Future of Wrexham-Bidston line, inc. possible franchise swap etc.

[uxm]

Further details regarding the north east wales metro can be found here : https://beta.gov.wales/sites/defaul...st-wales-metro-moving-north-wales-forward.pdf

 

[krus_aragon]

We will see nothing until the next wales and borders franchise in 2033 where the class 230s will be replaced

If the class 230s are to be kept (and kept on Wrexham-Bidston until the end of the franchise) then what you say is true. Alternatively, on page 1 of this thread, tbtc posited an alternative scenario, including:

If you want to give the Borderlands branchline to Merseyrail, in the first instance you give it separate stock to the rest of the W&B franchise, you allow sufficient additional trains to permit a frequency upgrade (so that you can prove whether a “one fast, one slow” approach works)…

…but instead of shelling out on new units with a forty year life ahead of them, you get some redundant stock that can be cheaply tarted up for the next five/ten years, just enough to tide you over until Merseyrail have had their 777s running smoothly so that they are confident about ordering some more of them for the “nice to have” extensions beyond their current borders.

(don’t run before you can walk, don’t try to run round the “loop” just yet, grow the passenger demand gradually, increase the frequency to Bidston with the 230s before you start getting ambitious about a through service to Birkenhead with one additional 230, don’t try running into central Liverpool any time soon)

I suspect that tbtc's ideas are closer to the current plan, and that we might get developments in this franchise, though that may not actually involve gifting the line to Merseyrail ( which might not be politically popular).

As corroborative evidence for this, why would KeolisAmey have tabled a plan where all lines throughout North and Mid Wales (including the Conwy Valley eventually) are operated by a new uniform fleet, but the Borderlands line is given a microfleet of five refurbished vehicles? It strongly suggests that they're a stop-gap solution.

 

[The_Engineer]

That will not be happening as the class 230 is diesel and 630 V 4th rail only, this would mean they would have to add a 4th rail and decrease the voltage meaning the merseyrail trains can't run, It will cost a lot to convert the class 230 into third rail operation if possible, the franchise agreement is finalised and there is no wrexham to liverpool service in the tfw rail franchise

Can you verify where your info has come from? AFAIU the production Class 230 has new 750V supplied traction equipment and auxiliaries, and they have been totally rewired to the extent of just needing network rail compatible shoe-gear and shoe leads to the underframe to be 750V dc third rail supplied.

All part of their ability to be powered by a number of different power sources including 750Vdc from the diesel generator. In addition the battery only design would utilise shore supply 750V dc pos and neg at each end of their route picked up by underframe shoe-gear and the supply is switched on only when the 230 parks over it......

 

[krus_aragon]

Further to my point regarding the class 230s, they have been converted to pure AC trains and the DC systems have been removed including the DC motors and the diesel-electric engines generate AC electricity for the train.

It's true that the DC motors have been replaced with AC motors, but the battery packs are by nature DC, so the 230s have three-phase power inverters to generate the AC required for the motors. The long and short of this is that you could use a conductor rail as an alternative source of the DC that the batteries currently provide.

The idea of refitting the conductor rail shoes is mentioned in this video posted in the Class 230 thread, which is well worth watching throughout for a good explanation of how the power systems of the Class 230 operate:

Yes, it was made by Trains TrainsTrains & is about 16 minutes long.

 

[uxm]

If that service was to become a reality this will be after 2033 I hope you understand that, we have to wait for the north east wales metro.

 

[headshot119]

If that service was to become a reality this will be after 2033 I hope you understand that, we have to wait for the north east wales metro.

There's absolutely nothing to stop Merseytrave taking over part of the line before 2033. Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true.

The Welsh government have the power to vary the terms of the new franchise.

 

[krus_aragon]

If that service was to become a reality this will be after 2033 I hope you understand that, we have to wait for the north east wales metro.

I hope that it will take less than 15 years (if passenger numbers increase as hoped with the 230s' more frequent service). With the doubling of the frequency in 2021, I'd like to think that the viability of such a change should be apparent within a few years of the introduction of the 230s. A follow-on order of Merseyrail's new stock shouldn't take more than two years or so (they're building and delivering 52 sets from scratch in 4 years). Even being conservative, this could be done and dusted by 2028.

