexham to bidston.

 

[uxm]

We will see nothing until the next wales and borders franchise in 2033 where the class 230s will be replaced

 

[uxm]

Further to my point regarding the class 230s, they have been converted to pure AC trains and the DC systems have been removed including the DC motors and the diesel-electric engines generate AC electricity for the train.