As for the "North East Wales Metro" as a whole, I agree that we'll have to wait some time for that to be completed: it still seems like a very nebulous idea at the moment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As corroborative evidence for this, why would KeolisAmey have tabled a plan where all lines throughout North and Mid Wales (including the Conwy Valley eventually) are operated by a new uniform fleet, but the Borderlands line is given a microfleet of five refurbished vehicles? It strongly suggests that they're a stop-gap solution.

Very true. They probably have 10-20 years' life in them, unlike brand-new MUs which could viably last 40 years or more. This is a useful niche for them, just as it is on the Marston Vale, where within 10 years or so they will likely see replacement with whatever EWR use on other services, with the relevant platform extensions being carried out to allow 2x24m to be used.

 

[splashoutradio]

Thanks for this! Looks really good and an interesting “Express” from Wrexham in the early evening around 17.40 to balance the next trip from Bidston back to Wrexham.

Having compiled an updated timetable for December, using data released by ATOC/RDG on Saturday, it looks like TfW have given up on the idea of an express train on Sundays, and opted to rejig the times to allow all trains to stop at all stations. It's table 158 at www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables, if anyone's interested. RealTimeTrains is showing these changes, too.

 

[swt_passenger]

Further to my point regarding the class 230s, they have been converted to pure AC trains and the DC systems have been removed including the DC motors and the diesel-electric engines generate AC electricity for the train.

There’s really no such thing as a ‘pure AC’ train. The input to a modern variable frequency 3 phase drive is still a DC source. That DC can be derived from DC third or fourth rail, from transformed and rectified AC OHLE, or from an onboard generator, even if it’s AC (an alternator).

 

[8H]

Having compiled an updated timetable for December, using data released by ATOC/RDG on Saturday, it looks like TfW have given up on the idea of an express train on Sundays, and opted to rejig the times to allow all trains to stop at all stations. It's table 158 at www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables, if anyone's interested. RealTimeTrains is showing these changes, too.

Many thanks for the updated info! And the link too!

 

[Jona26]

Having compiled an updated timetable for December, using data released by ATOC/RDG on Saturday, it looks like TfW have given up on the idea of an express train on Sundays, and opted to rejig the times to allow all trains to stop at all stations. It's table 158 at www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables, if anyone's interested. RealTimeTrains is showing these changes, too.

Nice to see that time travel still exists on this line with the train managing to depart before it arrives at Wrexham Central

 

[uxm]

Everyone , the 230s will switch to battery power to allow tunnel running and there is no 3rd rail.

 

[sw1ller]

Everyone , the 230s will switch to battery power to allow tunnel running and there is no 3rd rail.

Where have you got this info from? First I’ve heard that we’ll be running in the tunnels.

 

[yorkie]

Everyone , the 230s will switch to battery power to allow tunnel running and there is no 3rd rail.

Do you have a source for this please?

 

[B&I]

Given that Merseyrail are supposed to be starting trials with battery-equipped class 777s, it seems very unlikely that anyone would be planning to run alternative battery-powered units onto their network (useful as joining all or at least some of Wrexham-Bidston into Merseyrail would be)

 

[sw1ller]

What was the outcome from the debate that there were no front facing cab doors for driver emergency egress?? It was a while ago and I’m not rereading this whole thread.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What was the outcome from the debate that there were no front facing cab doors for driver emergency egress?? It was a while ago and I’m not rereading this whole thread.

Is there any update to this query above?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there any update to this query above?

Re the Conwy Valley? I believe it was found to be nonsense, because units with no end doors have operated there for years (the tunnel is wide enough to evacuate out of side doors), and I believe TfW have said they still will go there (subject to it not having flooded out again).

 

[sdrennan]

I wanted to use this line last week to head south towards Shrewsbury but the first train to Wrexham was not till after 0800
This service model is hopeless and meant me driving yo Wrexham instead of a 5 minute walk.
Does anyone know if there are plans to improve the timetable and start earlier southbound

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the title of this thread, the possibility of a franchise swap is mentioned. Apologies if I have missed the answer to that point, but have any such discussions taken place yet?

 

[krus_aragon]

I'm not aware of anything in the public domain since Ken Skates' statement this time last year (after the franchise announcement) that talks with Merseyrail about a direct Borderlands service into Liverpool were at an "advanced stage". See the Daily Post article here.

I wouldn't expect to see any more news on the discussions until the Class 230s have been introduced to the line, and probably the increased service frequency too (in 2021). Until they know how passenger numbers respond to these improvements, I doubt there'll be anything concrete enough to make new announcements about.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The most feasible "first go" would seem to me to be to run into the spare platform at James St on third rail, assuming fitting third rail back to the 230s would not be too difficult. That could be used as a trial to see if it justified ordering more FLIRTs with a battery or diesel capability.

 

[PHILIPE]

As a new franchise has only fairly recently been taken over by TFW I should hardly think any change would happen in the near future.

 

[8H]

As a new franchise has only fairly recently been taken over by TFW I should hardly think any change would happen in the near future.

Given that TfW have effectively doubled the service frequency in future, and are liaising with Merseytravel so that everybody benefits I can’t see why people are getting exercised about the franchise geography. The complication, if there is one historically has been that the Mersey PTA boundary ended at Heswall. However Cheshire West (Neston) are now more enlightened and participatory than previously and Flintshire (Shotton) and TfW towards Wrexham have always been so. An outstanding problem however is the lack of multi modal multi operator and in this case multi national ticketing which needs to include Borderlands stations and adjacent bus routes along the whole route.

 

[Teithiwr]

The planned introduction of 2 tph, plus other potential improvements should help grow usage on the route. Given its links to Liverpool, major employment sites etc, there is probably significant suppressed demand that an improved service will release. The class 230 plus increased frequencies, better early / late / Sunday services etc should be the catalyst to demonstrate its growth potential.
Any potential franchise change only makes sense if the route is electrified or able to be served by Merseyrail because of the introduction of multi mode rolling stock. Investment of this kind is much easier to justify if there is an increase in usage due to the better service etc.
The planned improvement is good news therefore, but only if there is a cross-border partnership that works to resolve other barriers as identified above. My sense is that the basis of such a partnership is there now.

 

[sw1ller]

Re the Conwy Valley? I believe it was found to be nonsense, because units with no end doors have operated there for years (the tunnel is wide enough to evacuate out of side doors), and I believe TfW have said they still will go there (subject to it not having flooded out again).

Can confirm. Completely nonsense. But it will limit them from any expansion into the Mersey tunnels. It’s the least of the problems they’re having with them anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can confirm. Completely nonsense. But it will limit them from any expansion into the Mersey tunnels. It’s the least of the problems they’re having with them anyway.

They do seem to have settled down a bit more on the Marston Vale and we are hearing about far fewer problems. For instance I just looked and so far there have been no delays or cancellations today. Perhaps the lessons with those ones will reduce any issues with the Welsh ones?

I'd imagine the Hamilton Square layout would cause issues with no end doors for the James St idea, thinking on (the outbound trains towards Bidston go via a single bore tunnel), so Birkenhead North is probably as far as they could go - the DMUs did at one point, didn't they?

 

[PR1Berske]

Would love to see the signs.

"Birkenhead North
De Penbedw"

 

[headshot119]

They do seem to have settled down a bit more on the Marston Vale and we are hearing about far fewer problems. For instance I just looked and so far there have been no delays or cancellations today. Perhaps the lessons with those ones will reduce any issues with the Welsh ones?

I'd imagine the Hamilton Square layout would cause issues with no end doors for the James St idea, thinking on (the outbound trains towards Bidston go via a single bore tunnel), so Birkenhead North is probably as far as they could go - the DMUs did at one point, didn't they?

They did indeed, and although it's complete conjecture on my part, I suspect it's what will happen long term when the service frequency is upped on the Bidston line.